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  1. #181
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The guy above me. I was in a hurry and didn't click the quote thingy XD

    I don't know about that totally. Historically there have always been carrots to chase in games. From a high score to green mushrooms, dings, loots or whathaveyou.

    I can't really think of any game that doesn't give players some kind of feedback for playing aside from the experience of playing. RE: MMOs which are traditionally meant to be long term affairs, this feedback is usually gear that allows access to high(er) tiers of that game.

    Guild Wars 1 secret weapon was a B2P model so the compulsion was less ingrained to the core design. We're gonna have to see if it works in GW2 in the face of Rift, SWTOR, Rift and more games now abandoning the subscription model. With the "buy it & play it like Call of Duty" gimmick of GW1 being less so with high quality games in pipe with no sub.

    I think GW2's success (or failure) will be a really important seachange for the industry. Just to see if it works.

    Yea, we're gonna have to see how it pays off. At best, it's awesome. At worst, really interesting for the industry.

    Um, no?

    The entire gist of what you are saying here is basically an assumption or fantasy on your part. You are literally replying to things I have never said, claimed, expected or suggested as wanting or desiring in GW2.

    Here let's settle it and put our cards on the table-- I don't mind there is no gear system in GW2. I like that the DEs have consequence, dungeons as fun romps sound... fun. Vanity item chasing is a big draw to me in MMOs- huge. GW1 had an awesome story line, the sequel looks so far so good on story. Better even.

    That is what I expect out of GW2, personally.

    However, that is not relevant to anything in the thread. The thread asks if GW2s endgame systems will be comparable and as success as the endgame compulsion of WOW, Rift or EQ. Essentially if it's endgame will be as sustainable to hardcore PVE MMO players.

    If your issue is that the thread's premise is faulty; fair enough. Address the topic starter as you see fit. But you have addressed me, who happens to feel GW2's endgame models (however well intended) are not comparable or will be as successful as endgame for hardcore PVE players.

    I am aware of the philosophy of the GW2/Anet as well. I am aware the dungeons and DEs have different intentions as gameplay mechanics than those in WOW, EQ or Rift. Etc.

    Attempts to explain the GW2 philosophy, gameplay systems and language [such as above] which supposes GW2 is "the wrong game for me" or I have an false expectation for GW2 are unneeded, inappropriate, wholly irrelevant to the topic and (very) terrible forum posting.

    You talked about reading comprehension earlier and I am baffled how you can miss the point of the topic. And even more so how you have demonstratively [would be happy to repost & juxtapose as needed] replied to sentiments you... kinda made up about me. O.o
    Sorry didn't read like ANY of your post, but is rift actually going B2P?!

    If so I'm gonna do a backflip cause it was a fun game just not one I wanted to payoney for =D
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The guy above me. I was in a hurry and didn't click the quote thingy XD
    what about me

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    This thread = A --> B --> A --> B --> A

    is going nowhere, close it down
    Well, atleast I tried to repair the damage and get a proper discussion going, but I only got what, 2 replies? Personally I find the whole carrot-on-a-stick an interesting problem from design standpoint and would enjoy seeing some fresh takes on it, even if they didn't work for me.

    But well, I think I'll give up, too.
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  4. #184
    Well it's a design problem for mostly theme park games really. How do you keep someone playing your game? Most theme parks rely on gear progression and that is done mostly by raiding.

    I'd much rather have a world to play in that doesn't boil down to obtaining better gear from a power standpoint. Really what I want is a sandbox but there aren't any big name or big money developers willing to make one.

    In regards to GW2 (and GW since it has the same payment model) is it doesn't need to have that gear grind treadmill to keep you playing. I understand people want a purpose to keep playing a game that they have enjoyed up to that point. But I just find the current WoW model to be lackluster at best (which is why I usually quit playing that game for 10 months or greater at a time, pick it up again for xpac and then quit again a bit later).

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Well it's a design problem for mostly theme park games really. How do you keep someone playing your game? Most theme parks rely on gear progression and that is done mostly by raiding.
    Well, I did also ask for possible alternatives. Gear progression isn't the only possible type of cyclic progression, there could well be other meaningful incentives and methods for guilds/groups/players feeling they are progressing and thus retain the interest. But I am simply not creative enough myself to figure out what those alternatives could be.
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  6. #186
    What about a status progression? Such as political status. I have always thought that a sandbox type mmo with the idea of controlling the world an interesting way to go. So you do your pve and/or pvp type things to gain status and political favor. So instead of housing (or in addition to it) you can control a city, a country, or an empire. Then you also compete with other players to vest control of that area, whether it be on a micro or macro scale, via different methods (pve or pvp) for ultimate power.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by GayGirlie View Post
    She's trying to discuss whether or not GW2 PvE-wise will provide enough of an incentive for highly-competitive and skilled groups/guilds like e.g. Wodka or Paragon to keep their interest and whether or not cosmetic gear will be enough of an incentive for people who like raiding in the other MMOs.
    here's is my issue with this line of argument; first, are you in any of those guilds for you to assume you can speak on their behalf and know what they want from an MMO or GW2 in particular? second, why would you assume that the same incentives are required in GW2 to so called "please" the raiding crowd? and if your answer is because that is what it's like in WoW, Rift, etc <insert whatever gear treadmill game> then there is nothing more to discuss on that issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by GayGirlie View Post
    Stop attacking someone just because she's trying to make for a proper discussion weighing the negatives in.
    the issue is you think that these things are negatives, but refused to acknowledge not only the opinion of ALOT of people who resented the whole concept of the gear treadmill, who grew tired of the treadmill, and the most important group the developers of the GW2. and if you think that was attacking someone, then i don't know what to tell you.

    Quote Originally Posted by GayGirlie View Post
    Here's a good example to Odeezee: a well-thought-out response that poses an argument in favor of GW2 without attacking another person.

    As for the argument itself: atleast in WoW-world the challenge is about what place you get in the ladder of guilds having downed the encounter as soon as possible after release. Ie. they fight really, REALLY hard for #1 spot, and the fight for up to #5 is still strong. After that the interest mostly wanes. In GW2 however as all that content is available from the get-go, simultaneously, there can not be such a ladder. Perhaps for a "who beats the encounter the fastest", but these kinds of guilds/groups want a spot that can not be taken away from them after they've reached it, so again I doubt that would still work for some of them. Of course, for some it would/will work and I have no doubt that some guilds and people will indeed compete rather hard for the best time ever and they'll likely have enormously fun time doing that.
    none of the things you listed are incentives provided by the game. those are player challenges that the community decides to make important, so i fail to see how that is an argument one way or the other that ANet "has" to give players a specific set of incentive to keep them playing the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Um, no?

    The entire gist of what you are saying here is basically an assumption or fantasy on your part. You are literally replying to things I have never said, claimed, expected or suggested as wanting or desiring in GW2.

    Here let's settle it and put our cards on the table-- I don't mind there is no gear system in GW2. I like that the DEs have consequence, dungeons as fun romps sound... fun. Vanity item chasing is a big draw to me in MMOs- huge. GW1 had an awesome story line, the sequel looks so far so good on story. Better even.

    That is what I expect out of GW2, personally.

    However, that is not relevant to anything in the thread. The thread asks if GW2s endgame systems will be comparable and as success as the endgame compulsion of WOW, Rift or EQ. Essentially if it's endgame will be as sustainable to hardcore PVE MMO players.

    If your issue is that the thread's premise is faulty; fair enough. Address the topic starter as you see fit. But you have addressed me, who happens to feel GW2's endgame models (however well intended) are not comparable or will be as successful as endgame for hardcore PVE players.

    I am aware of the philosophy of the GW2/Anet as well. I am aware the dungeons and DEs have different intentions as gameplay mechanics than those in WOW, EQ or Rift. Etc.

    Attempts to explain the GW2 philosophy, gameplay systems and language [such as above] which supposes GW2 is "the wrong game for me" or I have an false expectation for GW2 are unneeded, inappropriate, wholly irrelevant to the topic and (very) terrible forum posting.

    You talked about reading comprehension earlier and I am baffled how you can miss the point of the topic. And even more so how you have demonstratively [would be happy to repost & juxtapose as needed] replied to sentiments you... kinda made up about me. O.o
    i have said it earlier but apparently i need to repeat myself, raiding as it exists now is an evolution of gameplay incentives to the point where it has become the norm, before it was popularized in late vanilla/early TBC in WoW, so to say that the system that GW2 has now cannot be a new evolution of gameplay incentives is faulty at best. people adapted to the "raid or die" mentality because that was the only source of progression that games that follow that system offer. someone has already mentioned this, but outside of bragging rights and all that fluff the main driving force to compete and complete content is the challenge itself, but that is so easily forgotten by many proponents who claim some form of stat/upgrade progression is required for GW2 to have longevity. if GW2 can provide that challenge for players then the community will find a way to make it competitive themselves, which is exactly the same thing they did in WoW.

    to comment on some of your other points, the reason i answered your posts was because you exacerbated the faulty line of thinking that GW2 has to provide progression content akin to those provided in games like WoW and EQ. then you went on to say things like they will be splitting their potential audience yet they have been upfront about what they think is fun for the game they are making and that they would want to play themselves. i and others in this thread have shown you that GW2 has progression content, it's just cosmetic or if you prefer it's lateral as opposed to vertical progression but you seem adamant that it will not be good enough for raiders. and for some reason you are hung up on thinking that because raid style content exists in the open world it is somehow prone to being zerged without every taking into consideration how scaling significantly reduces the ability to even zerg in the first place.

    if you really did want to present a sound objective opinion then first provide a coherent argument; first you say that upgrade progression content is required, then that raid content is required, then you ask such open ended question about what happens after launch like "how well will they update" and "will the content be robust enough", but then you say you have your doubts that ANet will be able to deliver yet provide no reason as to why. this discussion could have actually been meaningful had you not taken the earlier stances you did in this thread, before i even replied, and which you just compounded after i replied. it's a pity though, i was bored and i was looking for an invigorating debate. /sigh
    Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!!!

    Guild Wars 2: Odeezee (Necromancer) || TERA: Odeezee (Archer-Ret) || SWTOR: Odeezee (Sith Inquisitor-Ret/Jedi Sage-Ret) || GW: Odeezee Fosho (Elementalist-Ret)
    Aion: Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret), ODZ (Spirit Master-Ret) || War
    : Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret) || AoC: Odeezee (Demonologist-Ret) || WoW: Odeezee (Druid-Ret), Thaone (Mage-Ret)

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    first, are you in any of those guilds for you to assume you can speak on their behalf and know what they want from an MMO or GW2 in particular?
    Please point me to where I claimed to know what they want. Saying "whether or not" includes both options and doesn't imply a preference either way.

    second, why would you assume that the same incentives are required in GW2 to so called "please" the raiding crowd?
    I didn't. It was a question, not a statement.

    none of the things you listed are incentives provided by the game. those are player challenges that the community decides to make important, so i fail to see how that is an argument one way or the other that ANet "has" to give players a specific set of incentive to keep them playing the game.
    Again, please do point where I said that ANet "has" to do anything. I merely presented a question with several different answers and I didn't imply anything beyond that.
    Last edited by GayGirlie; 2011-11-06 at 02:39 AM. Reason: My mistake on quoting.
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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