Thread: Disc vs Holy

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  1. #21
    There's a difference between "fine" and "good." When people make a qualification that a spec is good or bad, they are using those words as a relative comparison to the common competitors. When you talk about holy tank healing and make judgments about its quality, the most obvious comparison will be to the disc spec.

    Yes holy is "fine" for tank healing, but it is not "as good" as disc tank healing.

  2. #22
    For 10 man disc will almost always be better. Especially in two heal fights where you heal the tank quite a bit as well. Its not like 25 man where X person is assigned to raid heal and Y is tank healing. Its more...


  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Denae View Post
    Heal H Baleroc as holy and then as disc and tell me holy tank healing is fine. It can be done as holy, but is SO much easier as disc.
    The difference between Holy and Disc in that encounter is minor. You stack sparks at roughly the same rate, and keeping the tank alive is equally a joke. It is fine, the big issue with H.Baeloric is RNG from debuff if a healer gets it passed to them during countdown, and spec has little to do with what results.


    On a whole, depending on the fight, Holy and Disc both have their advantages in FLs. Holy wins out on Shannox, Rhyolith, , Domo and Rag. And I prefer it on Bethtilac b/c I'm very easily able to keep multiple DPS alive when Im up on the web with little trouble due to rolling Renews on all of us up there.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    The difference between Holy and Disc in that encounter is minor. You stack sparks at roughly the same rate, and keeping the tank alive is equally a joke. It is fine, the big issue with H.Baeloric is RNG from debuff if a healer gets it passed to them during countdown, and spec has little to do with what results.


    On a whole, depending on the fight, Holy and Disc both have their advantages in FLs. Holy wins out on Shannox, Rhyolith, , Domo and Rag. And I prefer it on Bethtilac b/c I'm very easily able to keep multiple DPS alive when Im up on the web with little trouble due to rolling Renews on all of us up there.
    Ugh no. Do you realize how OP shields, and Divine Aegis on Baleroc are?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayita View Post
    Ugh no. Do you realize how OP shields, and Divine Aegis on Baleroc are?
    You say this like Holy's Mastery doesn't get affected by this encounter or something?
    The bottle neck on Baleroc is RNG with countdown passing along the AIDS to a healer or a DPS durping a crystal. That aside, keeping the tank alive is a joke.
    The only healer issue I've seen is that Resto druids need a tweaked spec for this fight to perform well.

  6. #26
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    The whole Disc > Holy thing is so wrong. I run Holy as my main and i'm almost always on top of the healing charts. I know each has there strong/weak points depending on various things. It just gets old hearing people down Holy Priest Spec like Fire to Arcane Mages. I'm not to sure what got this whole idea floating around the WoW community. I would assume one bad apple spoils them all maybe?

    OT- To the original question... The end result of what to choose Disc or Holy comes down to trying both specs and sticking with the one you enjoyed playing more.
    Last edited by Gnomepunting; 2011-11-08 at 03:36 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomepunting View Post
    The whole Disc > Holy thing is so wrong. I run Holy as my main and i'm almost always on top of the healing charts. I know each has there strong/weak points depending on various things. It just gets old hearing people down Holy Priest Spec like Fire to Arcane Mages. I'm not to sure what got this whole idea floating around the WoW community. I would assume one bad apple spoils them all maybe?
    My personal pet theory is that the initial knee jerk phobia around the lack of Spirit gear in FLs triggered the cascade. And it was perpetuated by initial quirky bugs like Penance giving you tripple the sparks on Baleroc for a two week period. The fact that Paragon's 10 man used a Holy on most fights (including Baleroc) for their world first kills was besides the point. Some very vocal people pushed Disc to be "the" spec, and now it's assumed to be so. It's quite laughable. I've been very consistently performing very well as Holy, and I in no way have been the bottleneck to us killing anything this tier.


    OT- To the original question... The end result of what to choose Disc or Holy comes down to trying both specs and sticking with the one you enjoyed playing more.
    Pretty much this. This tier, spec really doesn't matter on 10 man. And on 25 man, you'll want both specs in your raid.

  8. #28
    Divine Aegis and PWS are far better suited than holy's mastery on Baleroc. But whatever, you don't need to agree with 99% of the priest community on that.

    Also, no it does not come down to which you enjoy to play more if you are raiding end game, heroic modes, etc. I used to be main spec holy, and I do love the play style but guess what? Its not nearly as good and therefore I don't play it atm. Its about doing whats best for your raid as a whole.

    You may not have been 'the bottleneck' to your raids kills, but not playing the best spec to your comp is a hindrance to the raid. Just my 2c.
    Last edited by Irielle; 2011-11-08 at 05:50 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Serona View Post
    i have to claim bullshit on that one sry. a holy priest is aswell capable of tank healing
    You can call bullshit but disc is better for tank healing than holy is. Any spec can tank heal but we all know they won't compare to disc or holy paladin.


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  10. #30
    In general, it's Discipline. Holy's only better than Discipline on certain fights, and even then I think it depends on whether or not you have a Resto Druid in your group. Also, I'm pretty sure Holy struggles to Tank Heal because of mana issues.
    Last edited by Erto; 2011-11-08 at 05:51 PM.

  11. #31
    As one of those "vocal priests claiming Disc > Holy" in 4.2, I cannot help but disagree that Holy is a good raiding spec for 4.2.

    - When progressing and people are making silly mistakes - Holy will run OOM before Disc. Holy has a lower mana gain and a higher mana consumption than a disc priest.
    - The lack of a cooldown is a major impediment, and a direct showstopper on several bosses. Most fights in 4.2 are designed around cooldown rotations. This is resolved in 4.3.
    - While I am apparently the only holypriest in the world running without infinite mana, me running oom is a major source of wipes in my guild. Does not happen as Disc.
    - Nobody is using the lightwell no matter how much I beg or threaten.
    - Proactive healing beats reactive healing.
    - Disc single target burst is far superior to Holy single target burst. While Holy is much better in AoE burst, this skill is simply not needed in the firelands. Single target burst is.
    - And finally: subjectivity. I feel handicapped when going Holy, but I feel incredibly powerful when going Disc, and things no longer die? Why?

    Let me expand on that last one. I really struggle to not lose people as Holy. It's an endless struggle of gambling a Greater Heal versus throwing those incredibly expensive Flash Heals around. The GHeals are risky, the FHeals are safe, but only lasts for a minute or two and as such is only something I can do on trash. As Disc, I have much better single target healing tools available, and noone seems to take much damage. Yet, as disc, my HPS is lower, and I barely know what half of my abilities actually do. I cannot really explain the difference. But it is certainly there, to the point where I am mostly forbidden to even go holy on trash.

    I will agree that there is nothing really wrong with the holypriest outputs. Holy is a strong healing spec. I feel that all my heals make a notable and important impact, and neither are pointless (Except Holy Nova). While I still believe Disc outputs to be better, this is not a problem. Holy is certainly strong enough. And yet... things die. They don't when I run as disc. And that is my largest issue. Because I really really miss Body & Soul and Circle of Healing.

    From what I have seen of patch 4.3, much of this is indeed changing. Divine Hymn is resolving the cooldown issue, and doubles as a clutch ability when you really need that extra mileage. The spirit issue is resolved, and more gear means more mana available. Also, the fights seem to not be solely focused on single target burst healing anymore. In fact, I have high hopes for the 4.3 raids, to the point where I fear I may even be a bit disappointed due to putting all my eggs in that basket. Noone really knows how the heroic 4.3 raids will play out.

    But if you ask me, the holypriest should be in a good spot in the next patch. Disc will probably still be better, but as long as I don't feel I am subpar as holy, that shouldn't matter too much. The patch really cannot get here soon enough!
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  12. #32
    @ Danner: "Disc single target burst is far superior to Holy single target burst. While Holy is much better in AoE burst, this skill is simply not needed in the firelands. Single target burst is."

    This, so much this. Especially on 10 man. You are the everything healer. You tank heal, you raid heal. Almost all is single target. (Yes, ofc there are certain fights where this is the exception, but overall, etc).

  13. #33
    Every fight favours a different healing class. You can't say that healing on druids is completely overpowered since they suck at e.g. Baleroc, they aren't very strong tank healers either, and alot of the hots go to pure overhealing cause most players get healed to full by another class before a rejuvenation can tick off. Same with Wild Growth, druids aren't always no. 1) on overhealing. (Sorry, was referring to some comments)

    Discs, as you probably know, are amazing for damage prevention, so bosses like Beth'tilac (normal pre-nerf, and heroic) or Majordomo (in low gear before the nerf, and heroic), Baleroc as well as Ragnaros heroic are amazing to heal as a Disc priest, with the Shields and Barrier being life-savers. However, I've seen Holy performing just as well, though their AoE is at the moment a bit better than Disc. I myself heal Beth'tilac 'downstairs' with a resto druid/holy priest comp, and even though the hps done might vary by 1-2k, it's pretty much the same.

    Holy can be very versatile since you can switch between different auras. One that makes AoE healing alot more sufficient, and one that makes single target healing more sufficient. They have a spell for every situation. Disc is not about healing people up, if you'd try to do that, you'd most likely go oom.

    So it depends what you want to do at 85, I'd say try it both out and see for yourself. I prefer being holy cause it's alot more fun, but went disc when it was needed for shields/barrier.

    Don't really listen to people that say this or that class is better at healing, even spec wise. Every spec and every class brings something to the raid that is viable. In the end it's about how well you can play it.

  14. #34
    Danner, if memory serves me well you made some posts within the last month talking about your bad experiences with Holy and after conversing with you it came down to you doing it wrong. When I addressed the individual things you could do to make the experience much more positive (basically fixing your issues), you never responded and continued to perpetuate FUD. Enough already. Don't assume the way you played was the only way and that Holy sucks... it doesn't ... you 'did it wrong'.

    Specifically for 10 man raiding as Holy, which you personally had the issues with, you should have:
    Stacked Mastery over Haste, since you were ooming so much.
    Used fiend and Hymn at the same time for increased mana returns.
    It even seemed like you broke the channel on Hymn b/c you don't understand how the mana return mechanic for that spell works.
    And you were misusing Holy Word Serenity if I recall.



    @Ayita
    Just saying "it just is" does not make DA and PWS better than Holy's Mastery. First off, the onus is on you to back up your claims. Second, you're comparing Holy's Mastery vs Disc's Mastery + a healing spell. The comparison is laughably irrelevant. What matters is the whole kit, and Holy has sufficient single target burst.

    For Baleroc specifically:
    Flashx2/Gheal/Serenity is a ton of healing burst. And EoL procs from every single one of those heals vs random crits that proc DA.
    And GS works very well on either the tank or a DPS

  15. #35
    Themos:

    Your memory is impressive. I did read your replies back during our last bout, but I didn't have much to reply to them. Mostly because it boiled down to you requiring to me regearing for mastery, to which I had previously replied that I wasn't actually up to par to doing. In short - I'm getting old, and my youthly 0.1 second guardian spirit reflexes just aren't there anymore. I need a minimum of haste as a crutch for landing heals in time. It's basically the stat that fits my playstyle the best. Yes, the downside is mana concerns, but not to that degree. As for the shadowfiend, I was already doing what you suggest, it's somewhat common knowledge. And the hymn cancelling was something I even inputted on doing wrong.

    Nonetheless, our debate aside - I do not think I am doing FUD when I say that 4.2 wasn't a good patch for the holypriest. But patch 4.3 certainly looks to be a great patch for the holypriest, and I am absolutely looking forward to it. Any problems the holypriest had (or in your opinion didn't have) in 4.2 should indeed vanish once it rolls out.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  16. #36
    The kit is identical try them both out!

  17. #37
    A good player can make holy work, in the right group. Mazi said it the best way: healing comp is about synergy, not necessarily just muscle.

    It's unarguable that disc has more muscle than holy right now, but really they do pretty different jobs. When the job at hand suits a holy priest, trying to make disc fit is a lot like placing a square peg in a round hole. Sure, disc gets a larger manapool, more regen, AND better efficiency than holy in most situations. What that means: to post competitive numbers you HAVE TO play some tricks to get your healing efficiency up there:
    - make maximum use of PoM and HW:Sanc (everything I say is in relation to 25 man)
    - get really low overheal on CoH / PoH & echo
    - avoid pretty much everything else as much as possible
    - no joke, figure out how to use conc potions, set up some UI notifier so you KNOW when the most optimal moment is to pop your first fiend. What few (5?) extra PoH you get out of doing all that makes more of a difference than you would think.

    No healer but a holy priest can burst up to 70k raw HPS without use of a cooldown. If you're clever, in the right group, you can still look like a rockstar playing holy. Live or die on sub-20% overheal, though, and that's a real challenge.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-11-08 at 10:54 PM.

  18. #38
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Atm:
    10m: disc is far superior.
    25m: both specs are viable and each have it's own advantages.

    4.3:
    I still think holy is gonna struggle to keep up on mana, especially once Disc priests get so much mana that they can almost spam flash heal instead of greater heal, greatly increasing their single target hps.
    Last edited by Yilar; 2011-11-08 at 11:44 PM.

  19. #39
    Actually, hpm for flash heal spam favors Holy more due to Serendipity giving you the better option of doing Fhealx2/Gheal instead
    The mana reduction on Gheal counters the increased mana expenditures of Fheal if you compare equivalent HPS.



    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Themos:

    Your memory is impressive. I did read your replies back during our last bout, but I didn't have much to reply to them. Mostly because it boiled down to you requiring to me regearing for mastery, to which I had previously replied that I wasn't actually up to par to doing. In short - I'm getting old, and my youthly 0.1 second guardian spirit reflexes just aren't there anymore. I need a minimum of haste as a crutch for landing heals in time. It's basically the stat that fits my playstyle the best. Yes, the downside is mana concerns, but not to that degree. As for the shadowfiend, I was already doing what you suggest, it's somewhat common knowledge. And the hymn cancelling was something I even inputted on doing wrong.
    At FL level, we don't have gear options. Only one spirit piece in each slot and a belt with no spirit. There is no regearing, it's just a quick trip to the reforger. GS *twitch* use is basically the same as PS, I don't follow why it's harder to use.

    And you made a huge deal out of mana issues when you were trying to heal the MT. Some of it if I recall was overuse of Fheal as well?

    Irregardless, Disc suiting your playstyle is your prerogative. I've never said anyting about all priests should be Holy. Do what you want.
    I'm antagonizing your insistence that Holy itself is to blame and the spec not being viable. The fault was clearly yours and saying it's a bad spec is FUD.

    You have very little actual experience with Holy in Firelands, you're not in a good position to say what works and what doesn't with the spec this tier.


    Nonetheless, our debate aside - I do not think I am doing FUD when I say that 4.2 wasn't a good patch for the holypriest. But patch 4.3 certainly looks to be a great patch for the holypriest, and I am absolutely looking forward to it. Any problems the holypriest had (or in your opinion didn't have) in 4.2 should indeed vanish once it rolls out.
    There is a critical flaw in this rationale, all the reasons why you had issue with the spec in 4.2 don't go away in 4.3
    -the mana expenditure is exactly the same <------which was your biggest issue with trying to tank heal as Holy
    -the twitch on GS is exactly the same


    All Holy is getting that will impact PvE is a raid cooldown. Which is fairly important in 10 man, where the number of raid cooldowns are limited and few.
    The Serenity buff & fix, while nice won't be a game changer. It'll just augment what already works fine.
    Last edited by Themos; 2011-11-09 at 06:21 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    Atm:
    10m: disc is far superior.
    25m: both specs are viable and each have it's own advantages.

    4.3:
    I still think holy is gonna struggle to keep up on mana, especially once Disc priests get so much mana that they can almost spam flash heal instead of greater heal, greatly increasing their single target hps.
    Greater Heal is higher HPS than Flash Heal, unless your target's going to die before it lands. The only exception to this is if Serendipity comes into play, which as Discipline this just isn't true.
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