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  1. #1

    Shadow Priests simming low on 4.3 simcraft

    At least as relative to other dps specs. Lower than frost mages /gasp


    Thoughts?

    simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T12H.html

  2. #2
    http://simulationcraft.org/420/Raid_T12H.html

    There you have the simcrafts for t12 content and I'm pretty sure I'm up fighting for the top 3 spots in my guild and on my server in dps.

    http://simulationcraft.org/410/Raid_T11_372.html

    There you have the simcrafts for t11 and I'm pretty sure I was topping the dps on pretty much everything there.

    Don't give a jizz about simcrafts prepatch they are allways wrong and have never relfected any true dps rankings.

  3. #3
    Well did you take a closer look at the gear being used. They are still using Darkmoon card and not VPLC. Also these sims are done on patchwork environments. To get an accurate dps reading we would need 1000 sims of patchwork, semi patchwork, semi helterskelter and helterskelter. Also do 1000 tests on double dotting environments. Then take the avg of all these types of fights and go from there.

    This is why these readings are never accurate for us.

  4. #4
    I don't think the t13 sims were done correctly. It's possible that we stop scaling somehow, but I would sooner believe the gear wasn't tuned to our class or something odd like that.

    It's no secret that our tier 13 set bonuses are kind of lame. It's also possible that they are "so lame" that they are affecting our potential top end output so strongly. However if that is really the case... holy heck.
    Last edited by Kilee25; 2011-11-07 at 02:55 PM.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    I don't think the t13 sims were done correctly. It's possible that we stop scaling somehow, but I would sooner believe the gear wasn't tuned to our class or something odd like that.

    It's no secret that our tier 13 set bonuses are kind of lame. It's also possible that they are "so lame" that they are affecting our potential top end output so strongly. However if that is really the case... holy heck.
    they are not t13 sims and here you have the multidotting sims http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t123944-...clysm_edition/ (4.2 still)
    Last edited by Cursedfate; 2011-11-07 at 03:13 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Cursedfate View Post
    they are not t13 sims and here you have the multidotting sims http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t123944-...clysm_edition/ (4.2 still)
    I see.. well the t12H from the EJ link would place us at 3611 dps, just above enh shamans on the 4.3 list, so that's not much of any improvement. Still seems wonky...
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    The Old Guard - my Earthen Ring guild
    Revenant - my Echo Isles guild
    HowToPriest - a great priest forum

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ishadan View Post
    Thoughts?
    That we simmed pretty low for this tier, yet came out as one of, if not the strongest DPS class...
    I wouldn't worry about it too much.

  8. #8
    Ok we need to do a few things:
    1) Get list of BiS Heroic T13
    2) Sim using this list w/ all types of encounters and multi dot
    3) take avg of stat weights
    4) rework BiS heroic T13 and resim
    5) resim and loop 1-5
    6) Produce list of avg dps and stat weights
    7) Create list of gear with PP weights

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer
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    Yes, it sucks on any true patchwerk fight. But blizzard is blinded by the fact that the top shadow priest dps (absolute value) are all wearing legendaries, being fed DI and does excellent DPS on fights with heavy movement/lot of aoe/multidot cleaving/external haste. However if you DON'T wear a legendary and doesn't have a DI avialable, good luck pulling your weight on an insane DPS check like Baleroc.
    Luckily dispersion was useful on Baleroc tho.

    Same goes for Moonkins, they have too many perks to be given a decent max single target dps capacity.

  10. #10
    You won't be top in Ultraxion, I can tell you that. The numbers are right, we aren't very good in single-target fights. But there aren't alot of them, so it's fine for me.

  11. #11
    I don't think it's going to be any issue. Spriests still excel on movement and aoe fights vs other casters.
    This difference is fairly marginal and easily consumed by skill gaps.
    Also this isn't t13 gear, and t12 4pc is getting a pretty big nerf in 4.3

  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk Deleo's Avatar
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    I think they just assume we have DI all the time and balance us around that.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleo View Post
    I think they just assume we have DI all the time and balance us around that.
    I agree. I'm also fairly certain the melee buff was to keep top guilds from stacking casters with legendaries. Doing a quick search through the top guilds, most top guilds will have up to 7-10 legendaries in house when 4.3 hits. What would stop two high end guilds from forming an alliance and bringing 17 caster dps with 17 legendaries? All you need is a few subsidiary guilds helping to farm legendaries for the push and disperse your primary casters into those guilds temporarily.

    You can't say the melee buff wasn't purely an anticipation of that happening, especially when looking at the raid log parses. All the casters in the top parses are wearing legendaries and making range look far better than they are without. (Legendary adds close to 5000 dps.) Even so they are nerfing the legendary for 4.3, so you know it's been an issue, even if Bliz hasn't officially admitted it.
    Last edited by Kilee25; 2011-11-07 at 06:05 PM.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    The Old Guard - my Earthen Ring guild
    Revenant - my Echo Isles guild
    HowToPriest - a great priest forum

  14. #14
    Considering that DI is going to worth a good 3.5k-4k dps single target in 4.3, that would actually place us quite near the top. Whether this is proper class balance is another question; I'm not sure I agree that a class should fluctuate between top and bottom dps class based on the presence of another class in the raid. Coupled with the facts that the bis t12 gear set being used in that sim isn't optimal, our t12 4 piece has been nerfed, and that shadowpriests will excel on any fight in 4.3 due to their amazing toolkit and I would say that shadow looks to be in a great place come 4.3 (for priests with DI). Nothing much has changed, shadow has been middle-lower end for patchwerk sims all 3 tiers but we've been one of the most competitive dps specs this whole time.

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hesp View Post
    Considering that DI is going to worth a good 3.5k-4k dps single target in 4.3, that would actually place us quite near the top. Whether this is proper class balance is another question; I'm not sure I agree that a class should fluctuate between top and bottom dps class based on the presence of another class in the raid. Coupled with the facts that the bis t12 gear set being used in that sim isn't optimal, our t12 4 piece has been nerfed, and that shadowpriests will excel on any fight in 4.3 due to their amazing toolkit and I would say that shadow looks to be in a great place come 4.3 (for priests with DI). Nothing much has changed, shadow has been middle-lower end for patchwerk sims all 3 tiers but we've been one of the most competitive dps specs this whole time.
    I think you are overrating DI by a huge margin.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    Yes, it sucks on any true patchwerk fight. But blizzard is blinded by the fact that the top shadow priest dps (absolute value) are all wearing legendaries, being fed DI and does excellent DPS on fights with heavy movement/lot of aoe/multidot cleaving/external haste. However if you DON'T wear a legendary and doesn't have a DI avialable, good luck pulling your weight on an insane DPS check like Baleroc.
    Luckily dispersion was useful on Baleroc tho.

    Same goes for Moonkins, they have too many perks to be given a decent max single target dps capacity.
    Same balancing conundrum that these super powerful buffs give out. Do you balance the classes that benefit the most from it with it so they are competitive with it and a bit up without or opposite and they are op with it. Kind of like an arcane mage back in wrath getting fed tricks, pi, and innervates hymm and mana tide.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-07 at 10:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    I agree. I'm also fairly certain the melee buff was to keep top guilds from stacking casters with legendaries. Doing a quick search through the top guilds, most top guilds will have up to 7-10 legendaries in house when 4.3 hits. What would stop two high end guilds from forming an alliance and bringing 17 caster dps with 17 legendaries? All you need is a few subsidiary guilds helping to farm legendaries for the push and disperse your primary casters into those guilds temporarily.

    You can't say the melee buff wasn't purely an anticipation of that happening, especially when looking at the raid log parses. All the casters in the top parses are wearing legendaries and making range look far better than they are without. (Legendary adds close to 5000 dps.) Even so they are nerfing the legendary for 4.3, so you know it's been an issue, even if Bliz hasn't officially admitted it.
    Or once you have h rag just switch an alt in and farm legendary in alt raid with main just like smourne.

  17. #17
    Simcraft has proved time and again to be rubbish, I've been topping PTR fights comfortably with similar geared people (granted I have DTR, but we're certainly not in as bad a position as Simcraft would have you think).

  18. #18
    Simcraft isn't rubbish, it's very accurate for what it simulates. You just need to understand what it simulates. Most of the people don't even know how to use it properly.

  19. #19
    Simcraft cannot clip mind flay. Why are people still having these discussions about shadow. Use it as a generalization for stat value but do not ever use it to reference damage output.
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  20. #20
    I'm worried about how crap is our T13 bonuses.

    Very, very lame.

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