1. #521
    Pit Lord philefluxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoofreak View Post
    I'm curious as well, but if pushed for what I think will happen, I'd have to say that they are too heavily invested with the new UI scheme for PS3 to allow the KB/Mouse on PS3 to be used. It's a clever idea - hell, even to use the PS3 controller on the PC and get the PS3 UI. That level of flexibility would be amaaaazing.

    But I bet it won't happen that way. Expect the PC UI for PC, and the PS3 controller UI for PS3, and n'er the two shall meet.
    Ya Im really not sure where you are going with this considering most FFXI PC players used a controller, at least everyone in my linkshell did. I haven't played XIV, so no comment there. But if its anything like its predecessor the UI will be tailored to a controller so that PC and PS3 players are on a level playing field.

  2. #522
    Scarab Lord aikoyamamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philefluxx View Post
    Ya Im really not sure where you are going with this considering most FFXI PC players used a controller, at least everyone in my linkshell did. I haven't played XIV, so no comment there. But if its anything like its predecessor the UI will be tailored to a controller so that PC and PS3 players are on a level playing field.
    Sadly, this was my experience as well. The game is really clunky to play with a keyboard/mouse. I remember how baffling it was when I first got the game and how frustrating it was to try to get used to those awkward controls.
    Last edited by aikoyamamato; 2013-02-11 at 09:02 PM.

  3. #523
    we've only seen screenshots of the PS3 controller UI on the PS3. That's pretty much all I've seen so far in regards to controller UI. Yeah, I know people have played both games with a controller on the PC, so I'd want to see both UI's available for both. I'm just not sure they are, though. Let's hope they do!

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by aikoyamamato View Post
    Sadly, this was my experience as well. The game is really clunky to play with a keyboard/mouse. I remember how baffling it was when I first got the game and how frustrating it was to try to get used to those awkward controls.
    For me it wasn't that bad, took a few hours but once I got the hang of numpad to move/run walk etc and using ctrl+num keys for macro's to cast, and equip armor.... it was gg for me. For games like FF I honestly don't think a mouse is EVER necessary.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by philefluxx View Post
    Ya Im really not sure where you are going with this considering most FFXI PC players used a controller, at least everyone in my linkshell did. I haven't played XIV, so no comment there. But if its anything like its predecessor the UI will be tailored to a controller so that PC and PS3 players are on a level playing field.
    Actually, since they want to attract people who are unable to play a game without using the typical WoW controls and mouse looking, I'm sure they'll make it work fine with both. I think I might end up using a gamepad though.

  6. #526
    Wait is this another Final Fantasy online?

    I bought the first one as a kid but, for some reason, it never wanted to connect online so I ended up never playing it. From what I read year later though, I never missed much.

  7. #527
    where have you been?

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by aikoyamamato View Post
    Sadly, this was my experience as well. The game is really clunky to play with a keyboard/mouse. I remember how baffling it was when I first got the game and how frustrating it was to try to get used to those awkward controls.
    what? Are you seriously saying the FFXI controls were bad? /headdesk

    Took me 10 minutes to get used to them (was first MMO I played back when it was released in EU), and after that, I never looked back. The controls, yes, they are different, but they work.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by lanerios View Post
    what? Are you seriously saying the FFXI controls were bad? /headdesk

    Took me 10 minutes to get used to them (was first MMO I played back when it was released in EU), and after that, I never looked back. The controls, yes, they are different, but they work.
    I remember spending an hour with a guy walking me through how to rebind things on mouse/keyboard to make the game not painful to control, and even then it was a pain in the ass. Granted this was years and years ago and I was a little poo babby who was bad at video games (still am), but I don't ever remember being as confused and put off by the initial control scheme for a game.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by philefluxx View Post
    Ya Im really not sure where you are going with this considering most FFXI PC players used a controller, at least everyone in my linkshell did. I haven't played XIV, so no comment there. But if its anything like its predecessor the UI will be tailored to a controller so that PC and PS3 players are on a level playing field.
    Then dont comment.

    FFXIV 2.0, which means there was a FFXIV 1.0 If you even remotely bothered to learn anything about FFXIV you would already have known that the 1.0 version of the game was keyboard/mouse friendly. They have stated they planned to keep it that way and 2.0 PC is keyboard/mouse friendly.


    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    I remember spending an hour with a guy walking me through how to rebind things on mouse/keyboard to make the game not painful to control, and even then it was a pain in the ass. Granted this was years and years ago and I was a little poo babby who was bad at video games (still am), but I don't ever remember being as confused and put off by the initial control scheme for a game.
    The controls in 11 were a little clunky when you first started.

  11. #531
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    Imo FFXIV 1.0 was both Keyboard & Mouse and Gamepad friendly. It was all what you preffered. I really liked the GamePad for the game since it added more to the console feel and it made the game feel a lot more like FF to me.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    I remember spending an hour with a guy walking me through how to rebind things on mouse/keyboard to make the game not painful to control, and even then it was a pain in the ass. Granted this was years and years ago and I was a little poo babby who was bad at video games (still am), but I don't ever remember being as confused and put off by the initial control scheme for a game.
    I got a fat ass manual with the game (seriously biggest manual I had seen for a game back then, and I still have the dos pseudo protected game manuals >_>) that had all the steps described, was rather easy that way.

  13. #533
    Scarab Lord aikoyamamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lanerios View Post
    what? Are you seriously saying the FFXI controls were bad? /headdesk

    Took me 10 minutes to get used to them (was first MMO I played back when it was released in EU), and after that, I never looked back. The controls, yes, they are different, but they work.
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They were pretty clunky, and this is a pretty common opinion.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by lanerios View Post
    I got a fat ass manual with the game (seriously biggest manual I had seen for a game back then, and I still have the dos pseudo protected game manuals >_>) that had all the steps described, was rather easy that way.
    Any game that needs a "fat ass" manual to walk you through how to remap keys to get the game functional on a mouse and keyboard is horribly, horribly designed. There's something to be said for a certain level of complexity with control schemes, there's another thing to be said about mind numbingly poor design that requires "fat ass" manuals to make up for how poor it is.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by lanerios View Post
    what? Are you seriously saying the FFXI controls were bad? /headdesk
    Because they were, and still are.

    You either play with a gamepad, or you entirely use the keyboard. Targetting system is still whacked and it's still not entirely intuitive in its design. Simply because you overcome them doesn't mean that they weren't bad controls -- they always have been and continue to be.

    I've always played with keyboard only (as well as I currently tri-box). I've tried several times to play with the gamepad the "way it's meant to be played like PS2" and it's so damned limiting and slow it's not even funny.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Any game that needs a "fat ass" manual to walk you through how to remap keys to get the game functional on a mouse and keyboard is horribly, horribly designed. There's something to be said for a certain level of complexity with control schemes, there's another thing to be said about mind numbingly poor design that requires "fat ass" manuals to make up for how poor it is.
    or the manual is just really in depth. step 1. move mouse to x. step 2. click on X, step 3. move mouse to y location, step 4. click on y. step 5 press key z. Also FFXI was/is the only MMO i've ever come across that supported the old style (very compact) laptop keyboard out of the box, which would require a whole different slew of options and how to go about setting them up. Don't assume that because wows "easy" click on a box and hit a Key to change a key bind is actually simple, there is a ton of shit going on in the back ground you aren't seeing. For the time... keep it stupid simple to get people hooked like adicts wasn't the goal, one didn't NEED to change any in FFXI to be productive or feel productive as the default settings actually felt quite natural.

    If memory servers FFXI was out a full year in japan for hitting american shelves, during this year FPS got highly popular, so FFXI's controls felt clunky when compared to what american's were used to using.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 04:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Viertel View Post
    Because they were, and still are.

    You either play with a gamepad, or you entirely use the keyboard. Targetting system is still whacked and it's still not entirely intuitive in its design. Simply because you overcome them doesn't mean that they weren't bad controls -- they always have been and continue to be.

    I've always played with keyboard only (as well as I currently tri-box). I've tried several times to play with the gamepad the "way it's meant to be played like PS2" and it's so damned limiting and slow it's not even funny.
    Slow for you, not for other people who migrated from a PS2 to PC for w/e reasons. The targeting system was bad because "hit" boxes (lack of a better term) weren't all that great, so clicking on things only made matters worse. Also, the game was a Japanese Focus, with american as after thought, so the tab targeting "working in reverse" (IE right to left) made sense in japan as that's the way the read right to left, which is only compounded by the fact that studies showed that for the time Japanese (target audience remember) consumers were very... fickle I believe it is, so buying a ps2 was cheaper then a PC. Once one grasped this concept the notion that controls have always been and continue to be bad is kind of moot as the target audience will define much of the design aspect of a game.
    Last edited by Ichy; 2013-02-12 at 09:30 PM.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    Don't assume that because wows "easy" click on a box and hit a Key to change a key bind is actually simple, there is a ton of shit going on in the back ground you aren't seeing. For the time... keep it stupid simple to get people hooked like adicts wasn't the goal, one didn't NEED to change any in FFXI to be productive or feel productive as the default settings actually felt quite natural.
    It's not just WoW that uses that method of rebinding keys, it's pretty much every other PC game that allows you to bind keys in the past 15-20 years, especially MMO's.

    I don't give a rats ass how simple or complicated it is under the hood when it comes to rebinding a key. If you don't provide an easy way for the end-user to alter it, then you either don't allow for it or you are terrible at your job. There's really nothing else to it.

    As for default bindings feeling "natural", that's subjective. If you talk to anyone who did much gaming on PC, there were a few different hand layouts (FPS, RTS and a few additional ones) that are quite common. I don't remember FFXI using any of these layouts, which were all layouts I was familiar with, so it was far from "natural" to me.

    And you're right, I didn't need to change any keybinds to be able to play the game. I could also learn to play a game with my toes if I wanted to and be successful, that doesn't mean it's enjoyable or idea.

    I'm not sure how they'll handle it in FFXIV 2.0, but I remember 1.0 made the base keybindings much more in-line with what you see in other first/third person PC games, so I'm hoping that nothing will change in that regards for 2.0

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    It's not just WoW that uses that method of rebinding keys, it's pretty much every other PC game that allows you to bind keys in the past 15-20 years, especially MMO's.

    I don't give a rats ass how simple or complicated it is under the hood when it comes to rebinding a key. If you don't provide an easy way for the end-user to alter it, then you either don't allow for it or you are terrible at your job. There's really nothing else to it.

    As for default bindings feeling "natural", that's subjective. If you talk to anyone who did much gaming on PC, there were a few different hand layouts (FPS, RTS and a few additional ones) that are quite common. I don't remember FFXI using any of these layouts, which were all layouts I was familiar with, so it was far from "natural" to me.

    And you're right, I didn't need to change any keybinds to be able to play the game. I could also learn to play a game with my toes if I wanted to and be successful, that doesn't mean it's enjoyable or idea.

    I'm not sure how they'll handle it in FFXIV 2.0, but I remember 1.0 made the base keybindings much more in-line with what you see in other first/third person PC games, so I'm hoping that nothing will change in that regards for 2.0
    The style of keybinding your talking about hasn't been popular for 20 years, 15 might be pushing. Orginal Release of FFXI was locked down as they didn't want to people to change things... there was a reasons but no way in hell i'm digging through what... 10... 12 years of data to find one specific thing that honestly ins't really relevant any more (as you said they have changed to the more common binding method for 1.0 and 2.0). Your options were to use Ither standard Keyboard layout or Compact (laptop).

    When it launched in the US/Europe (think it was the same time, again not going to go digging) the control style wasn't common for what those players where used to. Target audience plays a big role in design aspects. Maybe for the time being instead of the FPS layout (wsad) the Asain (Japan specifically) favored a numpad layout for moving. I remember a friend of mine who played FPS's with an arrow key style (NP_0 was jump, ctrl was crouch, End was Secondary etc) because of some a very old game, and for him that was natural as it was natural to that old game. OT- It took about a week to get him to stop using it and switch to WSAD, which ironically also improved his skill, and his enjoyment as thing "clicked" more naturally as the game was made with that layout in mind.

    Your right.. and I feel, wrong at the same time. If you absolutely NEED to change bindings for the game to be enjoyable, then there is something else wrong. Think of it like this.. How Often (time period reference) did you need to go into a PS2 games control and change them to suit you.. not very often if at all (some still did). However, when it comes PC people act like this is necessary or the game is "flawed". You took the time to adjust to the PS2 controlls and still enjoyed the game, why is that not possible for PC?

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    The style of keybinding your talking about hasn't been popular for 20 years, 15 might be pushing.
    Actually, I think you'll find that ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64 games onwards often supported keybinding and switching to various joystick support methods as well.

    It really is just a case of adding some basic coding for the end user to have a more enjoyable gaming experience. Rebinding keys is as simple as 'input x causes y'.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by babalou1 View Post
    Then dont comment.

    FFXIV 2.0, which means there was a FFXIV 1.0 If you even remotely bothered to learn anything about FFXIV you would already have known that the 1.0 version of the game was keyboard/mouse friendly. They have stated they planned to keep it that way and 2.0 PC is keyboard/mouse friendly.
    Friendly, sure, but I was in the beta long enough to when they made it friendly for keyboard and mouse. I think I still preferred gamepad.

    Fact is, and this is the case with FFXI too, Final Fantasy games are menu based games. They always have been. All the abilities in FFXI were accessed in a menu. Sure, most people made macros to organize and add some commands to make them work better (along with gear swapping which was WAY WAY too prevalent in the game). Anyway, menu games are more friendly with a gamepad. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's just how it is.

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