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  1. #21
    But we think PoH feels really different from say Holy Nova, CoH etc. and it's a fun spell so we don't think it needs to be changed.


  2. #22
    They mean that their cooldowns and other regen mechanics (Masochism) will sustain their blue bar, Arlee. It also has the added impact of not making Arcane Mages scale ridiculously off of mana pool (seeing as that's EVERYTHING that they are right now).

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Prayer of Healing only affects people from 1 raid group. So the priest has to make the raid groups accordingly. In your eyes, is this a fun design as it adds a particularism to the Priest class or is there a plan to modify it?

    From a pointy-headed designer standpoint, it isn't ideal because the party within the raid doesn't mean anything in the game world (compared to say targeting an area). But we think PoH feels really different from say Holy Nova, CoH etc. and it's a fun spell so we don't think it needs to be changed.
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  3. #23
    I thought it was a perfectly valid question and one that wasn't really addressed. Having no orb proc for a long time at the start of a fight does affect our dps at the start of the fight, which can be pretty big considering this is the time when all trinkets proc, bloodlust is usually used, pre-pot is in effect, etc. It would be awesome if we could have just one orb at the start of a fight and get ES up - maybe some 10 minute cooldown ability which could be used before a pull.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    But we think PoH feels really different from say Holy Nova, CoH etc. and it's a fun spell so we don't think it needs to be changed.

    Circle of Healing with a cast time and no cooldown isn't really "fun". To be fair, I felt that when Circle didn't have a cooldown, but was party restricted (Prayer was self-group only) in TBC, I loved it.

    But two identical spells, one with a cooldown? Meh.
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  5. #25
    High Overlord Whicker's Avatar
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    That PoH answer is lame... In my 10 man i find myself screaming WAIT like 2-3 times a night RIGHT before a pull because the groups arent setup right and my aoe healing will essentially be useless it really sucks

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Febo View Post
    I thought it was a perfectly valid question and one that wasn't really addressed. Having no orb proc for a long time at the start of a fight does affect our dps at the start of the fight, which can be pretty big considering this is the time when all trinkets proc, bloodlust is usually used, pre-pot is in effect, etc. It would be awesome if we could have just one orb at the start of a fight and get ES up - maybe some 10 minute cooldown ability which could be used before a pull.
    And not having Hot Streak or Divine Purpose proc, or crap returns on Elemental Overload affects their DPS too. Once the fight's going, Empowered Shadows is pretty much passive (not quite, but almost). Orb RNG isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be.

    I mean, currently what else does Shadow actually use RNG for that actually affects something? It's not like we're responding to anything.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    And not having Hot Streak or Divine Purpose proc, or crap returns on Elemental Overload affects their DPS too. Once the fight's going, Empowered Shadows is pretty much passive (not quite, but almost). Orb RNG isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be.

    I mean, currently what else does Shadow actually use RNG for that actually affects something? It's not like we're responding to anything.
    At the levels of haste we currently have.. yes it really is pretty much a constant passive. I mean occasionally you might not get an orb and ES might fall off... but it is really rare for that to happen.

    Kel, I am just mistrustful of them balancing our mana regen abilities correctly to take in account that change. It's just me being a cynic, disregard

  8. #28
    High Overlord Whicker's Avatar
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    What do you guys think of that Spirit Shell? I think it will be a huge bubble on a cast time. Now what do we cast GH or SS lol?

  9. #29
    Pretty sure that empowered shadows is supposed to be pretty much passive and that the RNG element is the varying damage on mind blasts. Waiting for the first orb so we can get a buff which our class is designed around feels awkward to me and I'm pretty sure it isn't the same thing as the examples you gave. Obviously you don't see this as a problem and that's fine, but I know I'm not the only person who feels this way about it.

    It's worth remembering that with 5.0 our haste will basically be reset too.
    Last edited by Febo; 2011-11-09 at 08:17 PM.

  10. #30

    PoH

    Not sure if this will interest somebody but here's what I asked in the class design Q&A regarding PoH.

    TL;DR: they don't intend to change PoH design.


  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Kel, I am just mistrustful of them balancing our mana regen abilities correctly to take in account that change. It's just me being a cynic, disregard
    If you didn't have a Hymn of Hope in your raid going into Tier 11, how much mana did you actually have? You had to Shadow Word: Death on occasion to keep the blue bar up (better alternative than Dispersion), but between Shadowfiend, Archangel, and the occasional (not rotational) Masochism, Shadow didn't really have "mana issues" unless getting Rebirth'd, or a fight that you couldn't Death (Halfus, Cho'gall, heroic Nef).

    If they can keep that level of mana regen valid then, and potentially incorporate the new set bonus into Shadow passively, it will be "set" like that through an entire expansion.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Febo View Post
    Pretty sure that empowered shadows is supposed to be pretty much passive and that the RNG element is the varying damage on mind blasts. Waiting for the first orb so we can get a buff which our class is designed around feels awkward to me and I'm pretty sure it isn't the same thing as the examples you gave. Obviously you don't see this as a problem and that's fine, but I know I'm not the only person who feels this way about it.
    You're not. The huge majority of other classes either have no ramp-up time at all, or can begin their full strength rotation, reliably, in 1-3 gcds. While it's true that it doesn't matter that much in the long run, over the course of a whole fight, it can make a fairly significant impact, especially on fights where bloodlust is blown immediately.

    I don't mind the RNG of shadow orbs. What I mind is how that RNG is intrinsically linked to our ability to do our full strength DPS.

    I feel like they should just roll ES into our dots and be done with it. The whole system is complicated and unintuitive, and it makes me long for the simplicity other classes enjoy. No, I don't want to PLAY another class, what I want is to be a shadowpriest with a good resource system.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Annesh View Post
    You're not. The huge majority of other classes either have no ramp-up time at all, or can begin their full strength rotation, reliably, in 1-3 gcds. While it's true that it doesn't matter that much in the long run, over the course of a whole fight, it can make a fairly significant impact, especially on fights where bloodlust is blown immediately.
    Retribution, Rogues, Feral Druids, and Enhancement Shaman would all like to say hi.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-09 at 01:26 PM ----------

    Also currently rolling the questions into the OP.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Retribution, Rogues, Feral Druids, and Enhancement Shaman would all like to say hi.
    I didn't say ALL other classes. I would say there's a problem when RNG so heavily dictates dps no matter what the class.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Annesh View Post
    I didn't say ALL other classes. I would say there's a problem when RNG so heavily dictates dps no matter what the class.
    You said the majority.

    I'm seeing 5 classes counting Priests that all suffer from wind-up mechanics, and harshly from the "Bloodlust on pull" factor. I could also add that a Balance Druid doesn't Eclipse in 1-3 GCDs either, which was implied.

    "so heavily dictates dps" is quite a subjective term, and in shadow's case it's really not there at all. Considering it will be tied to both Archangel and Mind Blast in 5.0, this could easily change, but as it stands in its current iteration it's just not.
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  16. #36
    Tks for moving my thread. I don't mind if you delete the other flagged moved btw.

    While I kind of aggre with the answer about PoH (that it feels different), the problem I see is that there's an incentive to use addons to track how many people you'll hit (hitting 3 or 5 people is a huge difference).

  17. #37
    Seeing as you're being pedantic, some of those are specs and not classes. Anyway a random element to dps is fine, but for me a random length ramp up which can sometimes even go past the first set of dots wearing off makes for frustrating gameplay - this is the point the guy was making in the Q&A and it wasn't addressed.

  18. #38
    The Patient Casseille's Avatar
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    About Warlocks:
    A: We feel internally that Affliction is one of the best feeling specs in the game. While not planning any major changes, internally, we've implemented a system that allows you to refresh Corruption, UA or Bane of Agony up to 6 seconds before the DoT falls off without clipping any ticks.
    Can we poke around to see if Shadow gets a similar treatment for its DoTs?

  19. #39
    Well we have always had some ramp up time, we used always have to get out misery stack up before we could be at full power before cata.

    The whole thing about ramp up time due to shadow orbs was addressed at blizzcon and a bit reiterated here. Orbs are going to be for the ability to cast MB. Evangelism is definitely changing, and I don't think it is too much of an assumption to say that ES is probably going to be changed as well. I doubt they have all the specifics worked out yet though.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-09 at 03:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
    Can we poke around to see if Shadow gets a similar treatment for its DoTs?
    What do you mean? Already can't clip our DoTs.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    You said the majority.

    I'm seeing 5 classes counting Priests that all suffer from wind-up mechanics, and harshly from the "Bloodlust on pull" factor. I could also add that a Balance Druid doesn't Eclipse in 1-3 GCDs either, which was implied.

    "so heavily dictates dps" is quite a subjective term, and in shadow's case it's really not there at all. Considering it will be tied to both Archangel and Mind Blast in 5.0, this could easily change, but as it stands in its current iteration it's just not.
    Our perspectives are different. My perspective is that it's a problem and should be fixed, regardless of whether or not other classes suffer from similar issues. I said that the majority of other classes don't suffer like we do and I was correct. The fact that a minority of classes are in the same boat is no reason to reject the point.

    And note that I'm talking about "RNG dictating DPS to a heavy degree in the first minute of a fight" and not just ramp-up time, which is the only issue of Feral AFAIK. I'm also not sure why you mentioned Enhance; I don't think it suffers from RNG or ramp-up, just poor scaling and a complicated, dynamic priority-based rotation. Also note that I fully support other classes in their efforts to get their issues fixed.

    But I get the feeling (please don't think I'm attacking or being hostile, actually my intention is that if I'm right we can happily stop arguing and no hard feelings) that as a healing priest you aren't that interested in the problems of your dark cousins, and if that's even a little bit true then there's not really any reason for us to argue about it because you just don't take it as seriously as I do, hence why you don't see it as a problem.

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