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  1. #141
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlamarAtMMOC View Post
    So is your argument that the holy trinity stifles creativity? Because I have seen some pretty fancy fights involving this 'holy trinity' that so many GW2 fans seem to think is the 'second coming'...

    You're saying that GW2 'can' be more creative, and that some options open up because of the lack of a healer/tank centric requirement for boss fights... I say that you're right... A-Net can be creative, and come up with some neat fights that don't rely on the tried-and-true, but I have yet to see it... And it doesn't mean that trinity based content isn't creative or that non-trinity content is not restricted...

    -Alamar
    That big undead dragon that I can't get the name right now (Whenever I try to search his name it comes up with tequila) is a good example of a good fight that has no focus on a single person healing tanking or doing damage. And there are so many things going on in the fight that you could do the fight 4 or 5 different times and not do the same thing you did last time. Or you could try to do everything, blow up bone walls, kill creepers, protect mechanics, attack the dragon, repair the cannons, rez players and npcs. I think it's a very creative fight that doesn't rely on the tried and true at all.

    On top of that, we've only seen 2 fights in the game that are that big? Or at least people have played 2, that one and the shatterer. We haven't really seen anything from 5-man dungeons for the most part except for a rather poor video of 5 people just doing stuff in an enclosed space, which really doesn't show anything new or interesting.

    Yes, being held to the holy trinity can be restrictive to creating content. With the holy trinity you can't make truely dynamic events that are always challenging because you have to take into consideration that a tank might not be there, or a healer. If the holy trinity isn't there, you can make content way more difficult because you don't have to design it around: This is only going to be possible if you have a tank with you, or a healer. Instead you can just make difficult encounters around: Ok, people are here, they can do this. Or, there are 14 thieves here, they can do this.

    Enemies don't need threat tables because no one is going to be tanking an enemy, you can do a lot more with a fight just without that restriction alone. Yes, you can be creative when designing a fight with the trinity, I'm not denying that, Blizzard has made plenty of good fights that are different and fun in their own way, but not having the trinity just allows for more freedom, and in return, more room for creativity.
    Last edited by Malthurius; 2011-11-03 at 08:37 PM.
    "Questions are for those seeking answers. Those who have answers are those who have asked questions." -Mike R. (Malthurius)

  2. #142
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlamarAtMMOC View Post
    I'm seeing it all from two posters, maybe three... Once person writes out a well thought argument/response, and these two others rage in, throwing insults, adding fake arguments, etc...

    Interestingly, they're both very typical debating techniques, and I'm enjoying half the debate : )

    -Alamar

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-03 at 03:37 PM ----------



    So is your argument that the holy trinity stifles creativity? Because I have seen some pretty fancy fights involving this 'holy trinity' that so many GW2 fans seem to think is the 'second coming'...

    You're saying that GW2 'can' be more creative, and that some options open up because of the lack of a healer/tank centric requirement for boss fights... I say that you're right... A-Net can be creative, and come up with some neat fights that don't rely on the tried-and-true, but I have yet to see it... And it doesn't mean that trinity based content isn't creative or that non-trinity content is not restricted...

    -Alamar
    Oh don't get me wrong their are totally some creative fights with the holy trinity, however without it there's just so much more you can do! I really hope anet takes full advantage of it because we could end up seeing some really kick as fights!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  3. #143
    Brewmaster Newbryn's Avatar
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    A nice little video explaining gear progression http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3kb6OSyGRU
    Claymore is Epic again, eat it priscilla fanboys.

  4. #144
    Donno how its going to be but should be fun

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by AlamarAtMMOC View Post
    And this is precisely why I'm worried GW2 will be too easy... Or rather, lack long term appeal...

    As a gamer, I am at a point where, when I see a new fight for the first time, I consume it... Assuming I can get a full group of similarily skilled people, GW2 content offers very little challenge... We'll learn the game, learn the character, and then any 'new' content thrown at us won't require any adaptation. There will be 'void' zones not to stand in, attacks to dodge/avoid, etc... But it's all the same fight, over and over with different boss models...

    At least with stat progression, there is progression, albeit forced/fake... Perception is everything, and the illusion that you will down a boss this week, because of last weeks upgrades, keeps people playing...

    -Alamar
    Can you say wow or any other AAA MMO with a similar raid setup is any different than what you fear when it comes to fights being the same thing over and over? If you take any raid incounter in wow and remove the mechanics that are only relevant to tanks and healers what are you left with? Sometimes your left with nothing (patchwerk) most of the time your left with a small handful of mechanics where players have to dodge something or target switch or click on something or kite something. All those mechanics that make a boss fight more than just a different model on the screen to DPS can be included in a combat model that does not involve the trinity. There is very little adaptation involved in tank gets smacked around, healers try to keep up and not die to fire. Most of the adaptation needed involves what new thing the boss throws at random peopel that must be dodged or what special hoop you have to jump through to do damage and mechanics like that do not exclusively need to involve tanks/healers to be different.

    The problem with stat progression is two fold. First as you say the illusion that you'll win this week because of last weeks upgrades is true. However are you winning because you are actualy doing better this week or do you just have a bigger crutch to lean on. Not everybody is satisfied with knowing they only won because the boss got nerfed, either through dev action or just pileing on "Gear Bonus Points" untill you overwhelmed it with numbers. Look at how much QQ went on about makeing the game easy mode after the firelands nerfs? My guild had been 3/7H prior to the nerfs and had been makeing steady progress on the rest. we were 6/7 the day after the nerfs and while the gear was nice it was a rather holow victory as we did not get any better over night, the bosses got worse. Hell 2 of the bosses we'd killed previously we messed up so badly we should have wiped but the nerfs turned it into a one shot.

    The second issue with stat progression is it forces you to keep going long after you've "Won". So you've sloged your way through the hardest dungeon and beaten the most epic boss ever, your done right? Nope you've still got 8 weeks of farming that boss before you and your friends even have a chance of geting all the items you want off him, add 2-5 more months if the RNG loot gods hate you. Players get bored, theyve done it all, they QQ about slow updates, yet they go back and kill a boss they never want to see agian because he wont drop their epic helm.
    I dont know about everybody else but that does not sound like fun to me. I'd rather work to kill a boss, either get it down to skill or just everybody memorizing the dance steps at last, do it once or twice more to prove it was not a fluke and be done with it. Geting a kill and knowing it was only through shear weight of stat numbers is unsatisfying. Going back every week for months after you "Beat the game" because there is nothing else to do and you need the gear is mind numbingly dull. In my mind this is only a tactic to keep us paying every month while hideing the fact that they spent their entire budget on a very small amount of content.

    Without the trinity you wont nessicarly "Consume" the fights any faster or slower. Any mechanic a trinity fight can throw at you that is compelling and requires a change of stratagy has its parallel in a non trinity fight. Instead of a big damage spike to heal through or die you have a big damage spike to dodge or die. Need to tank swap? another player can run in and distract the boss with a devensive CD while the previous one backs out and heals up. Honestly I think without the trinity they can require More adaptation. Instead of comeing up with 2 mechanics for the tank to deal with 2 for the healers and 4 more for the DPS to juggle they can just come up with 8 mechanics you have to find a way to solve with the tools your group has

    Who is John Galt?

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Merendel View Post
    The problem with stat progression is two fold. First as you say the illusion that you'll win this week because of last weeks upgrades is true. However are you winning because you are actualy doing better this week or do you just have a bigger crutch to lean on. Not everybody is satisfied with knowing they only won because the boss got nerfed, either through dev action or just pileing on "Gear Bonus Points" untill you overwhelmed it with numbers.
    this made me think of something...if you really think about it, all stat progression actually gives you is a way to just "zerg" a boss.
    Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!!!

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  7. #147
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    this made me think of something...if you really think about it, all stat progression actually gives you is a way to just "zerg" a boss.
    Lol I thought of that too
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  8. #148
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    this made me think of something...if you really think about it, all stat progression actually gives you is a way to just "zerg" a boss.
    I zerged HC LK on my Paladin just to get the title, and Norm on my Hunter Alt just for the achievement.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  9. #149
    you argue using semantics and Strawman arguments and directly compare mechanics in this game and lump them with those in other games.
    The topic premise asks how GW2s endgame compares to other games. Comparisons are 100% valid within the context of the thread.

    All my comments are about the systems GW2 will use for Dungeons and DEs as endgame and my opinion on the viability of them as endgame.

    Show me a single strawman I raised itt. I patiently and validly responded to others in healthy spirit. Where others have used language like, "we can't convince fencers", "our answers are not satisfying to fencers", "maybe GW2 isn't for you" and explanation of game mechanics in design and intention (dubious) unnecessarily.

    This is poor dialogue and ill assumed message boarding by such users.

    There is nothing to answer for me. No need to change my mind. I know full well of the systems GW2 uses for DE/dungeons and of the esoteric approach Anet takes to their game creation.

    Contra to a lot of hype and in response to the thread premise; I simply do not believe DEs/dungeons will be a serious pursuit for serious PVE MMO players in GW2. Flatly.

    you claim because Rift did it the same holds true for GW2 yet GW2 has been developed more transparently than ANY OTHER game to date. when they talk about something it is IN the game and working as intended and they allow ANYONE who goes to a convention to try it out for themselves.
    As concerns other games-
    Currently, Rift is one of the best points of comparison to GW2. What you should be aware of is: A. Rift claimed their DEs were going to be a suitable challenge. B. Rift claimed their DEs would scale and they do! C. Rift had hands-on demos and SEVEN betas in which A and B were absolutely true to advertisement, design and practice.

    Once Rift's DEs hit live servers. Players trumped DEs handily. Just flat out. Players trumped all other DEs Rift added since then with even more complex objectives than the initial DEs.

    Furthermore, the topic invites our thoughts on DEs as a hardcore PVE pursuit on par with other games or PVP. So it is quite valid to speak about DEs as a mechanic as seen in other games such as Rift (above), WAR or OW content such as in FF11, EQ or Vanguard.

    Of course, GW2 will do and claims to do several things differently w/r/t DEs. That is fine. Yet from what I have seen of DEs & OW content? I don't have high hopes for GW2's DEs, OW content as endgame or for DEs as a gameplay concept regardless of game.

    Going on about more people making a DE tougher is unnecessary. Explaining DEs might have hierarchical goals is unnecessary. Mentioning how we might have to click stuff is, also, unnecessary.

    To go on about DE scaling misses the point of my skepticism entirely. Not only have these mechanics been see elsewhere, they are not fun gameplay mechanics- in my opinion.

    I believe DEs will be nothing more than more beer & pretzels gameplay ultimately despite hype, developer and fan assurances. That the design logic of having DEs open to any Sally Standsinfire and Joe Funspec! is not a gameplay system that will ever again support hardcore PVE guilds or PVErs in an MMO. No matter the game.

    so f*cking what? so what if you eventually run through all the different paths? is still does not invalidate them as being different and you act like the devs are not creative enough to make each path distinctively different both through design and mechanics. wow...how can you even try to use that as an argument?

    since the major differences between these games as far as end-game are the ''design" and "incentives"...yeah what else can it be besides stats increases through gear?
    FFS. I know full well of the structure and reasoning in GW2s dungeons.

    The exact number of paths, wings or alleyways- whatever you'd like to call them or the gameplay intentions of Anet are not terribly important to my point on the topic question: "Do you think the dungeons will make up for not having raids?"

    No, I don't think they will even be close to a replacement for raiding.

    Why? Because GW2s dungeons are too sparse (only 8) and there is no progress cycle to keep players and guilds going back once they have seen all that zone's variations. Even if GW2 dungeons had say, 100 paths-- it's STILL Catacombs I am running. With the only true hook being fancy hats and enemy beatdowns despite the 10th, 100th or 1000th run.

    I remain unconvinced of the major difference between path 1 and 2 as well. And yes of the creativity of Anet's designers to make the 100th run as appealing as the 10th.

    I never claimed all paths were the same. Not once.

    What I doubt is Path A in Catacombs suddenly being in outer space with jetpack equipped skeletons to defeat. More than likely Path A and B will have some textual transitions, layouts and different mob comps. Which is what early testers have said (Massively, GW podcast, TWIMMO) and the dev panel with at gamescom basically suggested was more than likely despite tooting their own horn(s).

    Trion used similar hype; "There might be workers that you killed early in a run, the second time through that wall might have collapsed and you are in a high tech tomb now!" And they weren't lying either- that does happen. Even mob compositions and boss tactics change between the two variations.

    GW2 dungeons have 2, 4, 8, 12..∞ variations? Sure, whatever. I suspect it'll much of the same as walking into lower Deepstirke and less, "OMG this is totally unlike Catacombs!"

    Number of variations? Irrelevant. Intention of Anet's dungeon design philosophy? Also irrelevant.

    People will get tired of zoning into Catacombs just to bash monsters with no real meat to that effort. Even if there were an infinite # of variations to Catacombs. Play Diablo 3.

    fanboy fantasy? i deal in things that can be shown and proven, you deal in fantasy and bring your hang ups from other games and try to apply them directly to GW2. GW2 may not be perfect, but it's a hell of alot closer to my concept of fun.
    if you were able to argue your points better instead of using conjecture and Strawman arguments, this might actually have turned into a meaningful discussion, but alas here we are.
    You have dealt in unneeded defenses to imaginary slights in your mind.

    Demonstrating a total lack of understanding of the topic premise and my opinions on that premise.

    Jumping to many ridiculous conclusions as you did here: http://tinyurl.com/44mrbed as an example. In response to me saying "it'll be interesting what ANet do with smaller groups."

    A perfect example of the kind of the ludicrous, off the handle and to say it bluntly, stupidity of your posts in an effort to defend; "GW2 may not be perfect, but it's a hell of alot closer to my concept of fun."

    A quintessentially charged by enthusiasm fanboy statement. Should be ashamed of yourself.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2011-11-04 at 11:15 PM.

  10. #150
    in short, what you keep telling is :
    GW2 has no raids, thus no relevant & challenging endgame.

    you call people stupid-ish and/or fanboy-ish but on the other side seem to take your own opinion as definite and unique truth (given how you ignore the said fanboys arguments). nothing more to say as you're clearly so much smarter than everyone else around anyway.

  11. #151
    Can this thread just be closed. this is going to turn ugly soon and the same argument has been thrown around a lot by both sides.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I remain unconvinced of the major difference between path 1 and 2 as well. And yes of the creativity of Anet's designers to make the 100th run as appealing as the 10th.
    Simple question: Is killing the Lich King the 100th time just as appealing as killing him the 10th time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Simple question: Is killing the Lich King the 100th time just as appealing as killing him the 10th time?
    With the incentive of continued progression/upgrade, yup.

    in short, what you keep telling is :
    GW2 has no raids, thus no relevant & challenging endgame.
    Um, no.

    Topic asks:
    Q. My question is, will you miss this kind of never-ending endgame?
    A. Nah. But I wonder if Anet can effectively replace it.

    Q. Do you think the dungeons will make up for no raids?
    A. Not a chance. Too sparse. It's a gamble.

    Q. Aside dungeons, are the open world dynamic events enough in terms of PvE content to keep the players who don't adore PvP busy?
    A. Nope. DEs are an inherently bad mechanic as endgame, I feel.

    Anything else outside of that is your baggage.

  14. #154
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morlem View Post
    Can this thread just be closed. this is going to turn ugly soon and the same argument has been thrown around a lot by both sides.
    I second this it's essentially fencers and that one dude making the same arguements over and over again
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  15. #155
    If you aren't willing to respond and defend your POV, then you don't have to read a message board. And probably shouldn't be posting on them either.

  16. #156
    I wanted to see a video. What I got was some guy talking over pictures.

  17. #157
    Herald of the Titans Mighty Blue Bear's Avatar
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    Well, I read most of the thread but not all of it (some of it's not worth reading).

    But I can say this: essentially, there is no "end-game content" because ALL CONTENT is "end-game content" in Guild Wars 2.

    If you can't accept that, then please, go play WoW or SWTOR or D3 or something else.

  18. #158
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    If you aren't willing to respond and defend your POV, then you don't have to read a message board. And probably shouldn't be posting on them either.
    Whose this aimed at?
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    If you aren't willing to respond and defend your POV, then you don't have to read a message board. And probably shouldn't be posting on them either.
    People have said the same thing I could say a hell of a lot better but hears my 2 cents. Gear as a motivation is just fuckin stupid in my eyes. Pixelated items should not be my motivation for playing a game. I should want to play a game because I find it fun and awesome. If Purple pixelated items are my only motivation for playing a game then the game designers have failed to make a fun game to me, simple as that.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Q. My question is, will you miss this kind of never-ending endgame?
    A. Nah. But I wonder if Anet can effectively replace it.
    i'm confident they will but can't tell for sure before the game ends up on my own computer

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Q. Do you think the dungeons will make up for no raids?
    A. Not a chance. Too sparse. It's a gamble.
    they're not really meant to so... well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Q. Aside dungeons, are the open world dynamic events enough in terms of PvE content to keep the players who don't adore PvP busy?
    A. Nope. DEs are an inherently bad mechanic as endgame, I feel.
    how bad?
    -zergable? not the way it's meant to scale (seen on conventions demos), and certainly not due to how "rezing" works
    -not challenging? you (and i as well) have yet to see what elite DEs may be, until then... i'm basing my opinion on what i saw in GW1, thus being rather optimistic.

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