[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Faroth]

I'm not disagreeing with your other points, but don't you think BOTH the 8 and 24 man are side stories? None of them are tied to the MSQ events of 3.0-3.55 unless I am remembering wrong.

Alexander is a side story around Cid, Mide, and the goblin-based Illuminati, and the 24 man ark and onward is essentially using a Sky Pirate theme as a vessel to explore the remnants of the Mhach civilization from the Fifth Astral Era/Sixth Umbral Era.

You could skip both of them and still see the Dragonsong War unfold, and then the events that lead up to Baelsar's Wall without missing anything.

Yeah, currently they're both completely side stories to the MSQ, fully agree there. I meant if either raid were to be more tied into the main story, I'd rather it have gone the direction of 24 man being more main story related. Bahamut's Coil was something of a final resolution to the main story of 1.0, for example. And the events of Cartenaeu and Louisioux were referenced often in 2.0's MSQ. I'd likely have leaned more towards that resolution being in 24 man and Crystal Tower being the 8 man savage setting.

But it's hard to justify friggin' Bahamut not being the top tier of challenging content, so I get why they went with that for savage raid.

- - - Updated - - -

Homie I didn't need you go to into the context of the content, just merely that the system itself would be more engaging, thus less IG compared to the existing system, which was rallied against for reasons, but IG wasn't one of them ever mentioned.

Getting in to VERY briefly because I could honestly write a fucking thesis on the topic of Materia, I firmly believe that we could develop interesting and relatively balanced choices that wouldn't be mandated as one right way.



I think you got off topic. My post was in regards to specific examples, the first of which was the Materia system. The current Materia system is just quest rewards (IG) or MB (IG). Yes you could SB gear to get Materia as well, which is not IG. My system required much more effort to reap rewards therefore less IG.



Again, I think you missed the point on this one. I'm not debating the fact of devoting more/less time to anything. I'm merely stating I offered ideas to expand content areas and there were rallied against for multitudes of reasons, but IG was never one mentioned.

That was to say, based on your statement of "instant gratification is a major reason people don't want change", which I refuted with examples. There are probably a half a dozen reasons why people don't want change, and we can hash them out if you truly want (I don't see much value in it atm), but I truly don't think aversion to instant gratification is at the forefront.

I don't think we're on the same book, let alone the same page in regards to this. I never said nor meant that opposition to instant gratification is the foundation for every opposition to every suggested change. Feel like there's a lot of misinterpretation of what I was saying being shoehorned here to apply to other things.

Me either. I hated that normal 8 man was in. I just hate the idea of 24 mans. They're so beautiful, but the assets are criminally underused. I'd love real engaging content based on those encounters and I think the encounter team could do it without taking away a considerable amount of dev time from other content streams, I truly do.

I don't think a solution is "10% of the playerbsae get content, get rekt casuals" so I think the 24 man is pretty good in offering that balance. Plus it's about infinity times superior to WoW's LFR model. I know you think everyone sleeps on their keyboard and clears 24 man content, but it's not that faceroll and it's not because FFXIV's community is so horrible, they suck beyond belief and nobody plays worth shit either. (take that light hearted, I'm not implying that last part is your position)

I think at this juncture it would be very helpful for you and I to define "instant gratification". I'm not sure I completely follow your thoughts on this (and I normally don't have an issue following your logic, but I'm lost lol).

To me Instant Gratification (IG) is the relationship between high value rewards for low impact effort AND time. Let me also say that IG in and of itself isn't inherently bad, but like all things too much of it, or not enough can be bad.

I think currencies like hunt marks rewarding gear, story quests handing you full sets of gear, Materia as rewards from quests etc. qualify as IG. I do not think Anima quest lines qualify. I do not think EX trials or Savage Raiding qualify.

I agree with you on the definition and agree it's not inherently bad. The quests giving a set of gear to get everyone to a starting baseline is a fine starting point and the materia from quests are currently rare enough that I don't have a big issue with how they're used, so agree it's not bad in and of itself.

What I meant with the overlapping is a lot of content that was previously its own tier of progression is now outdated almost immediately because there's so many half step progression options they make each other immediately irrelevant. In 2.x I would gear up through tomestones via roulettes, etc, but that was still a good stance below Coil gear. When 24 man patch hit, I was getting upgrades that were just a step below coil. So for me Tomestone > 24 man was a progression path. In Heavensward it's tomestone > normal raid > 24 man patch with my gear already equal to the new patch gear. The only incentive is the coin to get the last upgrade on gear, which then puts my gear better than a lot of the next patch until a new tomestone is introduced.

Basically adding the 8 man normal mode put an extra gear progression path that overlaps others and throws the back and forth 2.x had out of balance. It's designed as though each of those paths are their own progression path rather than all of them being dabbled in.

A way I'd break that up is to split up things a bit where you get (examples here) ilvl 200 armor from raid and ilvl 190 armor from tomestones, but ilvl 200 rings are from tomestones and 190 from raids while bracelets and earrings are from EX Primals, etc.

Basically by adding the 8 man normal, I think the spread of gear needs to go out to various content rather than acting like each content lane is a full progression path unto itself.

What I can say though is that my brother went through the game, he watched most of the cutscenes, and got bored at max level. My friend Ken did the exact same thing. So I can state that I know 2 IRL people who have done just that. The MSQ doesn't engage everyone (I bet StrawberryZebra fits this mold as well). The point I was making is that these aren't bad people and shouldn't be told to GTFO of the game.

Now I'm confused... they got through MSQ, but got bored at max level? Isn't that after the MSQ is over they got bored?

[The Casualty]

As far as the MSQ is concerned - I can see how 2.1-2.4 can turn people off. It was horribly paced, and not a lot of interesting stuff happens. I'll admit, I skipped through most of it (I started the game in 2.4-2.5) and just read a synopsis later. The conclusion of 2.0 and of ARR in 2.55 were pretty good though.

HW has done a lot better with pacing and engaging story telling. I'm usually a power gamer seeking difficult content to chew through, but I really liked what this expansion had to offer. Except for Churning Mists. I have never hated Moogles so much in a Final Fantasy game.

[Resiak]

As far as the MSQ is concerned - I can see how 2.1-2.4 can turn people off. It was horribly paced, and not a lot of interesting stuff happens. I'll admit, I skipped through most of it (I started the game in 2.4-2.5) and just read a synopsis later. The conclusion of 2.0 and of ARR in 2.55 were pretty good though.

HW has done a lot better with pacing and engaging story telling. I'm usually a power gamer seeking difficult content to chew through, but I really liked what this expansion had to offer. Except for Churning Mists. I have never hated Moogles so much in a Final Fantasy game.

As someone that is protective of the MSQ, I actually can agree with this. A lot of the filler could be cleaned up. 2.1 - 2.4 is stretched out because we got that content over the course of 2 years, and the quest lines where stretched so that people wern't completing every patch in an hour.We don't need all this anymore, and the filler portions could be side quests instead. The only problem is, I don't think they see it as worth it to pull someone off of new content to restructure old quest lines.

[Berethos08]

As someone that is protective of the MSQ, I actually can agree with this. A lot of the filler could be cleaned up. 2.1 - 2.4 is stretched out because we got that content over the course of 2 years, and the quest lines where stretched so that people wern't completing every patch in an hour.We don't need all this anymore, and the filler portions could be side quests instead. The only problem is, I don't think they see it as worth it to pull someone off of new content to restructure old quest lines.

2.1 to 2.4 also feel more stretched out because they include the foundation for Stormblood - the Crystal Braves (which impact HW as well), the Ala Mhigan refugees, the Doman refugees - that's all a significant part of 2.1 to 2.4 mixed in with the Primal problems that likewise introduce concepts important to both expansions and the ongoing nature of the Echo and the Ascians.

3.x is noticeably lighter because it focuses on finishing HW, the brief arc with the WoD, relegates the Warring Triad to optional status (though it easily could have been included as MSQ), and then picks up with the Ala Mhigan and Doma stuff that the early 2.x series began...instead of having to set up all that stuff and move the story forward, it gets to just move the story forward.

[Resiak]

2.1 to 2.4 also feel more stretched out because they include the foundation for Stormblood - the Crystal Braves (which impact HW as well), the Ala Mhigan refugees, the Doman refugees - that's all a significant part of 2.1 to 2.4 mixed in with the Primal problems that likewise introduce concepts important to both expansions and the ongoing nature of the Echo and the Ascians.

3.x is noticeably lighter because it focuses on finishing HW, the brief arc with the WoD, relegates the Warring Triad to optional status (though it easily could have been included as MSQ), and then picks up with the Ala Mhigan and Doma stuff that the early 2.x series began...instead of having to set up all that stuff and move the story forward, it gets to just move the story forward.

Which makes me think of a compromise. Keep the MSQ focused squarely on the main narrative. But create a new type of quest that is meant to back up and expand on the story. These filler quests can be under this new quest type, and those of us that like this stuff can do it.

[Anzaman]

Now I'm confused... they got through MSQ, but got bored at max level? Isn't that after the MSQ is over they got bored?

Biggest problem with MSQ, is the fact that it tends to end too fast. Waiting for next patch of Quests is so boring.

[Berethos08]

Which makes me think of a compromise. Keep the MSQ focused squarely on the main narrative. But create a new type of quest that is meant to back up and expand on the story. These filler quests can be under this new quest type, and those of us that like this stuff can do it.

Arguably they began this with the Warring Triad - it's important to the lore in terms of what it adds but it's entirely optional.

The drawback to this approach is they are limited in how much it can impact the main story should it involve characters that are part of the MSQ.

[Kazgrel]

At least with the SB story, the raid will be an offshoot from the main story. That was the thing about Alexander that bugged me; "zomg a wild primal appears" was pretty much how it started, least from what I remember. In it's defense, it ended on a bit of a neat note, but even as someone who wasn't really around for ARR, the impact of having a raid where you are investigating and eventually face Bahamut, the primal that nearly wiped out a nation, was far more significant in the story overall than how Alex just shows up out of left field.

[Graeham]

I'm still bitter that they cut out The Warring Triad stuff and made it optional. Azyz Lla was an incredible zone and Regula Van Hydrus deserved more time in the spotlight and his voice actor to be used for all of his lines.

[blackpink]

Only thing that would make me quit ff14 is a dbm addon and rng with gear, mainly the dumbass titanforge/warforged crap. If I wanted to farm for gear I'd play diablo and there's a reason I don't play games like that. I raid because I find it fun and dbm destroys a lot of that fun. As for the gear part, well I also enjoy going for speed kill and personal bests for parses and having to rely on getting wf/tf gear and/or that specific legendary to be 99% is just super dumb.

ps: I'm not saying I am a 99% player or anything like that. but it's what I try to go for.

[StrawberryZebra]

Remember that by not liking Tataru means you've invested your feelings into NOT liking her.

I don't like her because she kept getting herself into trouble and I had to go to her rescue every single time. There are like... 8 different "save Tataru" quests just in the gap between ARR and Heavensward, not to mention that time where you have to go stand in for her when she's put on trial in Ishgard. It gets tiresome. I really do not like damsels in distress.

Now, I'll give you the opportunity, if you could change the MSQ to be optional how would the game be structured? Walk me through your ideal interpretation of FF14 leveling to current endgame. What type of flow would varying players follow? A few examples would be ideal. How would I approach it based on my personality? How would Faroth? How would you?

If I had the opportunity to re-do the leveling from scratch, I would most likely make the following changes;

• The MSQ would still be availible for players to complete, and would still serve as a means to lead you to level appropriate areas for the players that require it. Completing it would not be a requirement to unlocking Dungeons or other group content.
• Quest hubs that focus on telling the story of their region, and the people that live in it, and offer more XP as a reward for completing them.
• Put more emphasis on zone and regional stories. You go to a ton of interesting places in FF14. I'd much rather have regional quests about Nymian ruins or those cool looking crystals in Ul'dah. As it is, you can go exploring all of these amazing places, but there's very little to actually DO in them. I would also hide achivements and bonus quests, mini-dungeons etc in these kinds of places for players to discover too.
• More FATE chains, somewhat similar to those in GW2. They're a great way of introducing important NPC's, factions and done well can be a fantastic world building tool. Most of all they feel like organic and natural quest chains rather than exposition delivery mechanisms.
• Remove the limits on Levequests. These are great for the players who want to just zone out and blast through some no hassle quests while they have a bit of free time. Abnegation has always been a great draw for any video game, and these provide it in spades.
• I'd leave PotD as it is. It serves it's purpose well enough, and has it's own self contained story and lore elements.

I would expect that most players would still opt for doing the MSQ, afterall it does provide the most XP as well as covers the overarching story of the game and takes you to level appropriate areas. Those who, for whatever reason, weren't engaged by the story would have plenty of alternative means to level and would still be exposed to the worldbuilding and lore of the game. For those who really get off the beaten path, there'd be lots more hidden secrets and cool challenges for them to find. Anyone who just wanted to mindlessly grind their way through to max level could. It would offer a viable means of leveling for just about every playstyle and player type, rather than forcing everyone to conform to a "one size fits all" solution. It would also offer alternate means to level for other jobs too, since XP would be split better between MSQ and regional quests.

The fact that everyone (or most everyone since it's technically possible to level to 60 without ever setting foot in HW zone) at 60 has gone through the MSQ means that you won't find people who are only in the game for a quick jaunt, they're invested, or at least more invested in the game and/ or their character than someone who just purchased WoW Legion and instantly has a level 100 character and has literally zero idea wtf is going only 5 minutes into their WoW experience.

Or you have players like myself, who resented having to do the MSQ but grudgingly did it so we could get to the content we really wanted to do. In this case, it makes you feel less invested in my character because I've had to go through lots of pointless crap to get to where we want to be. Particularly between ARR and HW, it feels less like character building and more like character stagnation.

Second of all, being outright hostile to players fair weather players tends to hurt companies more than it helps. It's very common in MMO's to subscribe when a new patch is out, complete the content, then let it lapse to play another MMO for a while. Being exclusionary to these kinds of players by demanding they complete a lengthy quest chain to do the new content keeps them from coming back at best, and prevents them from becoming long term subs at worst.

[Katchii]

Or you have players like myself, who resented having to do the MSQ but grudgingly did it so we could get to the content we really wanted to do. In this case, it makes you feel less invested in my character because I've had to go through lots of pointless crap to get to where we want to be. Particularly between ARR and HW, it feels less like character building and more like character stagnation.

Second of all, being outright hostile to players fair weather players tends to hurt companies more than it helps. It's very common in MMO's to subscribe when a new patch is out, complete the content, then let it lapse to play another MMO for a while. Being exclusionary to these kinds of players by demanding they complete a lengthy quest chain to do the new content keeps them from coming back at best, and prevents them from becoming long term subs at worst.

I understand your point, but then you're not the type of player this game was/ is aimed at to begin with. The fact that you like the other stuff enough to go through the story anyway is fantastic and a bonus but it's a story centric game, it's a Final Fantasy game, you should have known that coming into it, and you stuck with it through all of the "useless crap" anyway to get to the parts you wanted to play. That's kind of what I'm referring to when I say invested, you "suffered" your way through all of that stuff either enjoyably or not. It's somewhat of a moot point now though since they'll be introducing the MSQ skip potions for all of ARR and HW content just so people can get right into the current content.

Also, SE has never been outright hostile to anyone. It's their game, they designed it to be experienced a certain way and if you want to play it they want you to experience it the way they designed. That's no more hostile than any restaurant that expects you to come in with clothes, order off their menu, eat off the plates they give you and basically act like a civilized human being.

Edit: I feel like my post came across unnecessarily aggressive. My argument and stance is not that players who dislike or do not care for the story are unwelcome or don't belong here (I still wonder WHY you're here, but that doesn't mean I don't want you here or actively want you gone), it's that the game was designed as it is now for a reason. It's as successful as it is now because of what kind of game it is now. Asking to make the MSQ optional or to sideline the story is change to the core design philosophy of the game. Even with the introduction of the MSQ skip potion they're still communicating that the story is so important to the design that you have to pay to get around it, they're not changing how central the story is to the game.

The game is great as it is, in it's current iteration, with its current design philosophy and design team. Changing the core design would cause this game to be something other than what it is now and I, and others like me, just want the game to stay true to it's core designs. That's why I love this game. That's why I bought it. That's why I play it. That's why I defend it and post on forums like this about it. Don't ask to turn this game into a different game, because that's exactly what making the MSQ an optional side quest would do.

[Scufflegrit]

Put more emphasis on zone and regional stories. You go to a ton of interesting places in FF14. I'd much rather have regional quests about Nymian ruins or those cool looking crystals in Ul'dah. As it is, you can go exploring all of these amazing places, but there's very little to actually DO in them. I would also hide achivements and bonus quests, mini-dungeons etc in these kinds of places for players to discover too.

I'm assuming you mean in Thanalan out in the open world, as really the only crystals in Ul'dah are the Aetherytes. So stuff like The Burning Wall?

[Berethos08]

I don't like her because she kept getting herself into trouble and I had to go to her rescue every single time. There are like... 8 different "save Tataru" quests just in the gap between ARR and Heavensward

Funny how one quest became eight.

Ancient Ways, Timeless Wants - that's the one quest between ARR and HW where you come to her aid, and that's because you're there acting as her body guard as she gathers Blood Pearls.

We all know you have a particular distaste for the MSQ as it currently is, but is the hyperbolic inaccuracies of your complaints necessary?

[Kaelwryn]

Funny how one quest became eight.

Ancient Ways, Timeless Wants - that's the one quest between ARR and HW where you come to her aid, and that's because you're there acting as her body guard as she gathers Blood Pearls.

We all know you have a particular distaste for the MSQ as it currently is, but is the hyperbolic inaccuracies of your complaints necessary?

Actually, there is atleast one or two other quests involving her and helping her out. Where she's branching out, trying to be more than a secretary. I wanna say its no more than two or three quests at most tho. But there's definitely more than just that one.

[Kyriani]

Yea theres the one where she tries to be an arcanist, you help here there. The one where she tries mining, you save her from a morbol, and the last one was the pearls. I can't recall anything more than that outside of standing in for her at the trial.

[Granyala]

My friend (who brought me to this game initially) quit due to the MSQ (or rather specifically: due to stuff being locked behind it).

It's not that he hates story or anything but he is a super-duper casual that never plays very long per session.
It turned out that he logged in, found himself in the moot to run a quick dungeon or sth with me, but nope he'd have to quest for 3 hours just to unlock crap and be able to play with me.

Eventually that being "locked out" drove him to quit the game.

[Anzaman]

The Make It Rain Campaign Returns May 29!

Come one, come all, to the Gold Saucer! Step right up for a chance to earn MGP like never before. For a limited time only, rewards for all attractions including GATEs, minigames, and the Cactpot have been increased by 50%! We've also procured a selection of tantalizing prizes for this special occasion, so be sure to drop by and partake in this celebration of revelry and riches!

http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...rain_campaign/

[Graeham]

More Triple Triad cards, eh?

Can't complain about another hairstyle, either - though it doesn't look like one that I'll use myself. I may even be able to purchase one of the 1 million MGP mounts as a result of the increased MGP gain, too. I think I'll go for the floating chair.

[Kaelwryn]

More Triple Triad cards, eh?

Can't complain about another hairstyle, either - though it doesn't look like one that I'll use myself. I may even be able to purchase one of the 1 million MGP mounts as a result of the increased MGP gain, too. I think I'll go for the floating chair.

Archon Throne is only 750k :P Should be able to get it quick ish!