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  1. #1

    Shadow: DPS and Raidbuffs

    EDIT: cba with people not reading and commenting so I changed gear back to where it was. The reforge calculations are done by optimizer. Reaching 30% haste is not possible without gloves enchant. I'll still go on with the test on wed with crit prio and 16% hit and post results.




    Greetings, I'd like to know if anyone else is suffering too much damage lost in a 10 man raid environment without the following buffs:

    10% spellpower (we get 6%)
    Spell Crit Debuff on target
    DI

    we do have a 3% increase on overall damage done.

    What I am currently experiencing is below competitive DPS in most boss fights that doesn't include multi dotting.

    I'm used to be top of meters so this issue really concerns me.

    I do not have the legendary and am rolling with normal ragnaros weapon. I know this is a huge issue as well. However from ranking top 15 in WOL to this point is really irritating me.

    Maybe someone has a hint or idea I couldn't come up with myself?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ervaise/simple

    BTW, my dps is not bad for what I'm doing. Like taking traps to calling out things to shielding every cooldown on low HP players and healing here and there when I see absolutely necessary. Yet, I have the feeling that I'm not hitting hard enough.

    Cheers for input.


    Do not respond without reading the later posts. Initial response was too late and experimenting stage with crit is up. Before commenting on reforging go learn how reforge optimization with custom simulated stats work.
    Last edited by Jervaise; 2011-11-07 at 08:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Your reforging seems all over the place for one. In some places you reforge crit to spirit, and other places you reforge spirit to crit. But yes, going from 25 man to 10 your going to lose those buffs and with it a lot of DPS.

    You are also gemming incorrectly. Chest should match sockets for the 20 int, and at your gear level gloves should match too. You could probably reforge for more haste to get past the plateau and get the 65 mastery to gloves.

  3. #3
    My guild was in a similar position at the start of firelands. No warlock meant no extra sp, no crit debuff, and no dark intent. We recently got a warlock in the group and it's been about a 5k dps increase on most fights. The problem with parses on 10m, specifically for shadowpriests, is that nearly every one of the top 200 parses will have a shadowpriest with dark intent. It's difficult to compete when you are missing a buff which accounts for nearly 3k dps alone, and now that dtr's are starting to make their way into 10m's even an average shadowpriest with dtr will be able to score a significantly higher parse than an excellent priest without it. Not sure how close you are to the runestaff or if you are even next in line to get dtr behind your druid, but that will be a significant increase in dps.

    That said, 28k on baleroc does seem a bit low even for your buff disadvantage and 37k on domo is certainly lower than normal. I have a feeling outside of lack of buffs you're main problem is likely the transition to 10m raiding. The fights are slightly different and require personal adjustments in order to optimize dps in the new raid setting. Over time I imagine your dps will passively increase as you find the best way to handle the various mechanics. For instance, in a 25m setting it's more advantageous to dot each of the sons of flames on rag since they have increased health and you personally are less responsible for each add, whereas on 10m you are likely liable for stopping specific adds and thus mind spike is usually a better choice due to their low health. Slight changes in playstyle coupled with buffs more than likely account for the dps loss you're noticing.

    The bad news here is that, as you might suspect, no matter how perfectly you come to play in 10m you will never beat a decent priest with dark intent. Welcome to 10m raiding, hopefully you can work a lock in there eventually.
    Last edited by Hesp; 2011-11-05 at 07:04 AM.

  4. #4
    Shadow Priests are more dependant ont he buffs that other classes bring than most other classes, since we ourselves bring less and one of them (Fortitude) while valuable does not increase dps.

    On the other hand we can't expect tp get our self healing and higher raid survivability for free. There has to be a trade off for that as well.

  5. #5
    My current raid Comp:
    Prot Pally
    Prot Warrior

    Resto Druid
    Holy Pally
    Resto Shamman (Elemental OS)

    Arms Warrior
    Ret Pally (yes we really have a pally of each spec)
    Feral Druid
    (can't remember spec) Hunter
    Shadow Priest (me)

    So i know the pain of missing raid buffs :'(

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesp View Post
    That said, 28k on baleroc does seem a bit low even for your buff disadvantage and 37k on domo is certainly lower than normal
    While I agree, the op needs to look into Staghelm encounter a little bit more, I'd say 28k on baleroc is a pretty nice outcome considering he is probably soaking a shard on his own.
    On topic:
    DI has almost became my guild's inside joke. We never get a Warlock into our group and if one miraculously finds his way into let's say Baradin Hold, our Resto Druid gets it, just to make fun of how much I want this buff. At the moment if you really are a competitive person, 10 man isn't the way to go, unless you have a warlock present. I hope one day me and every other shadow priest will find a Warlock in his group. ;]

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mogling View Post
    Your reforging seems all over the place for one. In some places you reforge crit to spirit, and other places you reforge spirit to crit. But yes, going from 25 man to 10 your going to lose those buffs and with it a lot of DPS.

    You are also gemming incorrectly. Chest should match sockets for the 20 int, and at your gear level gloves should match too. You could probably reforge for more haste to get past the plateau and get the 65 mastery to gloves.
    He should definitely match the shoulders, the chest depends on a number of factors.

    He should if:
    a) he is currently reforging haste to spirit/hit
    b) the 20 haste brings him to a meaningful plateau
    c) mastery/crit (whatever he isn't reforging to spirit due to gemming 20 spirit) are weighed at higher than .5 relative to int.

    For the gloves, only c) applies.


    Otherwise he shouldn't...since hit's usefulness is capped he is effectively gemming 20 crit or 20 mastery (not hit!)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mogling View Post
    Your reforging seems all over the place for one. In some places you reforge crit to spirit, and other places you reforge spirit to crit. But yes, going from 25 man to 10 your going to lose those buffs and with it a lot of DPS.
    regarding the reforging he is probably using some sort of reforge optimiser to get smack bang on the hit cap without going over or under which can require some odd reforging like that to get it exactly right. It looks weird on my DK when trying to hit both the hit cap and the expertise cap at the same time and some are going one way or the other to hit the cap's exactly whilst maximising the other secondary stats.

  9. #9
    Except he is a percent off plus the gem in his chest is a loss of 20 stats, all he has to do is switch to an orange gem plus his shoulders and gloves he should match sockets since there int and he easily over the 6000 mark not to mention he made the dumb socket on his boots which 10 crit rating is garbage

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ambident View Post
    He should definitely match the shoulders, the chest depends on a number of factors.

    He should if:
    a) he is currently reforging haste to spirit/hit
    b) the 20 haste brings him to a meaningful plateau
    c) mastery/crit (whatever he isn't reforging to spirit due to gemming 20 spirit) are weighed at higher than .5 relative to int.

    For the gloves, only c) applies.


    Otherwise he shouldn't...since hit's usefulness is capped he is effectively gemming 20 crit or 20 mastery (not hit!)
    Haste is good even over the cap. Hit is generally as good as haste while under the cap. He bothered to match the +10 crit in his boots lol? And to the other post hes not using a reforing tool to optimize because hes 1% under hit cap and reforging to crit!

  11. #11
    Not having a warlock by itself is gimping your raid in quite a significant way. They are good on so many encounters.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mogling View Post
    Haste is good even over the cap. Hit is generally as good as haste while under the cap. He bothered to match the +10 crit in his boots lol? And to the other post hes not using a reforing tool to optimize because hes 1% under hit cap and reforging to crit!
    Haste isn't capped, gemming 20 haste is an increase in 20 haste.

    Gemming hit is an increase in whatever stat you aren't reforging to hit due to said gem. Since we usually reforge crit or mastery to hit/spirit that is what you are gaining.

    If hit was our most valuable stat by a large margin, say 3x as valuable as intellect, we would still gem intellect and reforge for hit.
    If haste was our most valuable stat by a large margin, say 3x as valuable as intellect, we would gem haste.

  13. #13
    I do feel your pain.

    That once every blue moon i get DI + 10% sp buff i almost cry for the happiness and the quality of my parses.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ambident View Post
    Haste isn't capped, gemming 20 haste is an increase in 20 haste.

    Gemming hit is an increase in whatever stat you aren't reforging to hit due to said gem. Since we usually reforge crit or mastery to hit/spirit that is what you are gaining.

    If hit was our most valuable stat by a large margin, say 3x as valuable as intellect, we would still gem intellect and reforge for hit.
    If haste was our most valuable stat by a large margin, say 3x as valuable as intellect, we would gem haste.
    You are correct haste is not cap'd I guess i should have said above the plateau that is 30% haste buffed as most of the time I see people talking about that number like it is a soft cap.
    Gemming hit is tricky, If there exists a situation where with optimal reforging you are say 30 points from the cap, gemming int/hit over int will be a gain in hit over that other stat.
    Also its worth simming your own stat weights with your own buffs rather than going by default values. For me, with my raid setup and buffs I value crit above mastery.

  15. #15
    Oooops. No one responded to the post so i was experimenting, normal build is like the following


    2589 haste
    Hit cap
    Master>crit.


    However, im going for a crit based build now to try out the heroic vlpc's capabilities.

    Ill post results next raid.

    Before this I used to go for full haste without considering any other secondary stats (tier 11)

    New sims show without hit cap I can get better results, I have yet to test that too.

    I went worgen to try out %1 extra crit which is otherwise unattainable.

    Edit: on baleroc i'm soaking 2 full shards.

    Playwise I don't have many issues, i have seen the very top of WOL with proper buffs and competitive gear.

    However, one thing that really matters these days is that since I can't top meters I tend to do secondary jobs like shielding off-healing and raid calling.

    On rag i take traps, call flames etc.

    If you check epeen bot with my name you'll see that I used to get so much better rankings with inferior gear.


    On reforging i use reforge lite with custom simmed stat weights to get most accurate hit cap + best possible secondary stat rating points. It's not reforged single handedly.

    Cheers for input even if it was late

    Edit 2: my best in baleroc with taking 2 full shards is 32k

    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/eu/darkspear/jervaise/

    Can see details here.

    i'm more interested in the psychological side of having no buffs. It tends to make me perform worse thinking "there is nomway I can pull that much anyways"
    Last edited by Jervaise; 2011-11-05 at 09:54 PM.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    3,253
    The following post is more about spriests in general:

    I don't understand why 5 % crit on target, 10 % spell power 3 % damage and partly 8 % spell damage isnt spread across more classes. Shadow priests are definitely lacking a 2nd good damage raid buff/debuff instead of fortitude/replenishment... And don't get me started on how DI and legendary aswell as current tier 12 mechanics ruins any competetive aspect of DPS ranking/meter competetion..

    Lets have a look on raid buffs/debuffs on the different dps classes:

    Warlocks: All locks have 5 % spell crit on target and curse of elements (aff has best version). - both quite rare and CoE is extremely useful. Demo has 10 % spell power which is ridiculous. Demo offers too much in my opinion. - DI is a special buff in this case.

    Mages: All mages offers 6 % spell power, this raid buff is comparable to the 5 % spell haste from shadow priests. While frost mages bring replenishment (like us) and fire mages offers 5 % spell crit like warlocks, realisticly only arcane is being played competetively this tier (alysrazor the obvious exception). And 3 % raid damage from arcane mages is very rare in itself, definitely one of the reasons why you would always bring an arcane mage, unless you're interrested in the subpar state of the current retri paladins.

    Boomkins: 8 % spell power and 5 % haste. Enough said. An upgrade version of shadow priests raid buff wise.

    Elemental shamans: Comparable to demo locks with 5 % crit aura, all kinds of totem buffs (5 % haste included) and the OP 10 % spell power.

    Shadow priests - together with destro warlocks and frost mages (lol), are the only three dps caster specs that lacks a dps raid buff/debuff in order to bring in replenishment to the raid. I dont see why it isnt a possibility to add a 3rd dps raid buff/debuff to shadow priests. 10 % spell power could be very much needed to balance out the need of strict 10man comps, however 5 % crit or 3 % raid damage would be a good choice as well.
    If you asked me, I would let healers only bring in replenishment, like they added to resto druids in Cata, while DPS can take care of dps buffs.


    And I don't know why Blizzard haven't fixed the DPS monstrosities known as Boomkins and Shadow Priests as of yet. - Remove the perks of Mushrooms / Mind Sear as well as multidotting, or make it less powerful (so we're not that good on lol-gimmicky fights), however to compensate make them competetive on pure Patchwerk fights.
    Personally I don't know who Blizzard doesn't do something like the following: Nerf dots by X % but make DP increase damage done by DoTs/mind flay (maybe even mind blast) by X %. Would fix huge issues. It's really a fkin wake up call when you see Boomkins and Shadow priests 5-6k below the highest simmed DPS on patchwerk fights in current gear in 4.3 (obviously no legendary taken into account).

  17. #17
    Blademaster
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
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    I too, feel the pain of this issue
    Tanks: bear druid, prot pally
    Healers: holy pally, resto druid, resto shaman
    DPS: shadow priest, ele sham, ele sham, hunter, rogue.

    What also sucks is being the only one able to take traps on H Rag, and getting knock-backed in the air either off the platform or into the wall of fire blocking the door without knowing it has an invisible ledge that will kill you from falling damage

    WTB a mage or warlock.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
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    Dallas, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahagin View Post
    DI has almost became my guild's inside joke. We never get a Warlock into our group and if one miraculously finds his way into let's say Baradin Hold, our Resto Druid gets it, just to make fun of how much I want this buff. At the moment if you really are a competitive person, 10 man isn't the way to go, unless you have a warlock present. I hope one day me and every other shadow priest will find a Warlock in his group. ;]
    We have 3-4 locks in our raid, and 1 shadow priest.

    I love how they fight over who gives me DI.
    Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontificate View Post
    We have 3-4 locks in our raid, and 1 shadow priest.

    I love how they fight over who gives me DI.
    You sir, Must live in Soviet Russia

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontificate View Post
    We have 3-4 locks in our raid, and 1 shadow priest.

    I love how they fight over who gives me DI.
    See now I hate you

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