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  1. #1

    Is this game's content still based on memorization?

    What drove me away is spending hours reading/watching guides and then more to play a hopeless fight ("practicing") that inevitably just made the whole group salty and disband.

    Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?

    I'm curious about the new expansion but if endgame raiding is still a rather unenjoyable experience then I think it's not for me.

  2. #2
    It sounds like the end game experience is more of a challenge than you like.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?
    This confuses me....

    Wow is the same way, There is ability's/patterns u must remember and depending what level of raiding you do in both games gear does matter less. In FFXIV it isn't hard to remember the stuff because it comes up as big ass orange circles u avoid.

    To me it sounds like you just don't want a MMO raiding experience, That is more then standing in one spot and smacking the boss.

    So I recommend LFR in WoW or the LFG raids in FFXIV since both have things u barely need to remember. FFXIV is harder in this regard then WoW.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2017-06-26 at 03:04 AM.

  4. #4
    I'd like an informative answer that doesn't resorts to snarky remarks. Is it still like that or not?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    I'd like an informative answer that doesn't resorts to snarky remarks. Is it still like that or not?
    You were given a straight up answer above. If that is "snarky" to you then I don't know what to say.

    Yes FF14 has fights that are mostly about memorisation and mechanics. As do a lot of MMOs with raiding. And the odd DPS checks.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    What drove me away is spending hours reading/watching guides and then more to play a hopeless fight ("practicing") that inevitably just made the whole group salty and disband.

    Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?

    I'm curious about the new expansion but if endgame raiding is still a rather unenjoyable experience then I think it's not for me.
    yes if you had any experience before it will likely seem the same.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    I'd like an informative answer that doesn't resorts to snarky remarks. Is it still like that or not?
    The info I gave was not snarky nore was I trying to sound like a ass.

  8. #8
    How is WoW not also about phases and patterns? It's literally about phases and patterns, you just have a fat addon telling you when it comes.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    I'd like an informative answer that doesn't resorts to snarky remarks. Is it still like that or not?
    You were answered, quite well, by Jtbrig7390 above you.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by zesilo View Post
    It sounds like the end game experience is more of a challenge than you like.
    Well let's be real, in ARR it really wasn't a fun challenge. You had a glorious start with the Hard mode Titan and its wonderful display of the game's phenomenal netcode with people getting hit by an AoE and their corpse being on the other side of the arena from it while they're going, "wtf...I was way out of that." Or what about T5 and that amazing mechanic that people could only do successfully by cheesing the bad netcode once again and positioning in a small divet in the floor then moving out at the exact right time. Or T7 and that wonderful add spawn RNG that could basically guarantee a wipe that was completely out of your control about 25% of the time (fun and fair!).

    Look I love FFXIV, and maybe later Alex Savage tiers were better but at least BC and first round of Savage Alex was just terrible. From what I hear they basically made further Savage content just braindead easy, probably because they can't figure how to make a fight that's both difficult and fair.

  11. #11
    Yes, it is still like that.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua View Post
    Well let's be real, in ARR it really wasn't a fun challenge. You had a glorious start with the Hard mode Titan and its wonderful display of the game's phenomenal netcode with people getting hit by an AoE and their corpse being on the other side of the arena from it while they're going, "wtf...I was way out of that." Or what about T5 and that amazing mechanic that people could only do successfully by cheesing the bad netcode once again and positioning in a small divet in the floor then moving out at the exact right time. Or T7 and that wonderful add spawn RNG that could basically guarantee a wipe that was completely out of your control about 25% of the time (fun and fair!).

    Look I love FFXIV, and maybe later Alex Savage tiers were better but at least BC and first round of Savage Alex was just terrible. From what I hear they basically made further Savage content just braindead easy, probably because they can't figure how to make a fight that's both difficult and fair.
    I won't deny that there are some notoriously bad bosses in Gordias savage and Coils savage, but I think "braindead easy" isn't a good description for a difficulty mode the vast majority of players don't bother with purely because of its difficulty, even when the later parts of Alex got tuned down compared to Gordias.

    Is it perfect? No, but shitting on FFXIV's boss design like some other MMO somehow has perfection when it comes to tuning (spoiler alert, there isn't one, not even the precious wow) is pretty damn laughable.
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  13. #13
    All the dungeons, raids and trials have bosses who follow certain ability patterns, yes, and the Extreme/Savage fights will be especially punishing to those who don't learn them, and to everyone else with them. But even the story content has this to some degree, though with time it'll get easier when more people gear and overgear the fights to lessen the impact of those who don't/won't perform the fight as well. Even the Elite Hunts out in the world have mechanics that can wipe you if you don't obey them, mostly the S-Rank ones.

    The closest you'll get away from that sort of thing is the Deep Dungeon, where randomness of floor, enemy and trap layout is the challenge. Its boss fights are far less punishing for the most part. But if you don't enjoy that sort of role-less rogue-lite action, then there's not much left for you besides dailies.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    How is WoW not also about phases and patterns? It's literally about phases and patterns, you just have a fat addon telling you when it comes.
    Well from my experience, and maybe this changed in the last 2 tiers of Alex Savage (I skipped those), FFXIV has a much more static feel in that, a boss generally does everything on set timers exactly the same every time with maybe one RNG mechanic (that they can rarely get right, See T7). Whereas WoW you see more of, "Boss has 30 second timers on this ability, but will use it anywhere from 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes). Makes each pull just a little bit more unique. And while WoW has several RNG factors they usually aren't as impactful as, say, BCT7 where add spawn and debuff targets can literally be a guaranteed wipe and that happens about 1/4 of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    I won't deny that there are some notoriously bad bosses in Gordias savage and Coils savage, but I think "braindead easy" isn't a good description for a difficulty mode the vast majority of players don't bother with purely because of its difficulty, even when the later parts of Alex got tuned down compared to Gordias.

    Is it perfect? No, but shitting on FFXIV's boss design like some other MMO somehow has perfection when it comes to tuning (spoiler alert, there isn't one, not even the precious wow) is pretty damn laughable.
    Well I'm not saying WoW is perfect, but it's pretty much night and day when it comes to progression raiding. I mean you have WoW with 10ish boss raid tiers, Legion doing an exception job pumping those out every 4-5 months. 4 difficulty modes. A very competitive race with tens of thousands of guilds pushing content. And while boss tuning can be totally whack sometimes (lol @ Mythic NH difficulty jump after Trilliax), at least you have like several tiers of progression and the bosses are much more fun to progress with more unique mechanics that, for the most part, are pretty fair. Meanwhile FFXIV...4 boss raid tiers with some extreme primals thrown in once in a while, and you're either living the Savage/Extreme life or you're in PUG city, there's very little in between (I suppose Extreme primals could be considered the in between).

    And yeah I have no idea if the last Alex tier was braindead easy, that's just what I've heard from some of my friends that have stuck it through. I can tell you right now I think the big difference between the FFXIV raider mentality and the WoW raider mentality is this: WoW raiders generally play WoW to raid. FFXIV raiders raid to slightly enhance their FFXIV experience lol. No one wants to sit on the 4 boss tiers for 6 months at a time no matter how tough they are or if they're even fun. I did 100+ Turn 9 pulls back when it was the toughest encounter in the game, about 20 pulls in I was definitely not having fun anymore but I did it because a) I liked the people and b) I wanted that title lol. I raid in WoW becuase a) it's fun and b) it's fun. I'm not saying I've never had fun with FFXIV raiding, but it's definitely not the reason I play and pretty much everyone I ended up progressing Savage with either was ignorant of the greener pastures that was the WoW raid scene or had some bitter hatred of Blizzard because "dey ruin da game by taking talent trees" or some other nonsense, which is hilarious coming from an FFXIV player considering the game has next to no player customization when it comes to battle mechanics.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua View Post
    Well from my experience, and maybe this changed in the last 2 tiers of Alex Savage (I skipped those), FFXIV has a much more static feel in that, a boss generally does everything on set timers exactly the same every time with maybe one RNG mechanic (that they can rarely get right, See T7). Whereas WoW you see more of, "Boss has 30 second timers on this ability, but will use it anywhere from 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes). Makes each pull just a little bit more unique. And while WoW has several RNG factors they usually aren't as impactful as, say, BCT7 where add spawn and debuff targets can literally be a guaranteed wipe and that happens about 1/4 of the time.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well I'm not saying WoW is perfect, but it's pretty much night and day when it comes to progression raiding. I mean you have WoW with 10ish boss raid tiers, Legion doing an exception job pumping those out every 4-5 months. 4 difficulty modes. A very competitive race with tens of thousands of guilds pushing content. And while boss tuning can be totally whack sometimes (lol @ Mythic NH difficulty jump after Trilliax), at least you have like several tiers of progression and the bosses are much more fun to progress with more unique mechanics that, for the most part, are pretty fair. Meanwhile FFXIV...4 boss raid tiers with some extreme primals thrown in once in a while, and you're either living the Savage/Extreme life or you're in PUG city, there's very little in between (I suppose Extreme primals could be considered the in between).

    And yeah I have no idea if the last Alex tier was braindead easy, that's just what I've heard from some of my friends that have stuck it through. I can tell you right now I think the big difference between the FFXIV raider mentality and the WoW raider mentality is this: WoW raiders generally play WoW to raid. FFXIV raiders raid to slightly enhance their FFXIV experience lol. No one wants to sit on the 4 boss tiers for 6 months at a time no matter how tough they are or if they're even fun. I did 100+ Turn 9 pulls back when it was the toughest encounter in the game, about 20 pulls in I was definitely not having fun anymore but I did it because a) I liked the people and b) I wanted that title lol. I raid in WoW becuase a) it's fun and b) it's fun. I'm not saying I've never had fun with FFXIV raiding, but it's definitely not the reason I play and pretty much everyone I ended up progressing Savage with either was ignorant of the greener pastures that was the WoW raid scene or had some bitter hatred of Blizzard because "dey ruin da game by taking talent trees" or some other nonsense, which is hilarious coming from an FFXIV player considering the game has next to no player customization when it comes to battle mechanics.
    who cares about the number of bosses in WoW when the first half of every raid is just filler bosses with 2 mechs for the majority to clear.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    who cares about the number of bosses in WoW when the first half of every raid is just filler bosses with 2 mechs for the majority to clear.
    And the 2 big bots in A1 or elevator trash gauntlets like T4 in FFXIV aren't? lol
    Last edited by Virtua; 2017-06-26 at 04:36 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    The info I gave was not snarky nore was I trying to sound like a ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    You were given a straight up answer above. If that is "snarky" to you then I don't know what to say.

    Yes FF14 has fights that are mostly about memorisation and mechanics. As do a lot of MMOs with raiding. And the odd DPS checks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    How is WoW not also about phases and patterns? It's literally about phases and patterns, you just have a fat addon telling you when it comes.
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You were answered, quite well, by Jtbrig7390 above you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    This confuses me....

    Wow is the same way, There is ability's/patterns u must remember and depending what level of raiding you do in both games gear does matter less. In FFXIV it isn't hard to remember the stuff because it comes up as big ass orange circles u avoid.

    To me it sounds like you just don't want a MMO raiding experience, That is more then standing in one spot and smacking the boss.

    So I recommend LFR in WoW or the LFG raids in FFXIV since both have things u barely need to remember. FFXIV is harder in this regard then WoW.
    not snarky at all. starts off being confused by the question, then answers it anyway "you dont like mmos, play wow"

    great answer ..yup

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    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    yes if you had any experience before it will likely seem the same.
    thanks for the real answer!!

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua View Post
    And the 2 big bots in A1 or elevator trash gauntlets like T4 in FFXIV aren't? lol
    yea the first boss is usually the easiest that's how raids go. they haven't even done a t4 boss since then either.

    i mean if you really wanted to look at numbers we get 5 bosses every 3 months. the team could just put out a 10 boss tier every 6 months and scale it down and call it lfr but they rather make ex primals and unique 24 mans instead.

  19. #19
    I mean again maybe I missed out on some super quality raid content with the tiers I skipped but this is what I remember of my FFXIV raiding experience:

    ARR Launch: Hard mode primals, half my friends quit after being Titan because "screw this game's netcode ain't doing progression content like lol". The remaining people I take into Binding Coil. We fight the DDR snake and kill him fast. We get to mini-boss bonanza T2, simple mechanics all the way through but lots of throughput required to do it legit. We go into T3...wtf...bounce around til you get the end cool onto T4. Elevator gauntlet, boring mechanics but again lot of throughput required, at this point people have been quitting left and right to go back to WoW and do Siege of Orgrimmar, which I ended up eventually doing as well...no regrets there, Siege >>>>>>>>> first coil lol. I eventually come back right before second coil release and clear T5 with some friends.

    Second Coil: Those friends and I formed a static and went ham on Second Coil. First boss is just a big plant, same model as the ochu fate, very disappointing, mechanics are stupid and wonky (people getting killed by not standing still and not doing actions when it's obvious they're not standing still and not doing actions, it's just the game's slow as a snail server tick rate). We kill it fast though and move on to T7. EL. OH. EL. We did maybe like 15 pulls before mutually agreeing it was stupid fight with stupid RNG mechanics and all of those guys ended up going back to WoW as well (I was playing WoW at the time already so no change for me there). I join another static, they had T7 on farm supposedly but we still wipefest for like an hour because of RNG. They also had recently killed T8 so I basically got carried through that, not that it was hard, it was more fun than T6 and T7 though that's for sure. Then begins the T9 nightmare. Well over a hundred pulls, about 16 hours of raiding a week for at least a couple months, and I really can't say it was fun. Challenging? Sure, most of the time wipes were our own fault. But the Mario Kart bullcrap with dropping meteors and the finickyness of the dragons that swoop across the arena in the last phase just really made it unfun, having to memorize a pattern of where to stand not based on like, where you physically think a dragon would charge forward (straight line) was stupid. I mean just look at this crap:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...PvrqqU1Ck/edit

    That's not fun and challenging for the right reasons. That's just a memory game and a finicky one at that too thanks to, once again, this game's awful net code and their decision to basically place everything server-side so they could better fight bots and cheaters (LOL I type that as I see yet another floating gatherer zoom by with a speed/position hack).

    Yeah, I skipped final coil and maybe I missed out. HW hype brought my friends and I back in to raid again and we all felt pretty much the same pretty early on and went right on back to WoW to raid lol.

    And I know I've been crapping on FFXIV's raiding so I'll end this with something more positive. FFXIV's pug content is much more fulfilling and rewarding than WoW's and most other MMOs IMO. The 24 man raids are always a joy and they're not so braindead easy that you can just afk like you can in LFR, most everyone needs to pull their weight or it will be a wipe. I've had many a wipe on Ozma and the 3rd boss of Dun Scaith, and I actually like that. I also think the primal battles are super badass, like in so many ways. Mechanically they're really not that special, but as far as visual flair they blow away every other MMO on the market including WoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    yea the first boss is usually the easiest that's how raids go. they haven't even done a t4 boss since then either.

    i mean if you really wanted to look at numbers we get 5 bosses every 3 months. the team could just put out a 10 boss tier every 6 months and scale it down and call it lfr but they rather make ex primals and unique 24 mans instead.
    Well personally I'd prefer a WoW-style system that makes their endgame less repetitive and last longer. Put in multiple difficulty modes, hell even the 24 man could have that, might reinvigorate FCs and Linkshells and create some big communities (let's be real just about every non-static LS and pretty much every FC exists primarily for social reasons and for people to ERP with each other haha).

    Look at what Legion did with Mythic+. That's a great example of making your content last and be appealing for players of all skill levels. I'm not saying multiple difficulty modes is the correct choice but let's take a look at what WoW's had in the last year since Legion released:

    Emerald Nightmare: 7 bosses. Sure you can say some are filler but man, I'd have to disagree. Everyone we kill is either some major lore figure or an epic old God infested beast.
    Trial of Valor: 3 bosses and okay...they're all filler except Helya lol.
    Nighthold: 10 bosses. I'd say the first 4 are pretty fillerish, after that though you have some pretty epic bosses. Star Augur with that sick arena, taking on Tichondrius, avenging Bolvar with Krosus, putting the leader of the Nightborne down, finally taking out Gul'dan. Cool stuff.
    Tomb of Sargeras: 9 bosses. A lot of them are filler but man some of these fights are really, really cool. Some very unique mechanics so far. And Fallen Avatar and Kil'jaeden is just epic as all hell.

    And you can tackle all of the above content with a variety of different levels of enthusiasm...LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic. And Mythic usually changes boss mechanics so much that the fights are barely recognizable from their LFR/Normal/Heroic counterparts.

    In FFXIV in a year we get...3 extreme primal fights and 2 4 boss raid tiers. And let's be honest with ourselves, while the overall quality of each boss may be better than the average WoW boss, there's definitely some filler here and there and you're left with very few memorable encounters. The Extreme primals are definitely cool though and I've yet to see WoW really top anything like Extreme Sephirot or Thordan in terms of epicness.
    Last edited by Virtua; 2017-06-26 at 05:04 AM.

  20. #20
    Once more, I have to ask why people think that raids have to be super difficult and challenging so that they can be enjoyed.
    It's really not like FFXIV raid are WoW-LFR quality in difficulty, so there is some challenge to it. DPS checks are easy if you can play your class (if..)..most of the time that is.

    Yet FFXIV has something WoW doesn't have.
    Boss encounters that feel "epic" - even though I don't like to use that word.


    That alone is worth more than anything when it comes to raiding. It's pretty much why most of us started raiding anyway.
    The only boss I enjoyed in Legion so far (in terms of looks) was Star Augur.
    WoW raids have basically nothing to offer but difficulty.. and it's probably the reason why they are so difficult/tuned like that in the first place.

    And another big bonus point is that there is nearly no trash in FFXIV Raids / Trials


    Look at what Legion did with Mythic+. That's a great example of making your content last and be appealing for players of all skill levels. I'm not saying multiple difficulty modes is the correct choice but let's take a look at what WoW's had in the last year since Legion released:
    eh... I thought so too, but after a while, you just stop caring about it. Last mythic+ I did was 2++ months ago. The items aren't appealing, the AP isn't that important anymore, and that's basically the only reason why you'd want to farm that shit.
    Same thing with FFXIV DR imho.
    Last edited by KrayZee; 2017-06-26 at 05:12 AM.

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