Endgame? [Video]

[Ghostrider]

Yea, that is the other thing that worries me. I have ZERO PVP interest. If half the activity cycle in endgame is PVP, I am not supporting Anet or GW2. Since there would literally only be half the game that interests me.

Every MMO has PvP and PvE.. That doesn't mean there won't be enough PvE (or PvP) content for you to experience. But if you really want a game without PvP than maybe Gw2 is just not for you, but by that logic WoW or w/e is neither..
Playing a MMO is about ''doing all the things'', of course you like one thing more than another, but MMOs just have PvP, PvE, RP, exploring, crafting, countless alts and what not.

I have done 3 PVP matches in Rift. For a quest line. Like... 5 months ago. Never once had to turn to PVP in Rift. The PVE content has been steady and consistent; 3-4 nights a week of raiding 20 and 10 mans and daily 5 mans. I never PVP'd in Warcraft either over ~6 years. I did... 1 or 2 battleground matches. Maybe? PVE'd all the way with no lack of PVE content.

Maybe try PvPing for once? GW2 pvp is very different from WoW pvp which is probably very different from Rift pvp. You might like it. It's impossible to say you dislike PvP after having that less experience with it imo.

[Fencers]

Every MMO has PvP and PvE.. That doesn't mean there won't be enough PvE (or PvP) content for you to experience.

This is precisely what I am speculating on. Will there be enough PVE content for those with no interest in PVP? Will DEs be enough? Et cetera.

There may be PVP in Rift or WOW, but those games have very intensive and robust PVE endgame content. Enough to hold guilds together for 3-4 night a week raiding and/or daily party play without a player touching PVP.

So far, it seems like GW2s dungeons are more like Rift's expert 5 mans; the same dungeon with a few minor tweaks/areas/bosses depending on the mode you enter. Which is fine- but doing 8 dungeons with minor variation isn't going to hold me & my guild's interest if there isn't further instance zones or fast content delivery on par with what Trion is doing.

[Ghostrider]

This is precisely what I am speculating on. Will there be enough PVE content for those with no interest in PVP?

That's the point. It's all speculation. All I know is that Arenanet is trying to provide both PvE and PvP. Whether or not you think the PvE end-game content is sufficient is up to you. Even if GW2 doesn't have that much end-game PvE at launch (which we dont know anything about) does not mean it will never have end-game PvE neither. First everyone must level to level 80, when the majority of the playerbase is level 80 and is bored with the current content, then Im sure Arenanet will add a lot of PvE content. But thats all just speculation..

[Muzjhath]

This is precisely what I am speculating on. Will there be enough PVE content for those with no interest in PVP? Will DEs be enough? Et cetera.

There may be PVP in Rift or WOW, but those games have very intensive and robust PVE endgame content. Enough to hold guilds together for 3-4 night a week raiding and/or daily party play without a player touching PVP.

So far, it seems like GW2s dungeons are more like Rift's expert 5 mans; the same dungeon with a few minor tweaks/areas/bosses depending on the mode you enter. Which is fine- but doing 8 dungeons with minor variation isn't going to hold me & my guild's interest if there isn't further instance zones or fast content delivery on par with what Trion is doing.

Well, from what I have read and understood it about GW2's exploration modes they will more or less be compleatly different pathways. I've understood it like, the three "wings" of Maradaun, the two sides of Stratholme, the four wings of the Scarlet Monastary. You get the picture. Same concept but fully different instances/prats. One not really like the other. Add to it that they will have DE's inside of them. So logically you should be able to run the same way twice in a row and get a slightly, or even majorly, different experience.

[Zolascius]

There's quite a lot of feedback already which i'm really happy about. Lots of posts I can trawl through before the next episode is produced!

I will be as usual discussing the feedback from this thread as I did with the last video, and i'll be able to use your generous thoughts in the next video.

Incase you didn't know already, I'm running a series on YouTube called King of MMOs (This episode is #2) which focuses on major topics of discussion throughout Gw2.

What I plan to do is release a new video with my impressions & thoughts every Tuesday (starting Nov 1st which was today's episode) and on the following day create a video dedicated to what the community thinks about these topics, for this episode specifically the endgame. Because I think it's important that it's not just my opinion being voiced on the channel but having loads of second opinions from the players themselves I feel will make it a bit more epic and wholesome ^_^.

The first episode of the series was actually over 25 minutes of feedback discussion from MMO-Champion alone, I hope to have more big ones going up on my channel later on too!

Again, thanks guys. Keep the posts coming

[Fencers]

That's the point. It's all speculation. All I know is that Arenanet is trying to provide both PvE and PvP. Whether or not you think the PvE end-game content is sufficient is up to you. Even if GW2 doesn't have that much end-game PvE at launch (which we dont know anything about) does not mean it will never have end-game PvE neither. First everyone must level to level 80, when the majority of the playerbase is level 80 and is bored with the current content, then Im sure Arenanet will add a lot of PvE content. But thats all just speculation..

Well, just about all topics are speculation until game release. We can still discuss possibilities from what info we gleam.

Not sure where you are picking up where I said they would never have PVE endgame. As I am specifically speaking about Anet's ability to deliver robust PVE endgamge on par of what is the new industry expectation.

Well, from what I have read and understood it about GW2's exploration modes they will more or less be compleatly different pathways. I've understood it like, the three "wings" of Maradaun, the two sides of Stratholme, the four wings of the Scarlet Monastary. You get the picture. Same concept but fully different instances/prats. One not really like the other. Add to it that they will have DE's inside of them. So logically you should be able to run the same way twice in a row and get a slightly, or even majorly, different experience.

Yea, we shall see. The small group size I think might be another factor in how their endgame develops.

[Durzlla]

Well, just about all topics are speculation until game release. We can still discuss possibilities from what info we gleam.

Not sure where you are picking up where I said they would never have PVE endgame. As I am specifically speaking about Anet's ability to deliver robust PVE endgamge on par of what is the new industry expectation.

Yea, we shall see. The small group size I think might be another factor in how their endgame develops.

I fail to see how small groups will mean bad content.. this isn't wow, or Rift, or any other game, and it wouldn't be all that hard to make a 5 man really difficult, as i said in an earlier post there have been a few times the devs were showing off explorable modes at a gamescon and couldn't even take down the second boss of the thing cause it was destroying them...

When you have no tanks or healers it makes it significantly harder to carry people, so that means everyone will have to work together and pull their own weight... also, think of all the different mechanics they can implement since they don't have to have X tanks and X healers, they just have 5 people and can work with that

[GayGirlie]

I fail to see how small groups will mean bad content..

Tbh, Fencers didn't say it will mean bad content, she said it'll affect how endgame develops, ie. without emphasis on either positive or the negative.

Personally I am still terribly interested in GW2, but I fear that running dungeons just won't be enough for me. There has to be some kind of an incentive for running them, not just the "I want to kill stuff", and since there is no gear progression in GW2 I don't know what that incentive could be.

[Malthurius]

Tbh, Fencers didn't say it will mean bad content, she said it'll affect how endgame develops, ie. without emphasis on either positive or the negative.

Personally I am still terribly interested in GW2, but I fear that running dungeons just won't be enough for me. There has to be some kind of an incentive for running them, not just the "I want to kill stuff", and since there is no gear progression in GW2 I don't know what that incentive could be.

That it's fun? Maybe? The only other thing I can think of to run it is if you wanted to be a completionist or really wanted that pretty looking gear to wear.

But yeah, the incentive is going to be that they are entertaining experiences, and they can be different each time (3 or 4 versions I think?), when you've seen them all you can stop doing them, there is no loot conveyor to keep you coming back, and you don't feel obligated to keep playing because you're not paying for your time on the servers.

The endgame is the entire game, that's their goal, and it's all suppose to be fun like a game should, not a money machine for people's time.

[Fencers]

I fail to see how small groups will mean bad content.

I never said such. You are sorta having a fantasy conversation.

I am eager and interested to see what Anet do with 5-man content as endgame. The rest of your post is unrelated to my comments and kinda... um, not good.

---------- Post added 2011-11-02 at 03:33 AM ----------

That it's fun? Maybe? The only other thing I can think of to run it is if you wanted to be a completionist or really wanted that pretty looking gear to wear.

But yeah, the incentive is going to be that they are entertaining experiences, and they can be different each time (3 or 4 versions I think?), when you've seen them all you can stop doing them, there is no loot conveyor to keep you coming back, and you don't feel obligated to keep playing because you're not paying for your time on the servers.

Yea, but am I really eager to plow through GW2's sparse dungeons when D3 and it's ladder rankings and RMT AH are around the corner? If I want hack-n-slash dungeon romps, I will personally get in other games I find far more intriguing to that style- Vindictus, Rusty Hearts or Diablo 3.

That was an aspect which kept me lukewarm in GW1, personally. When we [me+guild] ran all the elite missions it was sorta over. And the PVE missions/dungeon content was slow coming and easily consumed. Most of those missions were pretty simple and not particularly engaging or rather, compelling.

Whereas we were busting our knuckles in Sunwell 4 nights a week with glee. And eager to farm it more, more, more. Even now, in Rift's Hammerknell, we get more folks online than can fit into the raid size of 20- like 3-4 nights a week.

In GW1, we did our ZQs and logged. The only thing about GW1 that kept me playing once I ran all the missions was the fact I didn't have to pay monthly for GW1. Very few B2P or F2P MMOs of decent quality were out at the time. So I kept my EQ2/WOW subscription and played GW1 as a side game.

However, times have changed. These days we got Diablo 3, Rift, SWTOR, new WOW Xpac, Secret World, Archeage and slew of remarkably high quality F2P/B2P games in the pipeline or already out.

When Anet announced GW2 will be a "true MMO" and still remain sub free I thought "Oh awesome!". Then I played Rift and SWTOR, D3 and Wildstar betas and thought, "Anet has their work cut out for them now."

And that's where I am at on the state of GW2 now; seems like a lot of cool ideas. But Endgame? Endgame has me worried as a long term experience for anyone not interested in PVP. More competition than ever before is on the market and the competition is good.

[Muzjhath]

But yeah, the incentive is going to be that they are entertaining experiences, and they can be different each time (3 or 4 versions I think?), when you've seen them all you can stop doing them, there is no loot conveyor to keep you coming back, and you don't feel obligated to keep playing because you're not paying for your time on the servers.

I do believe I've read/heard that the dungeons explorer mode will drop gear, rare gear even. It will just not be -better- gear.
So there might be incentives to run a specific dungeon multiple times to get a specific set you want.

Also, we know already that some DEs will have a number of "At least this many needs to participate" to be doable. I'd say the max level DEs will more often be scaled like this that you have to be 10 (or more) to unlock and finnish them.
From what I have seen of the dragon DE they o have it is far from a Zerg fight as well and includes quite different tactics and quite a bit of different things you have to do and keep track of.

[Creepjack]

If you are in one of the top ten or even top twenty wow guilds, I don't think you will be satisfied with end game PVE in GW2. On the other hand the rest will have it more than enough .

Personally I'm looking forward GW2 for its PVP end game, cause after trying WoW, Rift and Warhammer all I can say is that those systems were retarded. It's mostly because I'm coming from very competitive q3cpma scene. That's why GW2 is very appealing to me: good server browser, same gear for everyone, interesting meta game, already pretty good balance and no holy trinity - all this will make it a very good and competitive game.

I'm pretty sure PVE will be challenging too, explorer mode dungeons will take more than an hour to complete with possible DEs and cool arcade like elements. After clearing it you will feel as if you just cleared some raid instance. Plus guilds will cooperate to launch big scale DEs where you can fight the "big guys".

[Mstermeg]

Yea, that is the other thing that worries me. I have ZERO PVP interest. If half the activity cycle in endgame is PVP, I am not supporting Anet or GW2. Since there would literally only be half the game that interests me.

These are the x-factors for me: can Anet provide a steady stream of robust group based instances or make DEs of such consequence that they don't devolve to mindless zerg-a-thons.

I think it's pretty interesting to look at Rift in the context of GW2. Rift's DEs are trivial and are lackluster zerg-a-thons. But Trion have been on the money in delivering 20 man raids, 10 man raids and 5 man modes in the 6-7 months they been around. There have only been... 3 content x.0s when they didn't deliver a new instance or group based open world event... maybe?

Though I enjoyed GW1- the game struggled to hold my interests because at the end of the day GW1 became a SP rpg with a chat room. Guilds were either ultra casual or PVP focused. I rarely found anything in-between because the game just didn't encourage guilds sticking together or progressing as a community as WoW and EQ2 did at the time.

GW1 was very niche. I wonder if GW2 will shake that off...

With a name like Guild Wars, would it actually come to a surprise that pvp (guild vs guild) combat would come into play? That was a big thing about the first Guild Wars game, it had a very competitive yet elegant pvp system. You had classes (ahem mesmers) with very complex, specific spells that if used intelligently were fundamental in the organized pvp scene. Anet pulls off smart pvp well and I for one hope it is a big part of GW2.

For people like yourself where pvp isn't a good selling point this sadly may not be the game for you, which is just fine. No game can cater to everyone and the ones that try to (WoW) end up spreading themselves too thin to the point where any strengths or key points to the game become washing out by the game trying to put too many features and game modes in.

I agree though Guild Wars did have limited non-pvp endgame, looking at GW2 though they seem very dedicated to their craft and I'm sure they will have plenty to do in GW2. One thing to remember is that no game will ever achieve unlimited content. Game development is a time consuming business with all the programming and coding and graphic design and what have you. I'd imagine it takes a good 2 or so months for a hard working development team to finish a dungeon/raid only for their player base to finish it in less than a week. Unlimited content is a pipe dream, players have become so adept at power gaming through content.The game that creates content that you want to go through slowly and enjoy is going to be a winner, not the one that can push refurbished content at their customers the fastest.

[Rorcanna]

-10 for that silly laugh and mockery of the PandaREN and the Monks.

Don't promote your opinions on downing something else, and downing those that enjoy that "something else".

[Wolvenheart]

Like the first game, this game as well has many stories to be unfolded. The game at release will highly not be the end. End-Content will be through-out 1-80 as well. During upcoming patches we can expect the Fire Islands and the Crystal Desert as new area's to explore. There are still 4 other dragons to encounter. Cantha's story, and Elona's story as well and many things we might not even know about. So it's easy to say that the things we DO know we'd be expecting in the future, might take up to 4-5 years before even getting that far, they will keep adding more Dynamic Events into the game, not just around the lv 80 part. But also in the low level or mid-level part. Don't see this game like; "Hey I'm lv 80 now, let's ignore the world and do nothing but dungeons and pvp". Because it doesn't work this way. You can experience EVERYTHING like you should experience and that's what this game will make time-consuming and challenging.

You are the second person to post, and you quote the ENTIRE first post and the video, WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS?!

[Blznsmri]

You are the second person to post, and you quote the ENTIRE first post and the video, WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS?!

Because he hit the reply with quote link on the bottom of the first post...

But yeah OP, The whole game is end game and there will be plenty to do for PvE'ers, but if you're looking for things that feel like raids, the only thing that's going to get close to that is the big DE chains in the zones that have large boss fights at the end.

[Mif]

WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS?!

You should ask that of yourself.
What does your post possibly hope to achieve other than starting pointless petty bickering?

[Odeezee]

As long term players/guilds are held together by progressive orientated content. People like to feel as though they upgrading or working toward a communal goal; doing so with mates is that much more fun.

a goal is the only thing required to "keep" a guild together be it for a illusory stat increases (WoW, SWTOR, Rift) or cosmetic choice (GW1, GW2).

My one fear about GW2 is that it will be so pvp-centric that there won't be much to do outside of all the pvp content (relatively speaking). Which is ok, I'll pvp too, but I want to like everything about the game. One of the reason's I'm very blah about WoW at the moment is the decline of pve (for me), and I don't want to see the same thing happen in a new game. Here's hoping ANet doesn't let me down.

people must be new to the GW2 scene as since it's announcement it has had a heavy focus on PvE for like 2.5 years and only this past August did they even start to mention and show PvP content in the game along side with PvE content, so assuming PvP is the main focus of the game is a fairly ignorant statement.

Yea, that is the other thing that worries me. I have ZERO PVP interest. If half the activity cycle in endgame is PVP, I am not supporting Anet or GW2. Since there would literally only be half the game that interests me.

ummmm, what?!!! having 50% emphasis on the content in a game being PvP oriented and having "enough" PvE content in a game to satisfy people are NOT mutually exclusive.

These are the x-factors for me: can Anet provide a steady stream of robust group based instances or make DEs of such consequence that they don't devolve to mindless zerg-a-thons.

the nature of their PvE content is different from most other games as it is designed for HIGHER replayability (side-kicking up and down, scaling) and the devs have already stated that they will add new content to the game right after launch and some DEs they will not be put in patch notes as they want people out in the game world exploring. secondly please explain to me how a DE can devolve into a mindless zerg-a-thon when the event ACTUALLY scales in difficulty with the number of players participating? people need to stop with thinking GW2 will be zerg friendly, zerging is a way to overwhelm and trivialize content through sheer numbers in traditional MMOs like WoW, SWTOR, *Rift* as their content DOES NOT SCALE.

Though I enjoyed GW1- the game struggled to hold my interests because at the end of the day GW1 became a SP rpg with a chat room. Guilds were either ultra casual or PVP focused. I rarely found anything in-between because the game just didn't encourage guilds sticking together or progressing as a community as WoW and EQ2 did at the time

GW1 was very niche. I wonder if GW2 will shake that off...

the devs have already stated that GW was not an MMO they never said it was. they also stated that they have learned from GW and are doing things to make GW2 more in-line with what they wanted GW to have been from the beginning with the addition of it being a truly persistent MMO.

A handful of dungeons in GW2 ala expert modes in Rift doesn't equal 32 dungeons at all. That's marketing.

so basically you are saying that Explorable Mode versions of the Story Mode dungeons are akin to Expert Modes in Rift? did you even read about what they are? or read the numerous game reviews of the experiences game writers had in dungeons back in June of this year?

the story mode is pug friendly which unlocks the explorable mode of the dungeon. the explorable mode then has 3 "distinct" paths you can take to complete them with unique mobs, encounters and bosses. these distinct paths then have the chance to have DEs triggered inside them further increasing the distinct and unique content one can experience in the same path of the dungeon with multiple play-throughs. they may have the same final boss antagonist but depending on which path you took to get to said boss the mechanics and strategy required to defeat the boss are different. so with that in mind the math becomes 4 (paths per dungeon SM + EM x 3) x 8 (total number of dungeons in at release) = 32, so no it is not just marketing.

Still on the fence about GW2 delivering robust and fast content updates for PVE. There have only been 2 months or so in which Rift hasn't had a sizable PVE update. Trion set a new standard for MMO content additions. I hope SWTOR and GW2 can keep up.

having to add content is not just dictated by how quickly players complete the content, but the very design nature of the content being consumed. we have to wait and see how fast and how quickly people get bored of the content provided in GW2 before we can make comparisons on how quickly content is added when actually NEEDED by the playerbase at large.

However, times have changed. These days we got Diablo 3, Rift, SWTOR, new WOW Xpac, Secret World, Archeage and slew of remarkably high quality F2P/B2P games in the pipeline or already out.

When Anet announced GW2 will be a "true MMO" and still remain sub free I thought "Oh awesome!". Then I played Rift and SWTOR, D3 and Wildstar betas and thought, "Anet has their work cut out for them now."

And that's where I am at on the state of GW2 now; seems like a lot of cool ideas. But Endgame? Endgame has me worried as a long term experience for anyone not interested in PVP. More competition than ever before is on the market and the competition is good.

the content GW2 is offering actually has no competition at the moment so your comparison is flawed. the way in which it's content is consumed and the replayability of said content is different from any other MMO out or coming out so you have to use different criteria to make an objective comparison. endgame in traditional MMOs has to be structured a specific way as it follows a specific set of rules and mechanics, GW2 endgame does not.

people do not get how powerful the ability to side-kick is in an MMO. take WoW for example, my most memorable experiences in WoW where Stranglethorn Vale, Blackrock Mountain, Southshore/Tarren Mill and Scholomance/Stratholme but after the increase to the level cap and subsequent expansions, that content became obsolete. but with the side kicking mechanics in GW2 that content is always relevant and that increases the amount of actual content one can consume at the level cap. then you have to take into consideration scaling events, event actually affecting the game world with player impact, player triggered event, exploring the game world for hidden events, a discovery based crafting system where you only make useful items, 30+ mini-games, elite DE content, varied types of DEs from attack/defend to escort/puzzle, etc.

people should remember that end game is only prevalent in it's current "raid or die" form as it is something people have grown/learned to expect because it was popularized by WoW and then adopted by subsequent MMOs. that does not mean that it is the only form of end-game content or even the "best" form of end-game content. GW2 may not be perfect, but it is laying the groundwork through innovative mechanics and game design the lend themselves to a different end-game experience that may end up being what people now refer to as "the end-game" content when looking at current and future MMOs.

[Barrowmore]

the side kicking mechanics in GW2

This is what makes GW2's current amount of challenging PvE content set for launch acceptable. You can fight any outdoor boss from any level of content and clear the lower level dungeons with a consistent challenge regardless of your level. Instead of just the 3 level 80 dungeons, you get the other 5 as well. There is no lack of PvE content confirmed for release. The entire game is truly endgame, whether you're leveling up or you're already level 80.

[Durzlla]

I never said such. You are sorta having a fantasy conversation.

I am eager and interested to see what Anet do with 5-man content as endgame. The rest of your post is unrelated to my comments and kinda... um, not good.

---------- Post added 2011-11-02 at 03:33 AM ----------



Yea, but am I really eager to plow through GW2's sparse dungeons when D3 and it's ladder rankings and RMT AH are around the corner? If I want hack-n-slash dungeon romps, I will personally get in other games I find far more intriguing to that style- Vindictus, Rusty Hearts or Diablo 3.

That was an aspect which kept me lukewarm in GW1, personally. When we [me+guild] ran all the elite missions it was sorta over. And the PVE missions/dungeon content was slow coming and easily consumed. Most of those missions were pretty simple and not particularly engaging or rather, compelling.

Whereas we were busting our knuckles in Sunwell 4 nights a week with glee. And eager to farm it more, more, more. Even now, in Rift's Hammerknell, we get more folks online than can fit into the raid size of 20- like 3-4 nights a week.

In GW1, we did our ZQs and logged. The only thing about GW1 that kept me playing once I ran all the missions was the fact I didn't have to pay monthly for GW1. Very few B2P or F2P MMOs of decent quality were out at the time. So I kept my EQ2/WOW subscription and played GW1 as a side game.

However, times have changed. These days we got Diablo 3, Rift, SWTOR, new WOW Xpac, Secret World, Archeage and slew of remarkably high quality F2P/B2P games in the pipeline or already out.

When Anet announced GW2 will be a "true MMO" and still remain sub free I thought "Oh awesome!". Then I played Rift and SWTOR, D3 and Wildstar betas and thought, "Anet has their work cut out for them now."

And that's where I am at on the state of GW2 now; seems like a lot of cool ideas. But Endgame? Endgame has me worried as a long term experience for anyone not interested in PVP. More competition than ever before is on the market and the competition is good.

Wow... i have no idea how i got my comment.... from your post.... lol trying to figure it out right now....

But as for your worrying as to my knowledge there will be some high end zones (Orr is one of them i believe) where it pretty much requires a group of competent people to do anything there, so i'm assuming it'll kinda be like an open world raid? You may want to look into that a little more to see if that's something you'd be looking forward to!