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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Atomisk View Post
    Moonkin goes bear for an AoE silence, same as resto, and for a charge stun. Moon and resto go cat to remove all DoTs and activate vanish. cat goes resto to heal. any questions?
    i think the biggest questionable talent here is heart of the wild. at which point do you want a resto or boomkin to be able to melee?
    it works extremely well the other way though with feral -> tranq

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Exactly, Crovyn is right, i'm hearin g a lot of outdated arguments on this issue, which may have been valid 4 years ago, in the old game system, but not now at all.

    This is certainly not going to turn ferals or boomkins into healers, if it were, i'd have seen it, i was championing the cause for viable balance and feral raiding specs way back from patch 1.3 when all most people aside from most druids wanted druids for was for heals..and that was because no one wanted to play priests at the time, the principal healing class. As i said game has come a long way since then.
    I've been feral since I started playing as well, 2 months after original release and I DO see this taking us back to the old days of "You have heals, use them". They are de-hybridizing the feral spec that has worked decently for years (I wont say flawlessly but it was decent), and are instead promoting the use of heals. CD or no, Heart of the Wild in its current form will become a must have ability and ferals will be expected to use it.

    The strength of role shifting in vanilla was a pvp thing, not a pve one. I occasionally healed in vanilla and I remember how much it sucked to heal as feral. Always cancelling spells mid cast, not being able to stack HoTs. Mind you I was primarily a tank so I raided as full feral as opposed to the Nature's Swiftness/Feral spec that was more common then. The greatest strength in role shifting Druids ever had was feral tanks/dps and they are killing that in MoP.

    If this talent buffed your LotP or did something to allow one of your feral abilities to heal for small amount (on cd of course), I would have no problem with it. I did not roll my druid to heal though. I want to spec into a clear role, play that role, and be competitive at that role. I dont mind brezzing the dead healer, I dont want to take over his job at the expense of my own.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-10 at 03:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Atomisk View Post
    No. They will bring pures on par with abilities that raids need. They said this in the QA. So just expect pures to soon have more raid utility.
    We've already seen an example of how they're helping the pures stay viable, Rogues getting some sort of talent that allows them to perform at range. What other melee is getting something similar? None most likely, why? Because all other melee are hybrids. This is why I'm concerned about them regressing here. Pures are getting quality of life improvements while hybrids are getting support jobs that take away from dps time.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    If this talent buffed your LotP or did something to allow one of your feral abilities to heal for small amount (on cd of course), I would have no problem with it. I did not roll my druid to heal though. I want to spec into a clear role, play that role, and be competitive at that role. I dont mind brezzing the dead healer, I dont want to take over his job at the expense of my own.
    You may have a point there, it is the sort of thing that htey would be watching raids to see how it is utilised then make a decision, if players tart forcing ferals and booms to pop Tranq on cooldown or HoW on cooldown all the time and they hate it, then they may add something like that to it, making it also buff your role as well. but then if they did, you wouldn't use it at all except to accelerate your role.

    What i'm thinking is, they're removing the hybrid tax altogether, however, 20% of the encounters you may need a smart feral/moonkin to spot heal, well overall the pures will be happy cos they did the most damage, but the ferals/moonkins won't be sad because if they had dps'd on those occasions they could easily have topped based on skill.

    Or, it could be simply what it was meant for, a great form of extra utility on some very tight spots, an option you can take or drop. These days, raiders do not behave like they did in the past, fearing that you'd be forced to take the talent and use it is unfair. THe encounters are normally balanced on you having sufficient healrs to do their job, not needing help from you switching a role. The intention of the feature, is for times when that goes wrong, healer dies in the last 30 secs of the fight or OOMS badly you can step in fo rthe duration of HotW or MS. Tank goes down, you moonkin or feral can go bear barely for 30secs, one tank no longer needed? you Guardian can pop it and melee or nuke. Healing no longer necessary? you resto can pop it and nuke or melee.

    In most situations though, the run won't need you too, becuase the fight went smooth enough and the people on the job did the right thing, but in case they didnt you got some options. you will get many many kills when you didn't have to step in, and ultiamtely the choice would be up to you.

    I see nothing but good coming from this, And i'm sure the intention is not to pidgeo-hole Balance and ferals into healing roles again. It's really to make you feel more like a druid, hopefully you'll find it fun to switch to a role and do something that actually ended up saving the raid

  4. #24
    I love these changes. Maybe it's because I've always valued utility and teamwork over my personal meter whoring, but the ability to pop Heart and step in for a dead healer/tank for 45s to save the day is Druidism at its finest IMO.

  5. #25
    I am, in fact, so happy about this change, that Stevoman's post is going into my sig.

    Ok, now to go to work and try and be normal
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevoman View Post
    I love these changes. Maybe it's because I've always valued utility and teamwork over my personal meter whoring, but the ability to pop Heart and step in for a dead healer/tank for 45s to save the day is Druidism at its finest IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDragon
    Technically dragon eating human is not cannibalism. It is misfortunate inconvinience.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    If this talent buffed your LotP or did something to allow one of your feral abilities to heal for small amount (on cd of course)
    This would be very good. If I understand it correctly, Disc will be able to heal by dealing damage again, and the Monk's Mistweaver spec will have something similar for melee combat. Why not let e.g. Shreds during Heart of the Wild toss out AoE or smart heals to nearby allies? And that's just a very simple idea, the actual mechanic could be more demanding.

    If anything, gaining "good healing abilities" even on a CD will make us OP in PvP again, and unless they finally manage to separate PvE from PvP more, this will lead to PvE nerfs.

  7. #27
    Elemental Lord Duilliath's Avatar
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    Feel to suggest it. It's not like the current version is set in stone. I for one greatly appreciate that they're going back to try and make us Druids, rather than 'Cats' or 'Bears'. In fact, that could've been taken literally from the feedback I left in the class Feedback thread...

    Will have to see how it pans out, but the basic intent is great.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    What hybrids are you talking about?

    IMO, nothing will change in MoP, we will get no new decent hybrid combinations and utility.
    Check the new Heart of the Wild, because you obviously didn't.

    They also said that we automagically get 50% of AP as SP for feral and guardian, and 50% SP as AP for balance and restoration.
    Last edited by huth; 2011-11-11 at 12:54 PM.

  9. #29
    I love what they are doing, bring back the hybrids!!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Check the new Heart of the Wild, because you obviously didn't.

    They also said that we automagically get 50% of AP as SP for feral and guardian, and 50% SP as AP for balance and restoration.
    Yes, yes. We all know that.

    But you know what "hybrid" means? Obviously its not one talent(that most likely you will not even take because you will need to choose another talents for your main spec) thats gives you one one ability lasting 45 seconds with 6 minutes cooldown.

    Good example of true hybrid - that is almost equally good in both specs is feral druid. With proper spec he can take all the abilities needed for tanking, while keeping most of the abilities needed for dps. Its possible to tank heroic raid bosses in hybrid spec. As well as do decent dps in hybrid dps spec. And you can switch from tanking to dps and back by pressing just one button.

    There were good examples of pvp hybrids in wotlk, like restoration-elemental shamans, but with new telent tree they are absolutely non-viable.

    I understand that talent tree is in pre-alpha version. But in current state its just non-usable. Both restoration and boomkin druids will be really bad tanks, because 45 seconds tank that got 50% of normal tanking stats will not survive even for 45 seconds.
    As for feral - it seems that you will not get additional armor without taking guardian talent tree, and the only way for feral dps to tank will be to take heart of the wild talent and activate it for 45 seconds. Goodbye feral hybrid!

    So we are not getting new interesting hybrid combinations, we are losing our only hybrid spec.
    And all we get instead - is one 6-minutes cooldown that makes you something like hybrid for 45 seconds, but you will be much worse than previous content hybrid. And you have to take special talent to even have the opportunity to become hybrid! Oh, come on, they think that this will make us feel like "true hybrids"?

    But ofc its just pre-alpha, so its too early to talk about it.
    If there will be no 45 seconds timer, or if you will be able to use this ability as often as you want, it can be not so bad.

  11. #31
    i've come to the conclusion traen, some people like change, some people really don't, some people embrace different approaches, some people don't. Some people fear this because they feel if it's not broken don't fix it to mean no need to change it.

    Good thing for some, you don't have to use Heart of the Wild if you don't believe in the things you can make use of, if you do, great, you have a new dimension to tuggle with, or for those of us who've played this from the start, more a return of the original purpose, but in a way that works so well with the current system, that doesn't detract from it or change it to something entirely diffeent, but enhances it and actually makes it more like it was meant to.

    now i hope they go and brainstorm some really remarkable and interesting dynamics to the balance spec especially the Chosen of Elune form. I really like every idea for the druids so far, and i would only advocate more interesting features, not less.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    But you know what "hybrid" means? Obviously its not one talent(that most likely you will not even take because you will need to choose another talents for your main spec) thats gives you one one ability lasting 45 seconds with 6 minutes cooldown.
    Yes, i know what it means. And i also know why it would never work in WoW. This is the closest they can safely give us.
    Have you even checked the alternatives? All of them deal with shapeshifting and making it easier for you to deal with stuff that requires you to leave your primary form.
    I understand that talent tree is in pre-alpha version. But in current state its just non-usable. Both restoration and boomkin druids will be really bad tanks, because 45 seconds tank that got 50% of normal tanking stats will not survive even for 45 seconds.
    It's an emergency tank. It's okay if he can't bring 100%. Besides, don't get to hung up on the numbers, those are very likely to change. If you can't use it for the job it's supposed to do, they'll change it so you can.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's an emergency tank. It's okay if he can't bring 100%. Besides, don't get to hung up on the numbers, those are very likely to change. If you can't use it for the job it's supposed to do, they'll change it so you can.
    But why would the job need to be done? Are they saying that if you take a Druid healer, your tanks WILL die but thats ok because the healer can tank for 45 seconds? Under what conditions will the healer be tanking?
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    i've come to the conclusion traen, some people like change, some people really don't, some people embrace different approaches, some people don't. Some people fear this because they feel if it's not broken don't fix it to mean no need to change it.
    Its not as simple as that. Do you like changes? Ok. What about nerfs? Do you like nerfs? Nerf is a change.
    In this situation we were told that we will be better hybrids. But instead they are going to remove our hybridness. They are removing the only hybrid from game.
    Most people don't care. Because they are not ferals. They are not losing anything. Some of them even like this change. Like I like warrior dps nerf for example.

    Good thing for some, you don't have to use Heart of the Wild if you don't believe in the things you can make use of,
    Nope. You can't ignore your ability. For example no matter if you like Rake or not, you have to use it to do decent dps. You can't choose what abilities to use and what not to use, you must use all possible abilities that are available for you if it will help to down boss.

    Actually I even like this ability. And no doubt I will use it. But it was better to add it without removing feral tanking from game.
    Last edited by traen; 2011-11-11 at 09:17 PM.

  15. #35
    Elemental Lord Duilliath's Avatar
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    They are removing the only hybrid from game.
    That'd be enhancement shaman. And I have no clue what they're thinking of when it comes to their talents.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Its not as simple as that. Do you like changes? Ok. What about nerfs? Do you like nerfs? Nerf is a change.
    In this situation we were told that we will be better hybrids. But instead they are going to remove our hybridness. They are removing the only hybrid from game.
    Most people don't care. Because they are not ferals. They are not losing anything. Some of them even like this change. Like I like warrior dps nerf for example.


    Nope. You can't ignore your ability. For example no matter if you like Rake or not, you have to use it to do decent dps. You can't choose what abilities to use and what not to use, you must use all possible abilities that are available for you if it will help to down boss.

    Actually I even like this ability. And no doubt I will use it. But it was better to add it without removing feral tanking from game.
    Removing feral tanking from the game? WTF are you talking about?

    I have a feral/feral Druid that I play as my main. I LOVE this change. Right now, I tank mostly, but DPS often. My specs are a pure tanking spec and a DPS spec with some of the tanking survivability talents. I do competitive DPS in this spec, but can (and do) also shift to bear and tank raid bosses for extended lengths of time while wearing DPS gear. I was able to tank all Firelands normal bosses in this spec/gear successfully pre-nerf, so when we were raiding we always had a good DPS that could instantly turn into a viable MAIN TANK in the middle of a fight if something went wrong.

    This ability was too powerful. There is no other class or spec that can do anything that even resembles this, and I completely understand why they're doing away with out ability to do this. If we could do it, but for only a short amount of time and on a cooldown, then yes, I would say that that's fair, and it maintains the Druidness (doing something outside my current role to save a raid) that first attracted me to the class. Hybridity without overpoweredness.

    Hey look, that's exactly what they're doing. Neat.

  17. #37
    do people not get sarcasm these days? judging by some mmo resposnses I've seen, we're taking a lot of this far too seriously for it.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    But why would the job need to be done? Are they saying that if you take a Druid healer, your tanks WILL die but thats ok because the healer can tank for 45 seconds? Under what conditions will the healer be tanking?
    No, the healer obviously can't, but the cat or the 'kin can for those last few seconds till the boss is dead or somebody else can take over. You know, for those emergencies where you need someone who's more robust than your regular DPS or healer to taunt that damn thing NOW and hold him for a short time.

    And why? Because sometimes shit happens. Like the second tank losing his connection and not being able to taunt in time.

  19. #39
    I don't think he addressed one of the key issues: hybrid classes have more utility and are therefore preferable to pure dps. If 1 class can adapt to all roles on the fly (heal during damage intense phase, top DPS meters during a burn) they will be selected over a class with fewer options. The scenario he highlighted is exactly why a hybrid tax existed, especially in the case of druids who have 4 distinct roles.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, the healer obviously can't, but the cat or the 'kin can for those last few seconds till the boss is dead or somebody else can take over. You know, for those emergencies where you need someone who's more robust than your regular DPS or healer to taunt that damn thing NOW and hold him for a short time.

    And why? Because sometimes shit happens. Like the second tank losing his connection and not being able to taunt in time.
    Right, my point is that Feral and perhaps Balance may be "hybrid". Guardian and Restoration wont be.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

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