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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Pert View Post
    I assume that this will proceed all the way up. A group in Ohio is attempting to get an amendment in place to their state constitution, should be interesting to see how that goes.
    They can do whatever they want. Federal law trumps state constitutions.

  2. #82
    Roughly 25% of trials are funded via government and about 42-48% of R&D. Combine that with the patent protections Pharma gets and while most might not be correct the amount is substantial.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by krumz View Post
    They can do whatever they want. Federal law trumps state constitutions.
    Yes, exactly. Just like many states still have laws on the books banning abortion- but Roe V. Wade takes precedence. It doesn't matter what a state rules if the federal government rules otherwise.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamado View Post
    Okay, calm down. I'm talking about Universal Health Care. Not Obamacare.

    Obamacare was created by and is largely supported by people who want Universal Health Care, so when we debate Obamacare, I'd prefer to talk about what those people wanted instead of what they got. While the topics do cross, they are separate issues. Just like talking about the constitutionality of the law is silly, debating the difference between forcing people to buy health insurance (through fines and fees) and giving away free care and paying for it with taxes is silly.
    Sorry, for the bolded angst. It's frustrating to have this same tired argument. I support anything that lowers the cost of healthcare in general, whether that be the health care itself, or insurance for it. My costs are rising because people either can't afford to have insurance/care, or refuse to have insurance/care. I don't care if it's run by the private sector or the public sector.

    If you're talking UHC, that's a different story. Though it has its disadvantages, I find it better than what we have now. And most Canadians will tell you that it's most certainly not free. You pay taxes and you pay for a "plan". (Would be nice for our Canuck friends to chime in on this)

    Either way, UHC/Obamacare is not free healthcare. It bugs the crap out of me to hear people say that. Medicaid is the very definition of socialized medicine, and it's not free. Just have a look at your paystub and tell me otherwise.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Dashield28 View Post
    Yet Americans keep listening to those clowns on Fox News spew their bile lies instead of trying to get an unbiased view and educate themselves.
    You can find that unbiased view somewhere between Atlantis and that unicorn farm down the street, just off Interstate √(-1).
    Now, THIS thing? THIS thing is horrible. It's just awful. It was awful at 60 and it was awful at 58. It's awful at 45. If this dropped off a mob in Wailing Caverns when you were level 17 and being run through by a higher level character, you would equip it ONLY because you don't have trinkets at that level, and it would STILL SUCK.
    -Wowhead user on the Lion Horn of Stormwind, an epic from the era of so-called "EPIC" epics.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Roughly 25% of trials are funded via government and about 42-48% of R&D. Combine that with the patent protections Pharma gets and while most might not be correct the amount is substantial.
    Most drugs have 10 years remaining on their patent by the time they are deemed marketable, and that's with these companies committing to continue Phase-IV clinical trials (post-marketing surveillance on their drug, which could lead to damning evidence and make the FDA reverse the drug's marketability). Claiming that 25% of all clinical trials are funded by the government is an outrageous exaggeration; only the claim that 42-48% of R&D is paid for by the government is more outrageous. The government, if anything, is the reason why pharmaceutical companies have to spend as much as they do over such a long period of time, although it is for the protection of future patients on the drug.

    Patent protections are the only reason why any company would spend this time and effort on a drug. If they did not exist, it would not be a profitable business, period.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by IIBlackmagikII View Post
    Anyway, baseless facts aside, forcing people to buy health insurance (which has no affect on those who already do have insurance, except potentially make premiums go down) may sound harsh, but the alternative is to allow the price of prescriptions and medical procedures to skyrocket. The more uninsured there are, the less hospitals and clinics are receiving for the care that they provide, so the more hospitals and clinics have to put on those who ARE insured (i.e. ask more from insurance companies, leading to higher premiums.)

    Though socialism is this scary, evil word, in this example - spreading the risk to everyone makes it cheaper, in the end, for everyone.
    Not only this, but it makes it so we become a healthier society. In a better system, we don't have to skip the doctor visit for that pesky flu or arm numbness or back pain to avoid the deductible/co-pays(insured) or flat-out costs(uninsured). So it lowers costs even more because that back pain you found now lets you avoid that costly surgery down the road.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    That's the problem. You choose what to smoke, eat, or drink, and need medical care. If you decide not to buy insurance, who suffers? The rest of us, in increased costs. You don't live in a bubble. This obviously isn't the case for every argument, so it most definitely is a slippery slope argument.
    If you don't have any insurance and drink yourself to death, you suffer - the costs aren't socialized on the rest of society. This is where personal responsibility comes in.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by icedwarrior View Post
    You mean like Car Insurance? Sorry, I fail to see how this is any different than that. I'm not sold on this health care idea, but I think that it's a good idea in principle. Just the forcing of it is what I have issue with.
    see thats the slippery slope argument, I always get yelled at when I bring it up because people say that concept isn't real.
    So whats next them "in the name of protecting the population" should we have college fund insurance? Should we have rape insurance? Should we be forcing everyone to insure everything now?

    Its like the cigarette bans, the fast food bans, then its the soda bans, the sugar and sweet bans, the meat ban, the donut ban.

    be careful of what you think its ok for TODAY because you may not like what happens tomorrow.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Gmollster11 View Post
    I would rather live in America than Germany. Anytime someone compares us to another country, and suggests the other country is better should get a free one-way ticket to live there. And no coming back.


    oh, as much fun as i had there, im not saying i'd want to live there. im just using it as an example that most other "modern" civilized nations/countries have figured out healthcare for the most part, and aren't out to screw people out of money like our system clearly does.


    i'll give another example: about 7-8 months ago i woke up with terrible stomach pains, and was having blood come out both ends.....pretty horrendous stuff, lol anywho, i go to the hospital (thankfully i had insurance at the time), they run a bunch of tests, stick me full of IV's, prescribe me some pills, and couldnt even tell me what was wrong with me in the end (im not even shitting you on this one, the doctor literally told my brother that went with me that i "drank too much and ate too many redvines", when i had A beer with dinner and couple redvines later as munchies), and that was their answer. although they couldnt tell me what was actually wrong with me, they could send my insurance company a bill for nearly 20,000 dollars (i was there a total of 3 hours, from entrance to emergency room to exit), how is this remotely legit? rofl


    im not 100% on universal healthcare being THE answer, i am 100% on the way our current health care system is being run is total shit and needs to be reformed from the inside out. forcing everyone to pay in our current setup of corruption and greed is not the answer, making sure everyone is covered with good and clear intentions, is the answer. like most have said, its a slippery sloap, not in terms of difficulty, but because our system is ran the way it is.
    Last edited by rigoremortis; 2011-11-08 at 10:04 PM.

  11. #91
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    If you're talking UHC, that's a different story. Though it has its disadvantages, I find it better than what we have now. And most Canadians will tell you that it's most certainly not free. You pay taxes and you pay for a "plan". (Would be nice for our Canuck friends to chime in on this)
    We don't really pay for a plan.

    In Ontario we have OHIP which is "free" (ie, paid for through taxes) and is available to any Ontario citizen. On top of that we also have private insurance companies to cover the shit that OHIP doesn't (prescriptions, non-necessary surgeries, etc.) which is typically provided through your employer.

    Not many people that I know of bother getting private health insurance if their employer does not provide though. (disclaimer: anecdotal, so I don't get yelled at later)

    Our fees come through taxation, some of which is from income tax and some of it is from the health tax imposed on alcohol and cigarettes.
    Last edited by Tyrianth; 2011-11-08 at 10:01 PM.
    (This signature was removed for violation of the Avatar & Signature Guidelines)

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by IIBlackmagikII View Post
    Most drugs have 10 years remaining on their patent by the time they are deemed marketable, and that's with these companies committing to continue Phase-IV clinical trials (post-marketing surveillance on their drug, which could lead to damning evidence and make the FDA reverse the drug's marketability). Claiming that 25% of all clinical trials are funded by the government is an outrageous exaggeration; only the claim that 42-48% of R&D is paid for by the government is more outrageous. The government, if anything, is the reason why pharmaceutical companies have to spend as much as they do over such a long period of time, although it is for the protection of future patients on the drug.

    Patent protections are the only reason why any company would spend this time and effort on a drug. If they did not exist, it would not be a profitable business, period.
    http://www.biomet.com/corporate/ceoB....cfm?postID=62

    Industry funds approximately 75% of clinical trials in the United States2, and 58% of all biomedical research.3
    Sameer S, Chopra AM, "Industry Funding of Clinical Trials: Benefit or Bias?" JAMA, July 2, 2003.
    Dorsey ER, et al., "Funding of U.S. Biomedical Research, 2003-2008," JAMA, January 13, 2010.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    If you don't have any insurance and drink yourself to death, you suffer - the costs aren't socialized on the rest of society. This is where personal responsibility comes in.
    Seriously? If you get alcohol poisoning and your sister or mother or wife or whoever calls the ambulance to save your life, who foots the bill? You? Hahaha. As Mr. Newt said, personal responsibility means insuring yourself so that the rest of society doesn't have to pay for your health issues.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-08 at 03:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nogard64 View Post
    see thats the slippery slope argument, I always get yelled at when I bring it up because people say that concept isn't real.
    So whats next them "in the name of protecting the population" should we have college fund insurance? Should we have rape insurance? Should we be forcing everyone to insure everything now?

    Its like the cigarette bans, the fast food bans, then its the soda bans, the sugar and sweet bans, the meat ban, the donut ban.

    be careful of what you think its ok for TODAY because you may not like what happens tomorrow.
    ??

    None of what you mentioned is banned. Next I suppose we should be careful about letting gays get married because they'll force you to be gay.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Pert View Post
    What if I were to tell you that I do not support a universal health-care mandate nor our level of military involvement? Obviously degree of military is necessary for any nation, but I concede that we in the US have far surpassed what is needed.
    Please post your credentials so we can all see that you are qualified to make this judgement.

    What I expect to see is your level of security clearance; your job position as it is directly related to national security; if you are in the military, what high level rank do you hold or have held that would give you a clear insight on the needs of what the US needs as a military strength.

  15. #95
    I still find it incredilous that a national heathcare system can be seen as a negative thing. Everyone has the right to the access of health services, it's one of the services that should be guaranteed to every person in the world (just like Education should be).

    The fact is we all live within a particular society, and as a society we have obligations and responsibilities. One of those is to provide healthcare for the members of it's society. It's not a valid argument to stipulate that I as an individual don't want health care so I shouldn't have to pay for it. Fact is you will benefit from other society provided services, be it Education, public infastructure, all the things your taxes pay for. You don't get to pick and choose which obligations you wish to pay for based on the fact you will use them, you're a member of a society and your society requires a range of services in order to function. Take some responsibility and think beyond just yourself for a change.

    I wonder what type of world we live in when people feel they have to get themselves incarcerated in order to receive adquete health services. Something is obviously broken when individuals resort to such extreme measures.

    There is nothing wrong with national healthcare, I think America in particular has become too capitalist. While socialism in it's extreme doesn't work the same can be said for extreme capitalism. Fact is we have Governments to balance out the problems with greed driven economies, and one of the important roles is to provde services like healthcare.

  16. #96
    and that is the root of what is wrong with country now, its like WOW, once you spoil the weak and foster people to not take personal responsibility, it makes the whole society weaker, because the rest of us has to carry and make up for their impotence, already we live in a nation 50% of the population doesn't pay taxes anymore, and its a vicious cycle, people who are dependent on the state just asks for more and more help, more and more assistance until eventually the whole system can not sustain the parasites and the country collapses, this is the direction we are headed.

    Go watch Idiocracy go look at the OWS protesters, not a single coherent thought to come out of their brains, just completely brain fried from all the drug abuse, I think the only thing they are good for, the only thing they can accomplish in this world in their lifetime is is to take up space.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    Please post your credentials so we can all see that you are qualified to make this judgement.

    What I expect to see is your level of security clearance; your job position as it is directly related to national security; if you are in the military, what high level rank do you hold or have held that would give you a clear insight on the needs of what the US needs as a military strength.
    Can I see your credentials so I can verify that YOU are qualified to shoot down his opinion?

  18. #98
    Bloodsail Admiral stabetha's Avatar
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    stop calling the "obamacare" health reform bill universal health care it is not it's a bill that forces people to by health insurance while also making the price of said health insurance rise drastically

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Seriously? If you get alcohol poisoning and your sister or mother or wife or whoever calls the ambulance to save your life, who foots the bill? You? Hahaha. As Mr. Newt said, personal responsibility means insuring yourself so that the rest of society doesn't have to pay for your health issues.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-08 at 03:58 PM ----------



    ??

    None of what you mentioned is banned. Next I suppose we should be careful about letting gays get married because they'll force you to be gay.
    have you ever walked down a sidewalk in Bevery hills smoking? it's banned. ever give your kids Mc D's for school lunch? banned. hell, give them a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.. thats banned too! wake up friend.... obamacare FTL

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Seriously? If you get alcohol poisoning and your sister or mother or wife or whoever calls the ambulance to save your life, who foots the bill? You? Hahaha. As Mr. Newt said, personal responsibility means insuring yourself so that the rest of society doesn't have to pay for your health issues.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-08 at 03:58 PM ----------



    ??

    None of what you mentioned is banned. Next I suppose we should be careful about letting gays get married because they'll force you to be gay.
    please please pay attention to the news, especially in California and most schools, maybe I need to explain the slippery slope concept to you further, your on the slope right now and this is you yelling you will never hit the bottom, trust me there will be a bottom even if you can't see it yet.

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