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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by razorback07 View Post
    Im totally in favour of the item level squash, aslong as its done RIGHT. Its a lot of work for blizzard to do this but i do believe it would work.

    One thing im curious about, how would this work for people such as myself that strive on hitting mitigation cap?
    It shouldn't matter in the slightest.

    What they're essentially talking about is changing the game so that there (Current Expansion) and then there's (Everything Else).

  2. #182
    They could do the squish thing and then just make it so if you enter older content that was designed for 10+ levers lower then your current amount, it will buff you for 30, 40 or 50 whatever is needed %... they can motivate this with "the enemy cowers in fear by your mere presence...", call the buff "overpowering" or something dunno

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I was expecting a post like this. In fact, i was expecting it at the end of WotLK, since it was clear that stats, hp, damage and numbers in general were goin up wild. Every expansion should be a reset of gear, since we get new content, new items, and so on. Big nerfbat on old content should be a decent solution, since the problem is confined on how steep is the growth. Anyway this brings on the table lots of problems, let's see what they have in mind.
    This was unavoidable with Blizzard's the insistence of "gear resets" every content patch, to much emphasis the be placed on the gear and less on the content/design. I would have liked to seen "gear overlap" vs "gear reset" this desire for the developers to force people to upgrade is misguided at best and completely wrong/destructive at worse.

    Gear overlap is were the top level gear from the previous tier is slight better then the normal level gear from the current tier within expansions and the Top level tier of the Previous expansion is still viable as entry level gear in the current expansion. Gear overlap would allow players catch up by buying previous tier armor from Badge vendors while not forcing anyone to upgrade merely based on iLevel and controlling the explosion of stats.

    Example... (iLevel are NOT Accurate for current game content, this is an example)
    - Entry Gear: iLevel 55-60
    --- Tier 1 (N) : iLevel 65
    --- Tier 1 (H) : iLevel 72
    --- Tier 2 (N) : iLevel 70
    --- Tier 2 (H) : iLevel 77
    --- Tier 3 (N) : iLevel 75
    --- Tier 3 (H) : iLevel 82
    Burning Crusade:
    - Entry Gear: iLevel 80-85
    --- Tier 1 (N) : iLevel 90
    --- Tier 1 (H) : iLevel 97
    --- Tier 2 (N) : iLevel 95
    --- Tier 2 (H) : iLevel 102
    --- Tier 3 (N) : iLevel 100
    --- Tier 3 (H) : iLevel 107
    - Entry Gear: iLevel 105-110
    --- Tier 1 (N) : iLevel 115
    --- Tier 1 (H) : iLevel 122
    --- Tier 2 (N) : iLevel 120
    --- Tier 2 (H) : iLevel 127
    --- Tier 3 (N) : iLevel 125
    --- Tier 3 (H) : iLevel 132
    .... Cont....
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlor
    Deleted half the thread and gave someone a well deserved ban.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, this forum is NOT grammar school, this forum IS a gaming community. We ask everyone to post in their best-as-possible English.

    We do NOT want to see people getting bashed for poor English writing skills. I read the OP's post and I understood him perfectly fine if I put some effort into it. If you are unwilling to put effort into reading a post, please don't put effort in writing your unwanted opinion about it's grammar/spelling/choice of words.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Prothall View Post
    But you'd still be doing the same amount of damage - the article says that. It would only be the numbers you're seeing that have changed. If I'm reading it right.

    This part here:
    The issue for "old content" is not the players as they level, it is the players that are at max level and hitting old content. Take a look at level 60 on the chart. The gear really isn't changing at that level. Thus in Molten Core the loot that drops there and the tuning of the bosses will not change one bit. BWL/AQ might get slight tweaks but not much if any. So a level 60 today would see zero change as there is nothing to change.

    However as a level 85, I would see a change in my run through that instance. My gear is easily going to drop 200 ilvls. So yeah I'll have less health and do less damage. So therefore, the difficulty of Molten Core is going to increase. Will it be tough? Not likely. But I might not be able to solo it like I could today.

    This is something that will happen up the chain. TBC bosses will start seeing nerfs to their health, but a Cata player is going to get nerfed significantly more than those bosses were so therefore they would be harder than they are today. Things should feel more inline with Wrath content, but I would argue it will still be slightly more difficult. The Cata content should have the same degree of difficulty.

    In any case I am in favor of the shrinking thing. Do it every patch before each expansion to keep the silly inflation in line.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhey View Post
    We healers start ever expansion bearing the brunt of a new nerf just to make the game funny for the DPS/Tanks, and Blizzard never gave a s*it about our feelings, getting blamed/kicked/insulted/harassed. Those are real nerf, not just "a feeling". Nerf for real the dps/tanks at the begin of the next expansion, Welcome to the Club !
    Do you really think tanks care what spells they are healed with? The healing changes was for healers, no one else. You know why? Because healing was completely and utterly broken. You had to heal with 1 spell, and you had to have paladins heal with that spell, else you could not succeed. It forced weird gameplay, weird gearing and anything that counted was throughput, throughput, throughput. Yes, it affected tanks, but only because the healing mechanics was so broken, that it made tank itemization useless. Avoidance might as well not have existed in WotLK.
    Last edited by Shamgar; 2011-11-04 at 05:14 PM.

  6. #186
    The Patient elmachino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Bålsta, Sweden
    i can see the trade chat being spammed with "WHY IS ME HEALT SO LOWWW =!!=!1!?!1" if they squish it

  7. #187

  8. #188
    Legendary! Rorcanna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Umeå, Sweden
    And so it comes..the final nail in the coffin for my WoW gaming. I was looking forward to having insane amounts of HP in MoP compared to older content, and doing crazy damage compared to other content...with squishing and whatnot, they're basically gonna put us back at level 80 again with 30k being a lot of health and 7k being a rather mighty crit?I don't want that..especially not since I was hoping to solo even greater WOTLK content and TBC raids come MoP.

  9. #189
    the issue with soloing is that they want to make an exponential curve (non linear) into a linear cuvre. This would make for exemple solo ragnaros 10 time hard, even impossible.

  10. #190
    Mega damage idea doesn't provide exact enough #'s. Definitely squish it down, and soon. Too bad there's no good time to make the change, since they don't want to turn players off by making them feel weaker, who knows what people will do when confronted with such a change.

  11. #191
    I'm for squishing. And if I understand it correct MoP itemlvl's would again explode so at least with the first MoP raid gear you should be able to solo everything again. Soloing would only be a problem at the x.0 stage after old gear gets "normalized" and before the new expansions gear is avaliable.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Yiest View Post
    Seriously. Did you guys even read the post ? Soloing old content will be perfectly viable.
    How much WoLK content can you solo now?

    How much BC content could you solo in Wrath?

    How much Vanilla content could you solo in BC?

    THAT'S what we'll be going back to.

  13. #193
    Squish it please. Its going to get ridonculous.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Doombringer View Post
    Neither solution is particularly elegant. As he highlights in the article, a level 80 piece of gear will not be a great jump from level 60, let alone 70. It can lead to people holding onto old gear and bypassing content, etc, etc, as he also mentioned. To put it into perspective, imagine if the gear you got in Tier 11 at the start of Cata was only a mite bit less powerful than the newest and latest in 4.3?
    Please take into account the current expansion section of that 2nd graph. This is an issue they've already thought of and the solution is not to include current expansion content in the squish. So while older gear will have ilvls that differ by less, rate of growth within the current expansion would remain relatively unchanged. 4.3 gear would still be a good upgrade over 4.1 gear.

    I'd also assume that if a squish solution was adopted that it'd also be taken into account that it would be a process that would be repeated on a semi-regular basis. Although, keep in mind that further iterations of squishes would not need to take older content into account, only that of that newly replaced xpac.

  15. #195
    Stood in the Fire Shefu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Mega numbers sounds like something out of a Japan made RPG. SQUISH IT DOWN TO THE LAST DECIMAL YARR

  16. #196
    instead of squishing they could just go ahead and make 90 gear weaker, and just think about ways to force u to wear it rather than u trying to cheat by wearing 85 gear. For instance (just a off my head example) you could have a buff thats only present when you are wearing all ilvl 600 gear, like the buffs u get now for wearing all leather. Like maybe the new bosses require less dps but they require a resistance or so, thats not present on the gear itself but that you get when you are wearing a full set. If you didnt have the full set you'd die every boss move. I understand its kinda pointless to give every boss the same buff though its just an idea to work along those lines, if you HAD to wear level 90 gear to do level 90 dungeons some how, then ud still be able to solo old content because those raids wouldnt have the restrictions so you could wear lvl 85 gear for those.

  17. #197
    They'll lose so many accounts if they squish item values too much. People will do the first tier of raiding in MOP and then never feel the need to raid again, because their gear will be viable for the whole length of the expansion.

  18. #198
    My answer on the Blizz blog post:

    The 2nd solution is the greatest, but it has multiple premises, and I'll be honest there : I've done all betas of WoW. I'm an extremely experienced player that has a great and intimate knowledge of the "inside" game mechanics.. I'm also a huge blizzard fangirl on most cases. While I do believe you guys sometimes neglect certain issues and aren't perfect by any means, I definitely recognize the overall great polish of all development in WoW. Back to what I was saying, above everything, I value the current PvE encounter progression and the great character progression. All in all, there's a lot of consistency in WoW.

    That being said.... in my eyes, the harsh truth (remember this is *my* own opinion) is that you guys are completely unable to do that on the scale that would be necessary. For technical, material, and developement time limitations. Sure, you could apply a patch that simply reduced all hp and damage by X%, then we both know you wouldn't be satisfied with such an unpolished change. Players wouldn't be satisfied either, and they would be right.

    Character progression would ultimately get completely skewed. The graph you proposed in your 2nd solution would completely ruin the fun for many people (remember all the outrage for level X9 twinks in the past?). I can already imagine lots of level 60-70-80 trinkets being best in slot for higher level people. I can see people using old tier sets for leveling. I can see people who like raiding the old content with very few people (soloing, 2-manning, 3-manning with friends) taking such a huge hit in what they can do. I can see the Lich King (<insert old expansion boss here>) being harder than nearly every Cataclysm raid boss, and nearly every PvE raid instance needing to be re-tuned very tightly to ensure its ohesion. I can see all the bugs happening in various quests everywhere (vehicles, mainly), just like what happened during Cataclysm Beta when you guys scaled the health of all creatures. That was a slight adjustment and broke so many quests...
    Then there's the "nerfed" part. Being nerfed is fine. Going back to multiple years old values is... weird... we have all grown in love with our current HPS/DPS/HP values. Do we really want to go back to +3 Strength upgrades over a breastplate, or the difference between an exceptional and a "good" DPS hovering around.. 200?
    I remember when I played back in Vanilla, entering MC and clearing trash, I thought something along the lines of "damn, if only we could get those molten giants to tank stuff for us". (Yeah, my thoughts are weird.) Those giants had.... 100k HP? When I went back into Molten Core and realized I now had more HP than those giants.. I knew my character had progressed and smiled with nostalgia because I instantly thought back of wishing I could have these giants as tanks before.. I *was* the molten giant.

    In short: I don't believe you guys are able to retune everything. It would take months entirely dedicated to that (if not years) to re-do everyhing. Every PvE encounter. Every raid. And the result would still end up "nerfing" characters compared to old content, and "nerfing" characters compared to their current values (which would be nothing but sentimental - but why do we grow attached to our characters again ?)

    That doesn't mean some tweaks cannot be made, however. What needs to be done, in my opinion:
    - Diminish damage/health a little - enough to give you a bit more time - not enough to feel like characters have been nerfed (no longer than the transitional period of Cata > Pandaria). That means in the first tier of Pandaria, we should already have more damage/health than in the last tier of Cataclysm. You can achieve that through the level gap, talents and various abilities.
    - Tweak the item level formula slightly. A tier upgrade could go down to 10-11-12 instead of 13 ilvl (I mean, why 13 exactly?).
    - Tweak the item level formula again, to reduce their inflation over time. Another possibility: introduce back new stats? Armor penetration wasn't that flawed, honestly.. The more stats you have, the less inflated they become.
    - Implementing a solution like in 1) can also be nice to help alleviate the problem.
    - If you guys really have to go through 2), I feel like leaving character progression the same bewteen different expansions would work if you reduced the lower level values tremendously. 80 -> 85 progression wouldn't even have to be touched if you guys simply divided all the 0-> 60 numbers by 5 or 10. Every one would feel nerfed, sure, but at least the character progression would remain the exact same as it is right now.
    However, I'm not sure how that would be doable for the earlier levels.
    - Retuning the item level formula again, to reduce drastically item inflation, and play upon something that you guys have forgotten a lot - item set bonus and item procs. I really feel like you guys could play a lot more on that department. People would gladly trade pure stats for procs and more and more awesome set bonuses.
    (As a sidenote, I'm also a firm believer that you guys could adress a ton more class balance issues through item sets alone - both PvE and PvP issues)

    Ultimately, and quite shockingly after such a wall of text, I'm also thinking that the current situation doesn't warrant such extreme mesures and Pandaria could be played perfectly fine without touching anything to the current model. The threat cap limitation comes to mind, but caps are only caps until you recode them, right ?

    I'm not sure if this will actually be read in the end - but I hope it will. After all, you asked for thoughts.


  19. #199
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Prague, CZE, EU
    I say the ilvl squish is the way to go. The 1st solution is, frankly, retarded - it would probably be better to just have 8000str on chest.

  20. #200
    The whole reason why numbers are out of place is because of exponential growth. They throw an example like "if we only increase primary stat by one, people would not upgrade their gear", but they don't realize that given this reasoning, there's absolutely no need to increase stats by goddamn 100 per tier. There's surely middle ground between those.

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