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  1. #1

    No Character Progression Beyond Lvl.80?

    I was excited about this game for a while now, but never really got around to doing any serious research. I had some time on my hands tonight and looked around. There is 1 issue I have with the game, or perhaps just simply didn't get the idea.

    From what I understand upon reaching level 80 all players will achieve a maximum (Skill>Gear) level of gear relatively quickly. This can be both a good thing and a bad thing in my opinion. What exactly will keep me playing? The whole point of MMO's to me is character progression.
    If by the time I hit 80, and play for a week or two I will be at the peak of gear/power what more is there to achieve? Sure, you can improve your actual skill, but in reality if you are an experienced MMO player you will get the basics down while your leveling, and it will take you a week at most to get used to all the combat innovations GW2 brings. After that the skill growth in my experience is VERY slow. Example WoW Arena - It will take an average player from 2 weeks to a month to reach a rating of 2200, but to reach (reliably) a rating of 2800 can take years. May not be the best example, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

    Let's use WoW as an example again, by playing the game to improve your actual character (get equipment etc.) you also inevitably get more experienced at the game. I just don't understand what reason I have to do dungeon X over dungeon Y? Or do any dungeon at all after I have already seen it? I guess there will be "cosmetic" drops but is that it? So far GW2 hasn't dissapointed so I'm sure I've missed something here. What was it?

    PS: Sorry if I rambled, English is far from being my first language and i'm very tired ^^

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Kaneiac's Avatar
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    Is fun not enough?
    Hey, remember when I dropped my keys and you thought the phone was ringing?

  3. #3
    horizontal progression, not vertical

  4. #4
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    Is fun not enough?
    My sentiments exactly.

  5. #5
    All content is relative. Even if you hit 80, you can go back into a 20-30 zone, be down-ranked, and stuff should at least be relatively challenging to you.

    Guild Wars 2 =/= World of Warcraft in the "end game" sense.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaneiac View Post
    Is fun not enough?
    It's enough for the first 2 months. But without any immediate goals (carrot on a stick) I don't think it will last very long.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-09 at 08:19 AM ----------

    I guess I didn't misunderstand then, there really is no character progression beyond skill. Oh well, I will still enjoy the game.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PivotDream View Post
    It's enough for the first 2 months. But without any immediate goals (carrot on a stick) I don't think it will last very long.[COLOR="red"]
    Guild Wars is still around and it has the same philosophy that Guild Wars 2 will have.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Wow needs to keep you grinding away on raids and gear so you keep paying your subscription ever month.
    ArenaNet on the other hand has said that GW2 is designed so that you can play as much or as little as you want, and even put the game down, not play for months and come back and not be penalised.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PivotDream View Post
    It's enough for the first 2 months. But without any immediate goals (carrot on a stick) I don't think it will last very long.
    Then I think that's the player at fault, not the game.

    The will not get anywhere near the skillcap just by leveling, if your 'character progression' has halted, that probably means you're not pushing yourself. Unless you're in Paragon or one of the top arena teams, you're not really 'done' learning how to be better. If you're suggesting that you should keep 'progressing' without being better at the game, that's possible in some sense with achievements, you can still keep racking up those battleground wins, hks and currency for gear, but it'll be slow - and that seems reasonable, do you expect to progress at the same rate as a good player by putting less effort in? You get in as much as you put out.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Then I think that's the player at fault, not the game.

    The will not get anywhere near the skillcap just by leveling, if your 'character progression' has halted, that probably means you're not pushing yourself. Unless you're in Paragon or one of the top arena teams, you're not really 'done' learning how to be better. If you're suggesting that you should keep 'progressing' without being better at the game, that's possible in some sense with achievements, you can still keep racking up those battleground wins, hks and currency for gear, but it'll be slow - and that seems reasonable, do you expect to progress at the same rate as a good player by putting less effort in? You get in as much as you put out.
    Not at all. I didn't say that. All I mean is that improving your actual skill as a player takes longer the better you are. (WoW) A player who has just started competitive PVP a few months ago will progress at a much faster rate than a 6 time Gladiator. And I agree, If GW2 can keep me playing and excited without dangling shiny loot in front of my nose then I can ask for nothing more. In fact i'd prefer it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    horizontal progression, not vertical
    wonder if there was some naughty ideas implied here but i loled

    Quote Originally Posted by PivotDream View Post
    I guess I didn't misunderstand then, there really is no character progression beyond skill. Oh well, I will still enjoy the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Guild Wars is still around and it has the same philosophy that Guild Wars 2 will have.
    as he said, GW1 already uses that model and well, character progression could be about getting better abilities (by "capturing" them on minion bosses or buying them) and have an overall better build.

    some weapons were also sought after by min-max-ers because the secondary stats (xx% chance of halved cd on some abilities, +15% damage when health above 50%, etc) synergized well with some of their builds and the said weapon whole stats could not be recreated using upgrades extracted from other items.

  12. #12
    I share the same concern as the OP and the conclusion I have come to is that GW2 is simply not trying to be WoW, something many players seem to think it should be. I think GW2 is going to attract a lot of PvP players, and that side of the game definitely has the potential to keep people busy at end game for a long time. I know I did almost nothing but PvP in WoW the last 2 years before I quit.

    PvE re-playablity does seems a little low tbh. Even if these 'elite events' are fun and challenging, the incentive to to do them for the gear drops is not really there because there is no higher-tier content were that gear would be useful. Cosmetic gear changes may appeal to some players, for me thats not really enough incentive.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    PvE re-playablity does seems a little low tbh.
    you do realize that in terms of replayability, wow is just so much worse... or do you?

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
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    I still don't understand how "It's fun" can't be the incentive to do PvE content. Games like Starcraft, Arcade Fighers, and others have been doing it for years now. You don't need a carrot on a stick if playing the game is genuinely fun to do.

    Story can be a good incentive as well. The personal story and story versions of dungeons are good on that front.
    "Questions are for those seeking answers. Those who have answers are those who have asked questions." -Mike R. (Malthurius)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    PvE re-playablity does seems a little low tbh. Even if these 'elite events' are fun and challenging, the incentive to to do them for the gear drops is not really there because there is no higher-tier content were that gear would be useful. Cosmetic gear changes may appeal to some players, for me thats not really enough incentive.
    It may not be only cosmetic, just not that every new tier the Ilvl goes up and your old gear must be replaced entirely. You may find, for instance, new weapons which have the same damage (max level 80 damage), but with different stats. For instance, lifesteal on hit, double adrenaline etc.
    Or new marks or something, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark...e_component%29 .

    Its really impossible to tell how endgame in Gw2 will turn out to be. In my opion, just play the game and then judge (PvE) endgame when you are level 80 and bored. Because Arenanet might change and add stuff while we're all leveling/ doing the endgame for the first time.

    Also, its a game. Have fun.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sacrypheyes View Post
    you do realize that in terms of replayability, wow is just so much worse... or do you?
    As much as people want to hate on the 'endless grind' aspect of WoW, it is that very aspect that has allowed it to be so popular for so long. Take raiding out of WoW and the game would have died years ago.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    As much as people want to hate on the 'endless grind' aspect of WoW, it is that very aspect that has allowed it to be so popular for so long. Take raiding out of WoW and the game would have died years ago.
    Most people didn't raid during Vanilla that I knew of. Most people did though however grind reputations to sell the Fire Resist gear to any willing raider able to dish out the gold. Most people I knew hung out either RPing (real RP, none of this ERP sh*t) or doing Battlegrounds (mostly AV).

    But yeah, I do enjoy WoW for what's it worth. I will enjoy GW2 too when it comes out I'm pretty sure, for what it's worth. Progression or not.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    As much as people want to hate on the 'endless grind' aspect of WoW, it is that very aspect that has allowed it to be so popular for so long. Take raiding out of WoW and the game would have died years ago.
    i'm not even talking about that.

    wether it's dungeons or raids, the number of them you have access to and which represent a decent challenge (understand : not some faceroll boring aoe fiest) at any moment is just lower than GW2 on the whole because GW2 will use the sidekick system while wow doesn't have anything of the like (well, unless bliz decides to put a "heroic" version of an outdated dungeon in order to label it as "content" included in some patch).

    did you go back in any old dungeon/raid recently with your 85 main? and i mean old as in molten core old or even ICC? i'd guess not.

    that's what i define as poor (non-existant?) replayability.

    edit : and yeah, i'm pretty aware wow wasn't designed with that in mind at that time, though i'm sure a lot of us would have welcomed any kind of sidekick system.
    Last edited by sacrypheyes; 2011-11-09 at 09:29 AM.

  19. #19
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    I Dont think gear will just be given to you as easily as you think, the game is coming out with alot of dungeons there difficulty will determine the time it takes to max out in gear, if like me you are hoping them to have a brutally hard difficulty level, then reaching a max gear level would be far from easy, but as i say to ever question fearing what could go wrong for this game, wait till beta

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PivotDream View Post
    It's enough for the first 2 months. But without any immediate goals (carrot on a stick) I don't think it will last very long.[COLOR="red"]

    .
    This design philosophy is so very wrong, and sadly so omnipresent.
    Here.

    http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box
    A man chooses, a Slave obeys. OBEY! - Andrew Ryan, Bioshock

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