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  1. #81
    Legendary! Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Event Horizon View Post
    Not trolling, but how is what you've described any different from WoW? WoW has a content cap in terms of progression which has to be increased through patches, you could burn through the content in 6 months (with some serious dedication) and then you're stuck with nothing to do as well.

    The major difference (in the context of this discussion) I can see is that once you hit max level and doing the end game content, instead of sitting around in org waiting to raid you can go out and explore taking part in dynamic events
    Thats my point. Why go out and do things if im not getting rewarded for it? I wont be coming back to this thread probably, because Ive made my point and theres nothing left for me to say.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Thats my point. Why go out and do things if im not getting rewarded for it? I wont be coming back to this thread probably, because Ive made my point and theres nothing left for me to say.
    There is still reward in vanity items, achievements and the storylines. How much motivation that actually is to you is personal, granted.

    Just saying.

  3. #83
    From all the trolling and s**t on this threat I see 2 sides.

    The people talking about Playing GW2 as a side game and the others who are gonna focus on it as their main game.

    You guys don't get that we shouldn't be arguing about this since we havn't even tried the game yet. By the time it's released and you play it, you can stay and play GW2 forevaah if you like it or go back to WoW and play GW2 as a side game. Why do people have to force their opinions onto people?
    Yes GW2 Looks great, and I do look forward to it. But I don't wanna waste my time discussing a subject we wont know shit about until the release date.

  4. #84
    The lack of a loot treadmill is by no means a downside. It's one of the best things about it, including downlevelling you in lower areas so you don't miss content and then only be able to do it by steamrolling it. Steamrolling is not fun.

    I'd love it if WoW was able to do that.

  5. #85
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Thats my point. Why go out and do things if im not getting rewarded for it? I wont be coming back to this thread probably, because Ive made my point and theres nothing left for me to say.
    Since you might not come back, this might be pointless.
    First, like Fencers said, there are some rewards in doing them. Vanity items etc.
    Secondly. You'd go out and do them because you might find the gameplay itself highly enoyable and rewarding in itself. Thus not need a classic "reward" for doing it. This second point is fully speculative and might prove false yet still very valid. Why do you think people kept playing CS for years? Not like that game had any progression and there existed people who played CS the same way some play MMOs.
    Because they found the experience itself rewarding.

    Hopefully A-net will succeed with that.

  6. #86
    even without rewards, challenge is also something that pushes many of us to play. a game without any challenge and requires no effort to beat gets boring fast enough.

    fortunately, no need for a gear treadmill to get that.

  7. #87
    Let me outline some things here.

    Progression -

    So people are worried about progression and not having anything to do? When people think of progression they're typically conditioned to think about gear based progression (vertical advancement) of ever increasing stats. Right around, at, or after the level cap you will have obtained the very highest stat based gear you can find and you think well that's it right? Wrong. Like GW1 you don't just obtain a single piece of gear that is one size fits all, you're going to need to obtain gear sets and upgrade components for said gear sets for every single possible scenario that you might come across. You wouldn't use components that had +5% to giant slaying if you were killing demons now would you? Besides the statistical gear you're going to obtain, you'll also likely want to obtain gear that looks awesome because we all know deep down that's why people obtain gear. No one looks at someone and says “OMFG THIS GUY HAS +200 strength!” No, they look at the gear and think “Wow, he looks awesome, I wonder where he got that!?” How awesome gear looks goes hand in hand with where you obtained it and what it took to obtain it.

    Next you have Traits that you're going to obtain for your class. Currently Traits are undergoing a bit of a redesign, but here's what we do know about how they're acquired. If you didn't know Traits are one way to differentiate one player of one class from another. They're meant to be used to compliment your builds. You'll be able to slot them in the different Trait lines and change them out at anytime out of combat for free. So as I said Traits are going under a bit of a redesign but as far as acquiring them we do know that you'll have to traverse the world to obtain them and each class obtains them in different ways. A Warrior might train, eat, and battle to obtain theirs, Necromancers might take the hearts from their enemies, Elementalists might seek arcane tomes, etc. So you're going to want to acquire all of these if you want to be as effective as possible.

    Titles/Achievements -

    Like GW1 it's very likely that GW2 will use Titles & Achievements as another way of progressing your character. In GW1 there were Title tracks where as you increased the levels of these tracks you obtained ever increasing ranks of these titles. When you turned on a certain title, it would then buff you with stat increases for killing certain enemy types and the like. Some of these Titles were and still are stupidly difficult to obtain in GW1 and that will carry over to GW2.

    Player skill – Even if you obtain absolutely every single possible statistical upgrade for every single scenario, you will always be able to improve yourself as a player. This is literally a never ending form of progression. With a dynamic combat system that makes you entirely self reliant, cross profession combos, AI that is affected by MANY different variables and isn't built around a system where one guy takes all the damage, dodging, skill shots, weapon swapping, using your skills when appropriate and not because it's off cooldown, and actual team work amongst players, you're never going to be done progressing. That's the beauty of the power plateau, player skill is the number one factor and goes hand in hand with progression without the need of ever increasing numbers.

    Going beyond -

    The scaling, sidekicking, and dynamic events will always insure no content ever becomes irrelevant, even as more content is patched in and even after expansions when they raise the level cap. Even as a new dungeon is put in, all of the other dungeons are just as viable in terms of progressing your character as the new one. You may have obtained your gear set from an older dungeon or any upgrade components you might want, but for your character you will always gain Karma which is a universal currency for the entire game. Even as the level cap is raised and they release a new continent with all new content, all of the content from the base game is just as relevant because of the sidekicking system. All of the old content will still be a challenge, regardless of your level. Essentially ArenaNet found a way to take the premise of the Hard Modes in GW1 and apply them to GW2 and by that I mean making all content releavant regardless of what they release in the future.

    I do hope they put Challenge Missions in from GW1 as that combined with the dynamic combat system would allow for people to prove just how good they are at PvE and be rewarded for it through Titles/Achievements/rare skins, etc.

    Then you have PvP which is being designed by ex-DAOC devs and if you didn't know DAOC is regarded by many as the greatest PvP in MMO history. The 5v5 conquest style PvP is VERY much like an FPS and people have played the same one for more than a decade without tiring. There's even going to be server browsers which is a first for the MMO genre. Then with WvWvW there's even dynamic events and PvE content within that that will facilitate PvP within that as well all across 4 gigantic maps and lasting 2 weeks that will also promote actual server community, a shocking concept these days I know.

    Anyways I've gotten offtrack by now and ultimately the point is ArenaNet is making a game that is fun without all of the bullshit of your everyday MMO. Currently, the MMO genre is the ONLY genre in gaming that can actually dictate when/if you're able to play a game you pay for (PvE in particular). By that I mean if you want to progress in PvE in say WoW, you're raiding and if you're raiding you play X days a week for X hours and that's all you have. GW2 is looking to get rid of that by letting you play exactly what you want, when you want, and with whomever you want without any of the drama all the while still offering you tons to do, challenging content, and new gameplay experiences. And all for no monthly fee. I can't overstate this enough, what they're making is going to change the MMO genre forever and for those who can't see this then they haven't been playing MMOs long enough to know any better.

    This has been really long and I only began to touch on the things that they're doing, this was mainly my post in regards to how people perceive progression.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Thats my point. Why go out and do things if im not getting rewarded for it? I wont be coming back to this thread probably, because Ive made my point and theres nothing left for me to say.
    I don't get why people need to have an increase in stats for it to be classes as a reward.

    Everything in GW1 was visual upgrades and worked fine, GW2 will be the same and will work even better since there'll be a hell of alot more customizing options.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    The lack of a loot treadmill is by no means a downside. It's one of the best things about it, including downlevelling you in lower areas so you don't miss content and then only be able to do it by steamrolling it. Steamrolling is not fun.

    I'd love it if WoW was able to do that.
    sidekicking/downleveling also allows players to play with their friends/others regardless of c-level or gear. so there is less separation in the gameplay.

  10. #90
    Look, I've played WoW for almost 6 years. I was in the game since Vanilla and it was actually really good. Before all the BS they added that took away from what made the game truly great. Does anyone remember doing world pvp before the pvp system was even in place? Raiding as a 40man in Molten Core and being one of the few guilds that could actually defeat Ragnaros or Onyxia? Fighting for world bosses with other guilds and having a really strong community. When battlegrounds were released for the first time it was server vs. server and it was amazing. You got to see the same people every day and compete against them. It bolstered the community even more because it brought on rivalries, heated arguments and some well deserved unity for the server you were on.

    This was before WoW became a complete fast food chain of content. How after a new raiding dungeon is released a few months later they nerf it and a few months after they trivialize it so everyone can do it. Even the truly awful players with down syndrome we all hated to get in groups and carry. It was nice to have loot progression to put you ahead of some others and sure it's an elitist attitude but in the game it gave you recognition.

    If you want to look at PVE progression in GW2 then look at the elder dragons. This excites me because they're actually raising the bar or at least the potential is there. There hasn't been a release of a true elder dragon in the game but the scale of these things is immense, larger than any you've ever seen. That's content I'm excited to see, to capture the magic that WoW once had when it was first out. That Everquest did before WoW. Guild Wars 2 is the first game in a long time where I feel truly excited to be surprised for something new.

    There will be achievements, you'll get new sets of gear that make you stand out. The realm vs. realm vs. realm pvp will bolster the community that WoW has sorely lacked for several years now. Not having to fight over rare spawns anymore, the system itself will do a good job to welcome teamwork. You'll actually be proud to be on a good server and want to help others. Pvp will be fun again and the new 5man dungeons are going to be a real challenge and not something you can just walk over. It will take quite a bit of strategy and offer completely new sets of armor you can't get anywhere else. I'm assuming it will be the same for the elder dragons as well. It's going to take awhile to be able to kill them all.

    It's not the exact same style but also Dynamic Events are going to add an element you haven't experienced anywhere else. I think many that tried to answer the OP lost site of what he was asking and just used the excuse of being fun. There are many different types of players out there, this may or may not be the game for him but if you're like me who loved WoW once you'll understand there's more to this game than you're giving it credit for.

    Just give it time though, it's still far from being done and they have shown nothing about the realm vs. realm vs. realm and high end content with the dragons and I'm sure some other high level bosses to come.

  11. #91
    Legendary! Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Since you might not come back, this might be pointless.
    First, like Fencers said, there are some rewards in doing them. Vanity items etc.
    Secondly. You'd go out and do them because you might find the gameplay itself highly enoyable and rewarding in itself. Thus not need a classic "reward" for doing it. This second point is fully speculative and might prove false yet still very valid. Why do you think people kept playing CS for years? Not like that game had any progression and there existed people who played CS the same way some play MMOs.
    Because they found the experience itself rewarding.

    Hopefully A-net will succeed with that.
    I didn't say i wouldn't enjoy the content, but when i do it a few times there will be no reason for me to do it again because i will get bored with it. When i get bored is when i need the dangling carrot.

    Edit: i came back..... i was bored
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    I didn't say i wouldn't enjoy the content, but when i do it a few times there will be no reason for me to do it again because i will get bored with it. When i get bored is when i need the dangling carrot.

    Edit: i came back..... i was bored
    When you get bored you find a different game to play? Or work on achievements, or explore the world, or work on collecting other sets of gear, or challenge yourself to beat your best time in a dungeon. Without subscriptions, there's no need to force yourself to do something if you're bored of it, while the nature of the game opens opportunities that are either lacking or discouraged in other games.

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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Lannden View Post

    The problem is that if I burn through that in six months I'll be left with nothing in the game. So I'm just going to play it casually and keep my main MMO as WoW.
    And if you burn through WoW in six months, you'll be left with nothing in the game.

    I don't see what you're trying to say.

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  14. #94
    this is for "GEAR TREADMILL STAT PROGRESSION" players:

    you guys have to free your minds of what you "think" an MMO should be and play GW2 for what it is. you guys can not look at GW2 the way you do WoW, things like DEs will compel you to take action as what if you want to craft something but the vendor you need has had his/her town over run or his goods stolen? you go out into the game world and affect change, no more sitting in SW/Ogr waiting for that queue or your raid to start. you could go back and re-visit areas that you missed leveling up or just your favorite spot in game and still find the content challenging. this can be your end game if you just let it, but i fear for everyone wanting instanced raids or stat progression in GW2 because your attitude could make you miss out on something really special and what could end up being a better and more enjoyable kind of end-game.
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by sacrypheyes View Post
    even without rewards, challenge is also something that pushes many of us to play. a game without any challenge and requires no effort to beat gets boring fast enough.

    fortunately, no need for a gear treadmill to get that.
    This. WoW has become so dilluted into nothing more then a gearmill that people forget that at one point the gameplay itself was actually fun and a compelling reason to play. I did heroic dungeons in BC simply because I enjoyed the challenge of them, hopefully things like that exist in GW2.

  16. #96
    The Patient Lannden's Avatar
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    Lets try to keep this a bit more civil, I am not out to pick fights with anyone I just want to learn about this game. Can we please stop the giant sweeping generalizations?

    I have heard about the Achievement system, do we have any information on how it will work. That may actually be what I'm looking for, really tough achievements could keep you occupied for months and are generally a lot more fun than the gear grind.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Lannden View Post
    I have heard about the Achievement system, do we have any information on how it will work. That may actually be what I'm looking for, really tough achievements could keep you occupied for months and are generally a lot more fun than the gear grind.
    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievements
    Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!!!

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  18. #98
    The Patient Lannden's Avatar
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    So no real info, as expected.

  19. #99
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lannden View Post
    So no real info, as expected.
    What, you wanted a list of all achievements in a game that isn't past alpha yet?
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  20. #100
    Every game has achievements these days. For pete's sake, my iphone games have achievements even. Pretty sure it's a safe bet GW2 will follow suit.

    GW1 achievements, collectibles and side quests were so numerous I am positive most have never seen more than 2/3rds of that game.

    http://hom.guildwars2.com/en/#page=m...AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
    http://hom.guildwars2.com/en/#page=m...AAAiUUIAAAAAAA

    Trust me. It took a lot of effort to get all that for myself.

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