Is Unholy actually bad?

[Rakketz]

Those nooby frost dk's, (and we know how many of those there are..) are going to tell you unholy sucks because unholy is not the spec to just spam 3 buttons. You can get high dps with it if you play it right..while frost is better burst. As for PvP, its great in arena if you have a ranged dps like a hunter or mage. You can slow down nearly any class and keep them off your partner, while they kite and burst them down. You do give up some useful CD's, (Pillar of Frost, etc..) but make up for it in amazing peels and pressure.

[Beefkow]

Unholy dks in general still need a little fixing, for example:

- Scourge Strike 1 entire attack instead of 2 separate attacks
- Gargoyle 2 min cd instead of 3 min, dks don't use it very often and can be cced very easily
- Unholy Frenzy 2min cd instead of 3 min, its a nice cc breaker but plz give unholy dks some specialty
- Nerf plague strike (i want wotlk back!!!)
- Buff scourge strike, (i want the big crits like in wotlk it seriously shouldn't take 100 scourge strikes to kill some1...)
- In fact, take away the Dark Transformation and convert it into the DKs dmg itself( i mean the pet is a little addition and it shouldn't meet up to the dks dmg), or they can make the pet an instant abomination once hitting 5 stacks
- Buff blood strike, or just remove it
- Bring back the better IBF, i think it was 40% reduce dmg in woltk? i don't recall, and it should be 3min back to 2min..(that's like our only survival cd basically)
- Buff festering strike to compensate with Obliterate

Last but not least:

-MAKE SS VERY USABLE AGAINST PLATE ARMOR!!(i mean no wonder unholy dks aren't a threat to warriors, dks, and pallys)

[Deleted]

As I don't believe the OP is talking about PvP, very few of those points matter. Certainly making SS scale a little better with weapon damage would help against Frost scaling, but seeing as we're getting buffed in the last tier of an expansion, I imagine things like that would be handled in 5.0.

[Deleted]

Just because you are doing better then a DW Frost DK when you are Unholy does that mean the spec is better or worse.

Skill is a huge factor in game play. You are better off to know your spec, and execute it properly, then it is to be gemmed/enchanted/reforged at all.

Chances are, if you are doing 25k in unholy, you will be able to do 28-30k in frost (assuming you adapt to frost the same way you do unholy).

Right now, numbers are numbers.. and DW Frost > Unholy

If you talk about numbers, did you actually looked at simcraft?
Right now Unholy > Frost by a bit... simulationcraft.org/422/Raid_T12H.html

[Deleted]

Yeah with 4.3 changes. (5% more str. Pet scales with crit and haste?)

They did not change frost yet. Just wait...

And i must say, i do not like Unholy. I never did, even in wrath.

DW is just badass and i hope they will be on same level so i can keep playing frost.

[Frozendekay]

If you talk about numbers, did you actually looked at simcraft?
Right now Unholy > Frost by a bit... simulationcraft.org/422/Raid_T12H.html

Not accurate, and for actual fights the outcomes are far, far different.

DW frost > unholy in a raid setting. By quite a bit.

In 4.3 I'll still be frost because otherwise we would lose a substantial raid buff. Specific fights also seem to really favour frost from what I've seen (spine requires burst on tendons, Yor'sajh slimes with pillar for almost every one, burst on mana void, etc etc). I do like unholy though, I hope sometime I can get heroic sulfuras and just try it out for a week or two.

[hasslehoof]

unholy isn't bad. most fights in firelands just don't suit the way unholy is. Target switching, pet despawning, movement, heavy aoe etc.

[Deleted]

OP: the short answer is "hell no".


unfortunately, because frost is fairly faceroll and much easier to manage CD wise than unholy, people will generally go towards it. also, frost does have stronger burst and faceroll aoe, whereas unholy you need to time your super ghoul, DnD cd, and pestil/bb to do good aoe.

its a tossup, of my 178 days of /played, ive spent probably 165 of those as unholy, and although i have double heroic trash cleavers, i still do higher dmg on average on say a fight like baleroc as unholy.

all in all, its a personal preference, they are both good specs and both have their uses, unholy is a LOT more about cd timing because you have a super ghoul/gargoyle that you have to time your other cd's with (ie trinkets, pots, etc), so its a bit trickier of a spec to play and do well at in raids with. the itemization is fairly identical, with the only difference being that unholy doesnt require the exp cap that frost does (but still getting around 20-21 exp is good). stacking haste, with a secondary thought on mastery is the way you'd want to go.

I'm not quite sure I understand, did you just say "short answer: hell no" and then "long answer: up to you"?

I don't care about having a "faceroll" spec, for single-target or AoE (nor do I believe there is such a spec, not even Arcane (I don't even believe that's the easiest for DPS, but that's beside the point)), and I'm able to play both specs to at least close to their full potential.
Thanks for the guidelines, but simple things such as rotations and gearing values is something I can find on sites such as ElitistJerks. What I need is personal opinions on whether or not the Unholy way is viable to a point where playing it as your mainspec doesn't get you punched in the face for being an idiot.

And i must say, i do not like Unholy. I never did, even in wrath.

*Even* in Wrath? Unholy was terrible in Wrath! It was awful and slow and boring, way too much of the damage you did was passive. I played Frost DW almost exclusively in Wrath (even as tank where I was allowed to (5 mans), I was still my funky Blood/Frost hybrid spec for raiding), but I think Unholy is more fun now.

Unholy dks in general still need a little fixing, for example:

- Scourge Strike 1 entire attack instead of 2 separate attacks
- Gargoyle 2 min cd instead of 3 min, dks don't use it very often and can be cced very easily
- Unholy Frenzy 2min cd instead of 3 min, its a nice cc breaker but plz give unholy dks some specialty
- Nerf plague strike (i want wotlk back!!!)
- Buff scourge strike, (i want the big crits like in wotlk it seriously shouldn't take 100 scourge strikes to kill some1...)
- In fact, take away the Dark Transformation and convert it into the DKs dmg itself( i mean the pet is a little addition and it shouldn't meet up to the dks dmg), or they can make the pet an instant abomination once hitting 5 stacks
- Buff blood strike, or just remove it
- Bring back the better IBF, i think it was 40% reduce dmg in woltk? i don't recall, and it should be 3min back to 2min..(that's like our only survival cd basically)
- Buff festering strike to compensate with Obliterate

Last but not least:

-MAKE SS VERY USABLE AGAINST PLATE ARMOR!!(i mean no wonder unholy dks aren't a threat to warriors, dks, and pallys)

So basically what you're saying is you want DKs to be ridiculously overpowered? You have to offer more nerfs than "nerf plague strike" to compensate for all of those fairly massive buffs.

[Deleted]

*Even* in Wrath? Unholy was terrible in Wrath! It was awful and slow and boring, way too much of the damage you did was passive. I played Frost DW almost exclusively in Wrath (even as tank where I was allowed to (5 mans), I was still my funky Blood/Frost hybrid spec for raiding), but I think Unholy is more fun now.

Well the thing is. i don't like that my ghoul almost same amount of dps does (as example)

Unholy dk, should be the bringer of disease. It should play more around dots and not about ur pet.

I want a melee Warlock :/


And yes Uh is stronger in hc gear.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/422/Raid_T12H.html

But since you have to switch always targets and don't stand still, or need sometimes huge amount of burst (ragnaros) Or some great aoe (Ragnaros, ryolith/beth)

It performs better, you also get most melee usefull buffs 4% dmg 10% haste wish are in 10m superior.

[Kronik85]

4.3 looks like it puts the Frost and Unholy relatively on par, UH will perform better on a stand and nuke such as Mor'chok, Ultraxion and General Zon'ozz, whilst Frost will perform better on the fights with quick target swaps like Yor'sahj, Hagara (apparantly the Ghoul is abit too vulnerable during the movement phase), Warlord Blackhorn (lots of target swapping before he comes down I would imagine) and possibly the Spine of Deathwing (lots of adds but you ignore em for the most part, but burst looks important) and The Madness of Deathwing (HB on Regenerative Blood etc + Ghoul is likely to need resummoning every platform swap). In BiS gear it's probably likely that you will want to play Unholy though, not having access to a top tier weapon for DW Frost aside from the tanking sword is abit of a pain.

Don't let people tell you that Unholy is infinitely more complex than Frost, it really isn't. All you have to do is keep an eye on Dark Transformations run time and when it gets to about >10 seconds left start pooling RP for DC spam so you get DT back up ASAP and time Gargoyle with your procs or Blood Lust, in all likley hood you can use it 2-3 times in a fight so time it right. Spamming FeS, SS and DC is no harder than spamming Ob and FS, both specs have there nuances and take a little bit of adjustment.

It's a shame that both sets of gear require different reforges (UH doesn't need to be Expertise capped and Crit>Mastery) otherwise I would just run both and swap depending on the fight.

[Deleted]

So I recently respecced to Unholy on my alt DK in order to try it out (I've always been madly in love with Runic Corruption, so I had to give it another chance) from being bored with Frost (DW) and I noticed my DPS is actually slightly higher, in a single-target situation.

My question is, is Unholy really as bad as people say it is? I may have only met retards who claim it is still bad, so "people" might not actually say that.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Nerotix/simple here's my armory; I do about 20k DPS on a dummy (level 85) selfbuffed. It doesn't seem bad to me, does Unholy become terrible in raids for some reason?

Edit: I know some of my gear is really weird (tanking cloak, PvP items) but that's because I haven't gotten my hands on any better alternatives since I started playing him again. He had a bunch of 346 blues, and with the incredible worth of Strength for Unholy, even some tank items were better.

hello m8 i noticed on your amory link that your not hit and expertise capped

my advise is download reforge light and get the most out of itby letting the program get you hit and exp cap and max haste froged that is possible with your gear

then look up how you have todo your rotation alot of videos are out there that show you how

well i hope you found these info usefull and good luck

[Darsithis]

hello m8 i noticed on your amory link that your not hit and expertise capped

my advise is download reforge light and get the most out of itby letting the program get you hit and exp cap and max haste froged that is possible with your gear

then look up how you have todo your rotation alot of videos are out there that show you how

well i hope you found these info usefull and good luck

Unholy DK's do not need to be expertise capped.

[Shiira]

Telling someone to cap expertise as unholy is not good advice.

[Deleted]

i think that this is perfectly fine "post", it is showing beefkow's personal preference for his lack of dillegence within the pve scene, and he gives his constructive criticism in which he states that the OP's character needs more buffs to strenghen his/her character.

i think it is a disgrace that he got infracted for stating his honest opinion.

anyway minor grievances aside, i think that you should set some time aside to boost up your gear, and from what i know unholy maybe isnt the best spec in raids, but unholy in pvp is really good with necrotic strike buffs.

but ultimatly by seeing your character i agree with Beefkow, that you do need more buffs Good Luck

Infracted. Discussing moderator actions in a thread is forbidden

He never said the player needs more buffs. He said the spec needs more buffs. Way to go there champ.

As has been said, try it out and see how much you like it in a raid setting. I'm all for playing whatever spec I want.

[Falter1985]

RNG is actually pretty awful for me and I've only managed to get 1 cleaver, so I play UH for our raids. Whats funny is the other DK who has both cleavers (upped to heroic) and the upgraded trinket sometimes has trouble keeping up with me. UH doesn't have the burst AoE that frost does for things like H Rag, but it does have very consistent AoE for fights like Domo. Also UH's survivability is MUCH better on a fight like Baleroc. If I needed to, I could come close to solo'ing a shard.

People will tell you frost is far and away the best, but its not always true. Frost has been top dps for most of this expansion and I think very few people have played UH as much as they have frost (ever since the UH dual-wield nerf).

Personally I prefer UH. The flow just feels right and I don't feel like I'm always waiting for a proc to do my job (theres a reason I'm respecing my pally away from ret as well).

[Drunknlulaby]

In response to your main question at hand: Yes it is. (BUT, only if you play it badly.) No one spec or class is bad. They all take a lot of tweaking to tune up, and all have their place in the game. However, right now and even in the next patch; Unholy will still be a tad behind Frost DW. But, only a wee bit, and that is situation based only. I have seen the simulators, but they are just that...Simulators. They don't provide real time data at all.

But honestly, does it matter that much? Do you enjoy playing unholy? It sounds like it. (Personally I am not a huge fan, but this isn't about me.)
Also, in my book, DPS is DPS. As long as you put up more than the tank, I think you are doing it right. (It's not about being the best all the time, it's about having fun right!?!)

I look forward to seeing what Unholy will be like in the next patch. I don't play it, but one of my friends has stuck with it through thick and thin.

[Deleted]

Thanks for all of the replies, many have been quite helpful.

I know I'm not hitcapped; I'm still getting gear for JP and I just haven't gotten around to reforging to hit yet. I know you're not supposed to get Expertise capped, as it's the second worst/worst stat for a Unholy DK.

I.. don't have any more questions, I'm going to stick to Unholy as my mainspec, because of the buffs coming in 4.3, along with the fact that I'm not currently progress raiding. Thanks again for the replies.

[MeleeSpriestDK]

Unholy is COMPLEATLY viable as dps. DW frost is SLIGHTLY and i mean slightly ahead but it is also faceroll so anyone can do it easily. Personally I roll unholy. I frequently beat frost dks just because I know how to play unholy very well and you get the ghoul plus it has quite a bit more survivability. Fights like beth tho frost can take the lead because i usually have to go up and the ghoul takes a bit to get up n what not. As for Ragnaros Heroic frost is no better even at that fight- Unholy gives you more uptime on the boss, more aoe. However frost might be ahead just because of the extra dmg sub 35% for heroic. SO its pretty much your playstyle as far as i have seen via real numbers in raids. Unholy is harder to get the max dps out of it imo but thats why i like it.

[Gicks]

Unholy and Frost as of right now are both really low dps specs. Unholy is very competitive with frost on single target fights. It does not really matter which one you play on a single target fight unless your raid needs IT. But for heavy AOE frost just destroys unholy hints rag.

[Brince]

Unholy is COMPLEATLY viable as dps. DW frost is SLIGHTLY and i mean slightly ahead but it is also faceroll so anyone can do it easily. Personally I roll unholy. I frequently beat frost dks just because I know how to play unholy very well and you get the ghoul plus it has quite a bit more survivability. Fights like beth tho frost can take the lead because i usually have to go up and the ghoul takes a bit to get up n what not. As for Ragnaros Heroic frost is no better even at that fight- Unholy gives you more uptime on the boss, more aoe. However frost might be ahead just because of the extra dmg sub 35% for heroic. SO its pretty much your playstyle as far as i have seen via real numbers in raids. Unholy is harder to get the max dps out of it imo but thats why i like it.

Sadly the problem is not the overall dps, but how you deal it. Frost has better burst and superior target switching. Like they said before FL encounters favor frost and judging from the previews of 4.3 it'll be the same.
Unholy up to now have major issues (scaling really bad with gear and no raid utility + less burst and target switching), till they fix those problems frost will be superior.
And that's a pity, i don't like frost