[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Katchii]

What if you were vastly better geared, and still lagged behind hard on DPS? That's a serious flaw thats on you, and on you alone. A DPS meter could highlight that to you, and give you some insight as to how to fix it.

The real danger with these kinds of situations is that DPS who are being carried thinking they're actually making a serious contribution. If they're consistently being sucessful in the content they've got no real reason to ask those kinds of questions. Afterall, the boss did die, so you did just fine. Right?

Without some outside intervention they're never going to examine their own play habits and look at how they can fix their issues. A DPS meter puts an actual numerical value on just how much you're contributing which makes it hard to ignore. If you're lagging behind, you can see how much you need to improve. It also offers you a very clear goal too - Make that number go up!

Read the rest of my post, I answered this already.

[threads]

Saw this on Reddit.



https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...eable/de5r8ud/

omg i can't wait for these.

[Faroth]

It's useful feedback. Where it falls short, in my opinion, is in being actionable. If you're underperforming on DPS regularly how do you go about changing that? Reading a guide can help fix any serious rotational flaws, but they're somewhat limited in scope beyond that. Practicing the fight and getting better gear can help too, but they're not the whole story. If you've got other issues that are holding you back, such as performing your rotation too slowly and leaving a gap between each skill then a guide isn't going to fix that. The only way an issue like this is going to be apparent is if you've got someone constantly watching you play who could point it out to you, or if you're able to pull the information you need from a DPS meter.

BLM[ 1500 ]
DRG[ 1250 ]
NIN[ 900 ]
PLD[ 300 ]

^ Tells a player absolutely nothing either.

This is what I'm referring to when I'm saying I think it may be important for us to start being very specific when we're talking about DPS meters vs parsing logs.

A real time meter only tells you placement in the race, not what to do to advance your placement.

Though I'd say if you just want your placement in the party, glance at the threat indication in the party UI. Are you just below the tanks? 2nd DPS below the tanks? Your DPS is higher than others. That's about all a live meter tells you as well, only it gives you a number with it.

Now parsing logs I can see being a different evaluation tool.

[Wrecktangle]

As I already said, this isn't the situation where I say meters aren't necessary. You're thinking about how a meter can be applied to a player who's already relatively skilled, and may just need more practice, and is trying to improve their output. They're not trying to learn their class at this point, they're optimizing their playstyle to eke out as much DPS as possible.

I'm probably just doing a completely garbage job of explaining what I am trying to say. Think of the guy standing floating on that fancy mount you've never seen before. You like it and want to know more about it. Maybe you ask, maybe you look it up on your own. Either way a FEEDBACK loop was completed. You saw something you took action.

Mechanically a DPS meter can function identically If you see someone else on top, you're going to look at it. Maybe ask questions, maybe think about it. The point is the feedback is there if you want it. Without it, you don't know anything so there's no action to take. I don't think the skilled vs. non-skilled is a relevant factor in this equation.

If you think of player skill and DPS output as a spectrum

Terrible [----------------------------------------------------] Amazing

A DPS meter isn't going to make a Terrible player Amazing, or make Terrible DPS Amazing. Practice and understanding your class mechanics will get you to ~ here on the spectrum.

No amount of practicing the wrong thing will give you amazing DPS. You need to be practicing the right thing and in order to do that you need a meter to give you the data you need to become amazing. Relying on guides to tell you the right thing then practicing that blindly is not the best course of action. So in effect it is 100% possible for a meter to be used as a tool to go from 0 to hero.

All I'm saying is that a meter doesn't fix everything, and can't/ won't make someone play better, it just measures performance. Only a player who's willing to look up guides and information on their class and playstyle, put that information into practice and basically apply the scientific method (test, measure, analyze, adjust, etc...) will improve. A meter CAN be one of the tools used to do this, but it doesn't HAVE to be at least not until you really get to the higher end of the spectrum and are really min/maxing your gear and the fight. For many people just a fundamental understanding of class and fight mechanics is enough to get by in the majority of the content, and a meter isn't necessary to get to this level.

That's exactly my point. I'm not claiming it to be necessary for everyone, I'm saying that it isn't bad for the game. It will help those who want to use the tool with no discernible negative outcome for those not interested.

This is what shuts down conversation. "My way is the only way that is conceivably valid. Yoshida is stupid" automatically kills any interest in attempting discussion with you.

Not trying to shut down conversation - you know me better than that. I just fail to see a single solitary merit of a personal DPS meter. I looked at it from every angle I could think of and I just don't see one. I'm more than willing to eat my words if someone can frame a solid argument for why it should exist over a full monty meter.

1) You can't analyze yourself against teammates to measure your performance.
2) You can't compare yourself against other people of the same job.

Sure you can test an opener using a personal meter, but you can do that with an existing tool in game.

If they had a system that informed you that you underperformed on the fight's tuning of X DPS, took Y amount of avoidable damage, etc, etc. that seems like useful information without the party epeen meters.

The issue with this system is that you already know for a fact if you underperformed the fights dps tuning, because you wiped. If you're referring to the system being personal only, sure I'd know that I pass/failed the check, but I have no idea who didn't, I have no idea by how much, and I'd have absolutely no information as to how to suggest fixing the dps problem.

The issue with that is how would it be scaled? The idea itself isn't terrible, but the implementation seems beyond difficult. Does it measure performance on pre-defined parameters (easiest)? Does it measure them based on your parties performance? Does it measure them by everyone who's ever done it overall ever?

If it was predefined you'd run into a situation where once you outscale it the data is basically meaningless. If it scales off your party you could be giving a player information that he did really well, except overall he was the 19th worst DRG ever. He just was unlucky enough that he had even worse teammates. Sure they passed the trial, not because of anything good, just that the encounter was specifically tuned for a player to play with their eyes closed and press 1 button over and over again.

Also, you're a fool! NUCLEAR ENGINES ON ICE CREAM TRUCKS WOULD MAKE THEM HELLA FASTER! WE SHALL BE RICH!

True, as a car enthusiast I like the idea of fast ice cream trucks. Maybe that's what Sweet Tooth's truck had it in (twisted metal reference)?

I've not once seen anyone say anything about ilvl in FFXIV other than Party Finder stating requirements for that group.
I've seen people respond positively and helpful to new player bonus, even happy to be getting the bonus. I've never seen a complaint. Not once. I'm not exaggerating, I have NEVER ONCE seen a complaint about that.
I've not seen x class complaints either. For pre-made groups, they may want a particular group make up, as stated in party finder based on how they set it up, but I've never seen it a topic of complaint or used against a player.

PF and server chat are the only 2 places you could possibly impose restrictions, and that's exactly where they're prevalent. This is where where people are discriminated against as you testified to above. I'm not saying it happens everywhere. PF is the only place that actually matters in the context of this discussion. DF is for old or trivial content that you couldn't honestly fail if you tried so largely speaking, class, ilvl, and new player bonus are irrelevant, thus they're not discriminated against here.

I've joined several PF groups before and as soon as someone saw new person bonus, the group lost members. Sometimes so many the run ended before it even started. That's the true nature of doing PF current content sometimes.

For that matter, I didn't see these as often in WoW as the DPS meter shit talk. So I'm still standing by my analogy.

I liked mine better personally, but I hear you. Humor me though. When was the last time you saw DPS meter shit talk in WoW. Just name an expansion/raid/dungeon. Just so I have an idea. For me personally, it was wotlk. Last time I ever saw it.

It's not permitted in WoW, yet you've got a decent number right here saying it became something they were accustomed to seeing.

To be fair, I'd take a bet that 85% of the people who say they saw it all the time were probably the ones doing it or were exaggerating considerably. They probably had it happen to them once personally, and now it shapes their entire belief system around that one occurrence. That's just my .02. In my years of gaming I've found my experiences to be largely pleasant with only a VERY small handful of incidents. That's across over a decade of gaming.

However, let's make sure we're on the same page because I'm seeing two phrases used and they maybe aren't supposed to be interchangeable. I'm not even sure people are intending to use them as such, but others (including me) have taken them as such. So let me make sure so we aren't speaking about totally different things.

Are we talking DPS meters?
or
Are we talking about parsing logs?

Or are we talking about both?

To be fair I am speaking about meters. They are very closely tied together so I can understand the need to clarify. Logs are great for going over the data in a very vivid detailed manner graphically, but sometimes all you need is the quick nitty gritty in between pulls to identify/correct/optimize.

I want to know why an add didn't die. I want to look at the damage and see someone who isn't doing their job. I want to see what someones b4b uptime is in a quick snapshot.

BLM[ 1500 ]
DRG[ 1250 ]
NIN[ 900 ]
PLD[ 300 ]

^ Tells a player absolutely nothing either.

This is what I'm referring to when I'm saying I think it may be important for us to start being very specific when we're talking about DPS meters vs parsing logs.

A real time meter only tells you placement in the race, not what to do to advance your placement.

Though I'd say if you just want your placement in the party, glance at the threat indication in the party UI. Are you just below the tanks? 2nd DPS below the tanks? Your DPS is higher than others. That's about all a live meter tells you as well, only it gives you a number with it.

Now parsing logs I can see being a different evaluation tool.

It tells you to ask questions. Which has kinda been the focal point of my entire stance.

Not sure if you know this or not, but your average WoW dps meter tells you WAY more than the damage race. It can tell you who died, when they died, and how they died. It can tell you buff/debuff uptimes. It can tell you how much damage a specific person did to a specific add. It can tell you who took how much damage from what (mechanics failing), It can tell you their resource management and gcd usage. It can tell you almost the same logs can, it's just not as visually robust or interactive.

Hope that helps.

I have seen it. (You see a lot over course of 10 years ) But it is quite rare. Mostly they make fun of underperforming people in TS but if everything goes well they ultimately don't give a damn.

Shit. I wasn't counting voice coms private bashing. If so it'd be more common. Should I be counting it if it doesn't happen to the person? I personally don't believe so, but it's an interesting point I hadn't considered.

Is it considered harassment if I say in a PM to you that Faroth is a smelly night elf? He doesn't hear it or see it, and no feelings are hurt.

[Anzaman]

@ Yuna costume: Really pretty, but I'm not forking over 30€ for that.

Yeah, got lucky and grabbed last FanFest for 20€ - sadly they "fixed" it shortly afterwards, so other people couldn't take advantage of it.

[The Casualty]

Though I'd say if you just want your placement in the party, glance at the threat indication in the party UI. Are you just below the tanks? 2nd DPS below the tanks? Your DPS is higher than others.

That is not even close to true. Some classes have better ways to mitigate threat than others. A SMN, even a good one, will have their threat shared with their pet. Some classes will have access to quelling or threat dumps, and as a WAR, I can just not use Butcher's Block if I want to give my co-tank some breathing room so they don't have to lower their DPS with aggro combos.

The only thing that the threat indicator tells you is how close your threat is from the lead. Full stop.

[StrawberryZebra]

Though I'd say if you just want your placement in the party, glance at the threat indication in the party UI. Are you just below the tanks? 2nd DPS below the tanks? Your DPS is higher than others. That's about all a live meter tells you as well, only it gives you a number with it.

Now parsing logs I can see being a different evaluation tool.

For all intents and purposes, they're the same tool. I don't think I've ever seen a DPS meter that didn't include, at the very least, some form of damage break down. I admit, I've not used the FF14 one, but I would assume it functions more or less identically to every other DPS meter ever made for every MMORPG ever. Having access to that kind of information the second after a boss fight ends can really help in combing through it. Being able to track the dips in your damage and relate them to fight mechanics provides context for evaluating your performance.

You might not have the time to dig in depth through your Meter, but it does provide a wealth of information if you choose to look for it. Even at a cursory glance, being able to quickly see that you only cast 19 Fire IV's and they made up 25% of your total damage output, while the Black Mage at the top cast 42 and they made up 60% of his damage marks a very clear, and obvious, path you could take to improve.

BLM[ 1500 ]
DRG[ 1250 ]
NIN[ 900 ]
PLD[ 300 ]

^ Tells a player absolutely nothing either.

More than you might think. Even just putting your own performance into some form of context is helpful. A DPS number is a far more precise measurement than a binary Yes/No output. The fact it's quantifiable tells you more than something like a rating out of 5 stars.

It tells you that your black mage does 600 more DPS than your Ninja does, and that your Ninja does 3 times the DPS your Paladin does. If you were the Ninja in this example, it gives you a concrete goal of where you should aim to be - at least 1250 DPS. My knowledge of psychology is somewhat lacking, but I understand that having hard targets for improvement has been shown to help people far more than looser statements like "Improve my DPS".

[Faroth]

@Wrecktangle

You write a lot and I'm quickly sneaking a peak. Not ignoring, but can't respond atm! :3

That is not even close to true. Some classes have better ways to mitigate threat than others. A SMN, even a good one, will have their threat shared with their pet. Some classes will have access to quelling or threat dumps, and as a WAR, I can just not use Butcher's Block if I want to give my co-tank some breathing room so they don't have to lower their DPS with aggro combos.

The only thing that the threat indicator tells you is how close your threat is from the lead. Full stop.

Fair point. Quelling strikes, etc. Wasn't thinking about those.

[Kazgrel]

ACT provides breakdown of damage dealt by different abilities used, similar to Recount in WoW. So if I'm reeeeealy interested in seeing why a particular player did so poorly dps wise, I could delve into that, but more often than not, if they are not direct friends of mine (who would be asking "why do I seem to not be doing that much damage?"), then I don't even bother looking at it past "wow this person did xyz shit dps".

[Wrecktangle]

Slow day at work

[Kazgrel]

That is not even close to true. Some classes have better ways to mitigate threat than others. A SMN, even a good one, will have their threat shared with their pet. Some classes will have access to quelling or threat dumps, and as a WAR, I can just not use Butcher's Block if I want to give my co-tank some breathing room so they don't have to lower their DPS with aggro combos.

The only thing that the threat indicator tells you is how close your threat is from the lead. Full stop.

This. Basing DPS on threat generated is a very inaccurate way to gauge DPS. Several classes have forms of threat dumps; ranged of all kinds have access to Quelling Strikes, DRG can do a barrel roll...er back flip and halve their enmity, NIN can hand some of theirs off to the tank, or if they really wanted to be assholes, any MNK present (only job I know of without a threat dump).

[The Casualty]

Monk needs an overhaul for many more reasons than just the threat issue, but I certainly hope they address it as well with the combat overhaul.

[Aruhen]

To be honest this game doesn't as many choices in how you play the game as say WoW does which is the reason why things like combat logs are so important in that game. Talent choices can drastically change how you play your classes and that's ignoring things like trinkets and tier sets which can do similar things.

FFXIV on the other hand from my personal experience the biggest difference between a good damage dealer and a bad one is proper cooldown usage. Knowing when to use it so you don't end up wasting half of it during a transition phase. Possibly saving it for an upcoming burst phase that needs to happen. Things like that.

I wouldn't mind some way to log combat information. Not a straight up damage meter because those things are completely useless by themselves. Maybe something akin to WoW logs. Something were you can see percentages of up time on dots and how often cooldowns are not on... cooldown. How many times you missed your positionals. Things like that. Not sure if I'd want it in game or outside but I think if they kept it outside then it would be useless to the people who really need it because they wouldn't bother going out of their way.

[Kazgrel]

To be honest this game doesn't as many choices in how you play the game as say WoW does which is the reason why things like combat logs are so important in that game. Talent choices can drastically change how you play your classes and that's ignoring things like trinkets and tier sets which can do similar things.

FFXIV on the other hand from my personal experience the biggest difference between a good damage dealer and a bad one is proper cooldown usage. Knowing when to use it so you don't end up wasting half of it during a transition phase. Possibly saving it for an upcoming burst phase that needs to happen. Things like that.

I wouldn't mind some way to log combat information. Not a straight up damage meter because those things are completely useless by themselves. Maybe something akin to WoW logs. Something were you can see percentages of up time on dots and how often cooldowns are not on... cooldown. How many times you missed your positionals. Things like that. Not sure if I'd want it in game or outside but I think if they kept it outside then it would be useless to the people who really need it because they wouldn't bother going out of their way.

There is FF Logs, but having not used it personally, I can't attest to whether or not you can get the breakdowns of things like positionals missed and such from there. From what I've gathered, it's basically there for people to post logs of their speed kill clears, but that's not to say the data can't be used to help people improve.

[Katchii]

[Snip]

That's exactly my point. I'm not claiming it to be necessary for everyone, I'm saying that it isn't bad for the game. It will help those who want to use the tool with no discernible negative outcome for those not interested.

I think you and I have very close opinions on this. I agree a feedback loop or some sort of communication and desire needs to be there and occur for people to get better. A meter and/ or parser easily fills that role and is a very easy to use and effective tool. I'm just saying it doesn't HAVE to be THE tool for the job, which is what it seems many people are trying to imply.

I'm not arguing against them being an effective and useful tool, I'm just saying a large portion of the population in the game doesn't need one to do the kind of content they'll do and improve and perform to the levels people like you are pushing for. Anecdotally, I've never used a meter in FFXIV, and when guildies parse with me in stuff I do with them I'm right where I'm expected to be as far as output based on my gear level, sometimes beating out people with higher gear levels on the same job. I don't know what my potential is, I just know I'm doing good enough and/ or better than I need to be for the content I'm running which is good enough for me and I'll bet it's good enough for a majority of the population. Obviously not a definitive argument or set of data, but IMO if I can do it without ever using a parse or meter to perform, I'm fairly sure a large portion of the population can do the same. A meter/ parser would make it easier, for sure, but that doesn't make it necessary.

[Melsiren]

So glad that a person on the internet thinks I don't really care. Amazing really. Hint, I refuse to use ACT and i do read class guides. But hey, since I don't do one of your points, I don't care at all right?

Seriously, this is why I am so against parsers like that, because of the community acting like that, "omg if you dont have it you dont care!"

Well, I just triggered some one.

calm down and let me clarify since you seem to have misunderstood me. If you do not do one of the following things: Run ACT (Knowing some one who runs ACT is just as good), or follow some sort of guide, then then you are not putting forth much effort. I mean of course you could seek a knowledgeable friend and ask for advice, I personally just threw that in with the guide category.

So under my definition, you.

Amazing really. Hint, I refuse to use ACT and i do read class guides.

I think you do care, so chill.

I don't run act, but know how to play the job. Friend was running ACT and he's confirmed a few times I've been top or near top DPS.... damn BLMs always tend to steal it. Them and their "I don't have to get out of range of my attacks to avoid stuff, lol, poor melee." And then I shake my fist at our BLM and threaten to lock him out of the FC house! *fist shake*

But we're not doing savage raiding either.

Until about level 54ish my friend was our ACT runner as well. I religiously asked him in discord if I was improving from the last run, perhaps I should further clarify my two points.

I just ask for effort from people.

[Granyala]

Is it considered harassment if I say in a PM to you that Faroth is a smelly night elf? He doesn't hear it or see it, and no feelings are hurt.

Well, he is a hunter that is constantly surrounded by wild animals...

No ofc it wouldn't be harassment, that only applies if the person is addressed directly.

- - - Updated - - -

ACT provides breakdown of damage dealt by different abilities used, similar to Recount in WoW. So if I'm reeeeealy interested in seeing why a particular player did so poorly dps wise, I could delve into that

The most difficult thing to address is item level. You basically need values for many item level points for every class, in order to be able to tell where your limits are.
For instance: when I do 1.3K (Cuchulainn) on my 240 BLM, is that good or bad? I have no data on that and in that case, a DPS meter, doesn't help that much. I can compare Enochian uptime and # of Fire IV casts to other mages in the raid but that's pretty much it. With Bosses skipping phases like crazy, pulling a random log from the Internet won't do me much good.

[Deleted]

I need a Damage Meter simply because I'm never 100% sure whether I'm hitcapped or not, since the game doesn't truely give you any info on that.
That alone would make it worth it for me.

Of course, they could also add a proper character screen that. That would be fine too. I just don't know how they could implement a character overview like that, because the rating you need depends on what content you do.

[8bithamster]

Well, I just triggered some one.

calm down and let me clarify since you seem to have misunderstood me. If you do not do one of the following things: Run ACT (Knowing some one who runs ACT is just as good), or follow some sort of guide, then then you are not putting forth much effort. I mean of course you could seek a knowledgeable friend and ask for advice, I personally just threw that in with the guide category.

So under my definition, you.

I think you do care, so chill.



Until about level 54ish my friend was our ACT runner as well. I religiously asked him in discord if I was improving from the last run, perhaps I should further clarify my two points.

I just ask for effort from people.

funny, so now it's or instead of And? O_o you jump between opinions rather fast. And I'm not triggered, just wanted to point out your rather elitist opinion with the And

[threads]

Monk needs an overhaul for many more reasons than just the threat issue, but I certainly hope they address it as well with the combat overhaul.

it's going to take quite a lot to make them viable in 4.0. especially when they will be competing directly with SAM for raid spot.