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  1. #1
    High Overlord Chevelle's Avatar
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    What makes you a decent Raid Leader / GuildMaster

    Hello there MMO-C,

    This is one of my first topics on here and this is something randomly coming to mind. So bare with me here.

    What do you think makes a good Raid Leader and/or Guild Master. I am asking this mainly for self improvement and can take constructive criticism quite well (At least that is what I believe.)

    Anyways I'll drop a list of the things I have and do and think are good. And I'll throw down some points which I think need a lot of improvement or need work.

    Pro's

    - As a GM I take time to listen to any guildie that comes up to me with any kind of issue. Guild related or not.
    - As a Raid Leader I try to show my raiders the respect they deserve and I try and get them to respect one and another as well.
    - As a Raid Leader I take my time to research the fights either on the internet or on PTR.
    - As a Raid Leader I WILL step up for someone if people are not showing any respect to one and another or ruining the experience on both progress and farm content. I sometimes have issues NOT shouting but most of the time I am fine. (It just pisses me off. )
    - As a Raid Leader I have no issue at all removing people from the raid who are disrespectfull to others.


    Con's

    - As a Raid Leader I sometimes have a hard time removing people from the Raid when they underperform. (I try to get them to do better instead .. sometimes at cost of the other people in there... at least that is the feeling I get.)
    - As a Guild Master I find it hard removing people from the guild who have been inactive (or demote) after giving a notice on the guild forums.

    What do YOU think a GM/RL should have?
    What do YOU think I do right/wrong?

    NOTE: I will edit this post whenever I think or find more Pro's or Con's .... its 3AM over here and I am not THAT bright at the moment.




    Chevelle founder and Guild Master of<Divide and Conquer> @ Frostmane EU
    Also please follow me on Twitter

  2. #2
    It seems to me you do things pretty well, and all I would want from a RL/GL.
    About your cons, of course depending on how hardcore you are, its not bad that you don't remove people straight away. Its always better to help people improve first, and if they come out better on the other end, you'll have a much more loyal raid force. Of course, if they keep standing in the same fires night after night, you don't have much choice, and will need to remove them.
    It will cost the time of the others, and if you're not a super hardcore guild, I'm sure its still the best option. You can always ask others doing the same role to give a helping hand if you don't know how yourself. Maybe install class/role leaders? People you trust and know to perform well.

    And don't be scared demoting. You even give a notice, which many don't. If someone comes back right after getting demoted, with some good reason for not being there for a month, you can always add them again. Plus side is that it will show the rest of the guild that you like to keep it tidy and managed.

  3. #3
    - As a Raid Leader I sometimes have a hard time removing people from the Raid when they underperform. (I try to get them to do better instead .. sometimes at cost of the other people in there... at least that is the feeling I get.)
    I struggle with this myself. Especially if it's someone who's been with you for a long time or since the beginning, you look at the meters fight after fight and they're just not competing and you really only have one option, but you give them another chance and another and yeah.

    It's hard to do but it's nescessary and if it leads to a competant replacement you won't regret it.

  4. #4
    High Overlord Chevelle's Avatar
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    @ Haqrboi
    I try and get the guild as competitive as possible without being REALLY hardcore. I think most of them by now have realized I prioritize their Real Life over their Raiding. However not showing up for let's say all raids does not really increase your chance on loot. Thats the only 'penalty' on it.

    I do ask others within the same role to help a person that is not performing the way they should. I get the raiders to help eachother in order to create some sort of good vibe in the raid where I try and get people more aquinted (However you spell that ) to eachother.

    And yes sometimes I do demote without a notice ... I even made a rank for people messing around in gchat which just all together mutes them when they are making a mess while we are raiding or so. Sometimes I do have the feeling I am too nice though. (Now we're getting to the officer/role leader part)

    I have officers positioned over the different roles. I handle the melee at the moment due to being a rogue. (Yes I try to do as much as possible on my own .... because if you want something done well you'd best do it yourself.) But I have a healing officer and ranged+tank officer among the ranks as well. However some of them even tell me somtimes "Omg , if that guy would have done that elsewhere it would have been in insta gkick" Things such as disrespect to either another member or crying about loot. (We use a loot council and try to be as fair with it as humanly possible.)



    @ Ceria
    It is indeed hard to do. The thing I do the most at that point is talk to the people that underperform. Talking solves so much more. But this is either not for long or not at all a fix. A good example is our mage. He's been with us since the start. And sometimes he starts being a pain in the ass to either me or the raid. It depends on the situation. And I think anyone else would have tossed him out. But I either shut him up with a lecture and carry on (and then it's all good for the rest of the evening) or I threaten with replacing him if he carries on. Although replacing people seems like the easy way out also because I know I have people capable of getting at least 6/7 HC going on. (We are sitting on 2/7 atm due to people taking breaks or having exams etc etc.)

    Thank you for your input so far , I would like for everyone to keep them coming let's make this a bit of a learning experience for everyone if we can.




    Chevelle founder and Guild Master of<Divide and Conquer> @ Frostmane EU
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  5. #5
    It depends what your guild goals are. If you're aiming for max progress, then you NEED to be able to remove people from the raid who underperform.

    That being said, if you're extremely approachable, friendly with everyone etc. then it's difficult to be "that raid leader" who kicks slackers, because it may be someone who you were shooting the shit with just a few hours earlier. I've noticed the best raid leaders are the ones who always seem a bit "distant", as in, they're friendly but you never feel like you're close enough to them that they wouldn't kick you if you were holding the guild back. For progress guilds, that is.

  6. #6
    High Overlord Chevelle's Avatar
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    Hello Cuboid,

    Thank you for posting and offering some help as well.

    Basicly I am not trying to be that friend to everyone. I do have 1-2 people which I am that friend too in the guild. Mainly because one of them is a real life friend and the other is an arena partner. But that doesn't make a huge difference for me.

    As for the actual goal of the guild. What I want that goal to be and what I set the goal too is competing in Heroic content with a not fully hardcore mentality. We raid 4 nights a week if we must. And just push as much progress as possible. Firelands for example , we were the (I might be off here) Top 30 on the realm for killing ragnaros normal. Which I think is decent since we have not been around for years but merely months now.

    I am capable of removing people from the raid , BUT I do think the role officers are to judge on this as well .... and if we do decide (if the officers even notice it .... ) to remove the person , it is sometimes rather hard to get a back-up guildie in there. Since we usually have only 10-11 online these days. The last 3 (I have a roster of 14 raiders.) are /afk for exams at this moment.




    Chevelle founder and Guild Master of<Divide and Conquer> @ Frostmane EU
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Chevelle View Post
    Hello Cuboid,

    Thank you for posting and offering some help as well.

    Basicly I am not trying to be that friend to everyone. I do have 1-2 people which I am that friend too in the guild. Mainly because one of them is a real life friend and the other is an arena partner. But that doesn't make a huge difference for me.

    As for the actual goal of the guild. What I want that goal to be and what I set the goal too is competing in Heroic content with a not fully hardcore mentality. We raid 4 nights a week if we must. And just push as much progress as possible. Firelands for example , we were the (I might be off here) Top 30 on the realm for killing ragnaros normal. Which I think is decent since we have not been around for years but merely months now.

    I am capable of removing people from the raid , BUT I do think the role officers are to judge on this as well .... and if we do decide (if the officers even notice it .... ) to remove the person , it is sometimes rather hard to get a back-up guildie in there. Since we usually have only 10-11 online these days. The last 3 (I have a roster of 14 raiders.) are /afk for exams at this moment.
    Replacing poor performing players is better than keeping them and then having your good players leave.

    Also, make a set of rules such as:

    1. If you fall below 90%+ attendance, you're benched.
    2. If your performance falls below expectations, you have 1 week to remedy it, or else you will be replaced.

    That way, it wont be you removing them from the raid, they will be benching themselves. People can get butthurt at an actual person doing the kicking/benching, but they'll have a hell of a harder time holding a grudge at a set of rules that they know they broke.

    (coming from a fellow GM that goes through this type of nonsense weekly over the course of 2 years)
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  8. #8
    High Overlord Chevelle's Avatar
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    Hello glo,

    I would like to discuss further on what you just posted. Basicly what I am thinking is the rule thing is nice, however ... would it suit my guild for what it is since we are not totally hardcore? The attendance rule I am not very sure on , basicly what I do if someone is let's say late for the raid I will have them sit out on about the first half of that raid depending on if they informed us via the forums or not.

    The performance rule seems good though ... but this seems like a hardcore thing to me ....

    If this is working for your guild , what kind of guild is it? Hardcore? Casual? Anything else?

    Thank you for your input,

    Regards,
    Chev.




    Chevelle founder and Guild Master of<Divide and Conquer> @ Frostmane EU
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  9. #9
    Promote good performance
    Make baddies wanna kill themselves.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Chevelle View Post
    Hello glo,

    I would like to discuss further on what you just posted. Basicly what I am thinking is the rule thing is nice, however ... would it suit my guild for what it is since we are not totally hardcore? The attendance rule I am not very sure on , basicly what I do if someone is let's say late for the raid I will have them sit out on about the first half of that raid depending on if they informed us via the forums or not.

    The performance rule seems good though ... but this seems like a hardcore thing to me ....

    If this is working for your guild , what kind of guild is it? Hardcore? Casual? Anything else?

    Thank you for your input,

    Regards,
    Chev.
    We're a semi-casual guild that raid 3 times a week for 2.5 hours each day. We're 6/7HM with the achievement drakes-

    THAT SAID, we wouldn't be anywhere close to where we are now without strict guidelines for attendance and performance. In my opinion, if you're going to go casual, you need to remember that the only way to succeed at doing so is making your raid times the only casual part of the "casual" label.

    I'll break down the questions you asked below.

    1. Members making raids 90%+ of the time is crucial. Sure, you might think it's OK to let people slide since you're casual, but you absolutely need to keep the other 9 people in mind that are wasting their time showing up on time and scheduling their real life around raid times. It's not fair to them to waste IRL time due to other's simply not showing up for one reason or another. You'll eventually have your reliable raiders lose morale and have more tension between your group due to pent up hostility not only against the raiders with attendance issues, but also against you for allowing it to happen in the first place.

    2. Apply everything above regarding performance. It's the same deal. Casual or not, the goal of having a raiding guild is to kill bosses. 99% of the time people who aren't performing up to par can fix the problem simply by spending a little time researching their class (stats, rotations, etc). If they use the excuse that your guild is casual, doesn't apply since the source of the poor performance is essentially laziness. All it takes is a few minutes after each patch or class change to get a decent grip on what you should and shouldn't be doing with your class.

    Again, the best advice I can give you is to make a set-in-stone list of simple rules. If they can't follow them, you're not the enemy, their own laziness is. They'll curse the rules, not you. :P

    Keeping casual raid times can be a great thing, as long as your members are willing to put in the effort and not try to just skate through everything half assed. Replacing members can be hard, but you'll quickly see the morale increase among your good raiders when you bring in a replacement that blows the under performing raider away.

    Good luck!
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  11. #11
    10 commandments of being a guild / raid leader

    1. Rule the guild with an iron fist.
    2. Make sure your best raiders are noted regularly.
    3. Make it a note to call people out over vent in-front of the entire raid.
    4. Require a 90% attendance and benefits if you can make 100% attendance.
    5. Be the raids / guilds friend. Get to know everybody.
    7. Don't be afraid to yell at people.
    8. Teach your guild not to be attached to loot. Make sure that your raiders are friends with each other and are willing to make sacrifices for their fellow raiders.
    9. If you have to remove somebody for being disrespectful make sure that if the situation comes down to a good player being an ass to a bad player, keep the good player kick the bad player.
    10. If progress is not happening, find the problem, and remove it.

    Looks bad on paper, but has been my raid philosophy since 2.0 and works very nicely.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Corjha View Post
    10 commandments of being a guild / raid leader

    1. Rule the guild with an iron fist.
    2. Make sure your best raiders are noted regularly.
    3. Make it a note to call people out over vent in-front of the entire raid.
    4. Require a 90% attendance and benefits if you can make 100% attendance.
    5. Be the raids / guilds friend. Get to know everybody.
    7. Don't be afraid to yell at people.
    8. Teach your guild not to be attached to loot. Make sure that your raiders are friends with each other and are willing to make sacrifices for their fellow raiders.
    9. If you have to remove somebody for being disrespectful make sure that if the situation comes down to a good player being an ass to a bad player, keep the good player kick the bad player.
    10. If progress is not happening, find the problem, and remove it.

    Looks bad on paper, but has been my raid philosophy since 2.0 and works very nicely.
    I must say, most of these guidelines are correct except number 9. If somebody is a bitch, no matter how good he is, he is going off.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Farkface View Post
    I must say, most of these guidelines are correct except number 9. If somebody is a bitch, no matter how good he is, he is going off.
    One must earn the protective barrier

  14. #14
    High Overlord Chevelle's Avatar
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    @ glo

    I am definately going to be looking into being more strict on these rules. This sounds like something which could be very helpfull. Which brings another question to mind though. Whats the easiest way for me to track the attendance? I have tried just noting the names somewhere on my laptop ... but this became a pain in the ass and I quickly gave up on that.

    I definately want to be more on the hardcore side of raiding then the casual side. I am just struggling with arranging all since this is also the first time I have created my own guild. So far I have only been in the officer role. I would definately like to have a chat with you personally about all this when I have some spare time ... I am currently dealing with computer issues and in the works of running back-ups. But I'll drop you a PM with our ventrilo info or something like that if you are interested.

    @ Corjha
    I have to agree with Farkface on this one. Most of the guidelines seem quite good. Although I would not remove the good player over the bad player. Even if the player is bad. He still deserves to be respected and treated as any other person. There should not be harrassment inside a guild environment and the harassment should be punished in my opinion.

    ------------------------------
    So far I'd like to thank you all for your input this has greatly been helping me. But let's get some more Do's and Dont
    s in here for people that might seek help with the same issue.




    Chevelle founder and Guild Master of<Divide and Conquer> @ Frostmane EU
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  15. #15
    You've made a good general guideline list, but consider further how each of these points works in practice. On any given night how do you "show your raiders the respect they deserve and get them to respect one and another as well"? I'm not at all saying you're wrong, but remember that it needs to be a practical interaction rather than a grand theoretical mission plan.

    I think one of the best things you can do for a raid is to encourage all the members of it to have a sense of ownership.

    You never ever want raiders thinking "Well I was fine on that wipe, it was the other guy(s) who screwed it up for us" - it's human nature, and it's easy to do, but you get better results out of encouraging a "well if I'd just done X at that time, we wouldn't have had Y happen - next time I'll be ready for it".

    Encourage a work-hard-play-hard style mentality. My group used to be very slack, and we've still got room for improvement, but implementing approaches where I *never* did a ready check prior to pulls (I announced it clearly on vent and did a 5 count in for the pre-potting, but no ready check - people are here to raid so obviously they're always focused and ready, right?) and where I tried to impliment a "no more than 5 minutes out-of-combat" policy. It hasn't ended up being that rigid, but just getting everyone on board with that focused mentality has meant that we no longer have the 5 minute run+buffup time wasters (plus I get to make jokes about tubby taurens always being last away from the fish feast )

    At the same time we brought in a 5 minute break on the hour every hour to let everyone pee/drink/smoke/refocus, timed via DBM and replacing anyone who was afk'd unannounced or excessively late back. People sign up to raid cos they want to raid, and when you remind them of that & remind them that it's why we are all doing this, most raiders enjoy the srs bsns "we are quick, we are good, we are the [guild] team and we kick ass" style focus.

    Understand what can be dealt with inside raid time without breaking flow, and what should be dealt with outside raid time. Put your foot down gently but firmly, explaining why so that people accept & agree rather than feeling shut down & sidelined. And if you say you'll deal with something after raid, really deal with it.. don't put it off or then you are shutting them down & sidelining them.

    Question your raiders about how you're doing your job and about how they're doing their job - in that order. Start by getting their perspective and make it a two way street. This way you can find out how you could improve (both as a raid leader and as an individual player), you can find out what they think they can/should do to improve, and you can present any thoughts/issues you've got with their performance without coming in hard and immediately putting them into defensive denial. Plus some of the improvements+ideas an extra 9 or 24 minds can come up with are really great.. wasting all those abilities+perspectives would be pretty insane.

    Always be aware of who's eating unnecessary damage & how people are dying - recount death records, comparebot and world of logs are your friends. DPS tends to take care of yourself, but it's always good to encourage a little friendly competition - be aware of people's successes on the dps meters, acknowledge them and plot with them about how they can do it again. Friendly one-upsmanship is a great spur for deeps, and with the % of ranking results on WoL it can mean that even classes that aren't performing atm get their chance to epeen if they do well ("ok, i'm not an arcane mage, but I did better than 95% of other enhance shaman on that kill - beat that mr 140k arcane blast"). Appoint a good heal team leader to fulfil a similar role for the healers with awareness of who's healing what targets, whether those targets are staying alive & whether that healer is surviving/dodging the mechanics (or vice versa if you're the one organising the healers).

    Oh, and unlike this post - try to provide yourself and others with structure. Be transparent so people can see & agree, be flexible, but provide a clear framework within which people can focus and excel.

    Anyway, that's all I can think of to ramble about at present - it's 3am here too btw

    Oh, and having an accent helps for those moments when you need to tell everyone to shut the f* up & snap their attention back on track. I like a community raid where everyone has ownership, but there needs to be a moderator to keep the community focused + rolling.

    Last edited by lakhesis; 2011-11-03 at 05:01 PM.

  16. #16
    Sure, go ahead.

    Here's the essential addons I use for raid leading:

    Headcount - makes tracking attendance super easy

    BigBrother - shows who has flasks, food buffs, and raid buffs. Also shows who is misdirecting/tricksing/cc'ing/breaking cc/etc

    EnsidiaFails - Shows in detail who is taking avoidable damage or failing to certain mechanics (set it to auto post the results after each wipe in raid chat, that way it will motivate the people failing to do better since everyone will know who exactly is causing problems)

    WebDKP/EPGP - Makes tracking your loot distribution a buttload easier than using spreadsheets / pen and paper.

    There's a million tips that you can get to lead a successful guild, but it really just comes down to a learning experience (it's gonna take some time :P). Stick with your gut and do what you think is best for everyone, not just a single individual. Always keep an open mind and always make yourself available for questions and concerns, and seek input from your fellow raiders.
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  17. #17
    You need to be able to identify weakness in the raid group, and more importantly, you need to be able to help the source of that weakness to over come it, and most importantly if you cannot help that weakness be overcome, you need to remove it.

    IMO, that's what makes an excellent raid leader.

  18. #18
    High Overlord Chevelle's Avatar
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    @ Lakhesis
    The showing respect to the raiders happens in several ways. I do point them out on what they are doing wrong for instance ( I do this on ventrilo with everyone in the channel ) But I don't tell him "OMG YOU SUCK THATS SOO EASY!" I offer him another way of doing it and try to help him improve instead of treating him like sh!t.

    Getting them to show eachother respect etc. Is what I do whenever I have to pull off a speech when people are slacking off too much or not serious enough in my opinion. I tend to hold these "motivational" speeches for the group. Reminding them that we are in this as a team (whenever they are pointing fingers at eachother) and that you do not get this down as a team by blaming one and another. You need to respect eachother and assist eachother instead of take the attitude "I didn't fail on that and he did, omg hes bad."

    I think the break idea you have there is pretty good. At this moment we call a break halfway through the raid (after 2 hrs.) unless we are ofcourse wiping on something silly .. I'll push them to keep going at that point for another 15 minutes at least. But we have one 15 minute break. Maybe several smaller breaks might work , I'll definately take this into consideration because it sounds like something that could be nice. (Even for me as a heavy smoker )

    Dealing with issues in the raid is something I generally do in wispers if it can not wait. I dont want to hold the raid up. If it is something that can wait I ask the person to hold it till after the raid and then invite me for a chat afterwards to try and deal with the issue.

    I haven't tried asking my raiders about my performance etc. I did however ask the officers every now and then. Again this is something I could/should start doing. I'll give it some thought at least. I do however analyze their play as much as I can while still doing my own task in the raid. And try to tell them about what I saw and what I think should be done different. I start off by suggesting it. If people do not take the suggestion and keep failing I'll basicly force them to do it a different way.


    @glo
    My add-on arsenal is about the same as yours, except for Headcount. I will definately try this out and add it to my arsenal if it is really that easy.

    @Judge Malthred
    I think identifying the weak link in a raid environment is not very hard. (Not in my 10man group.) and whenever it is I just find what happened in the logs I have up and running. Then I resume trying to fix the issue. I'll be patient with the player for quite a few wipes if I at least notice he is trying his best. But if it does not work and I do have a replacement ready. I will throw that one in there. And I do think every raid leader should do this. Do not replace your raiders so quickly ... treat them as humans and do give them the chance to improve.




    Chevelle founder and Guild Master of<Divide and Conquer> @ Frostmane EU
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  19. #19
    Hi there. From a non-RL, merely raider, PoV, the best advice i can give you, based from experience:

    Be consistent on your decisions.

    Want an example? Moron RL (tank) wipes the raid 6/7 times on boss A. Hehe, it´s all good, pat on the back. Raider dies couple of times on boss B, gets removed from raid without a single explanation (this was me). And without any history of dying repeatedely, or anything. Was actually good for me, since I took a prolonged break (hate playing with morons) from wow, just recently came back.

    So yeah, CONSISTENCY.

  20. #20
    What the guy above said, some guilds will work brilliantly run like a dictatorship with 1 guy calling the shots and kicking those who don't agree. Some guilds work brilliantly with a really nice guy beign everyones friend and trying to do everything for everyone, and the whole myriad of possibilities in between, but the single most important thing for me, is you treat everyone the same, whether you like them or hate them, a good guild/raid leader is fair.

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