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  1. #1

    Unhappy The decision to make PvP available at Level 1

    To me this breaks the immersion of your character in the world. When you go through the PvE side of things, it makes sense that your get more skills, gear etc as you level. Every time you log in, and everything you do is a continuation of this slow and steady progress. You character is and has exactly what you earn through the choices you make in the world.

    When you can instead create a character and instantly have every ability, the best gear etc. and travel straight to endgame pvp, it cheapens the value of the world you play in, it makes it irrelevant. It no longer feels like "your character" that you traveled with through many adventures, but rather just some generic toon created by the computer that you happen to play.

    This also seems bad for the PvP gameplay itself, as you will have players running around who have zero experience playing their profession.
    If you want to give players all the same gear to make it a level playing field then OK, but IMO make them wait until level 80 to get that. Have them go through the world, learn how to play their profession, develop a connection with their character, with the reward of a great PvP experience waiting for them at the end.
    Last edited by ShimmerSwirl; 2011-11-11 at 07:20 AM.

  2. #2
    there are people who only play to pvp. they should be allowed to follow that style of gameplay as pure pve players are allowed to follow their preferred style. why must pvp players be forced to play pve if it is not what they want? that seems like nonsense.

    besides, you personally can follow a pve/pvp path and develop your character as you wish.

  3. #3
    Agreed with Fencers. Players who only like PvP should not be forced to PvE.

    And yes, there will be people who are new and don't yet handle their character all that well. But well, nothing stops you from throwing a helpful hint or two.
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  4. #4
    I like it. It gives you a chance to try all classes out. The designers made this game for fun, they don't want you to have to grind all the time in order to experience the fun parts.
    I will probably level my main to lvl 80 and then start PvPing and PvEing on it, but then when I get all excited about another class in PvP I don't want to have to level it all to level 80 before I can try it out. And even if I start to 'fall in love' with the class then I always can decide to level one while also still playing on the PvP-toon as well till my other char is level 80.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostrider View Post
    I like it. It gives you a chance to try all classes out. The designers made this game for fun, they don't want you to have to grind all the time in order to experience the fun parts.
    I will probably level my main to lvl 80 and then start PvPing and PvEing on it, but then when I get all excited about another class in PvP I don't want to have to level it all to level 80 before I can try it out. And even if I start to 'fall in love' with the class then I always can decide to level one while also still playing on the PvP-toon as well till my other char is level 80.
    I am just wary of the 'instant gratification' mentality. WoW adopted that and the game really started to decline. I think its important to have goals and compelling reasons to continue logging into a MMO. I mean by the 'anti-grind' logic that many people use, why not just have every new player create a character and instantly be level 80? Why have a leveling process at all? At their root, MMOs are a giant time sink; reducing the amount of time it takes to do any task is counter-intuitive to the very nature of what the MMO is. Blizzard completely lost sight of this, hopefully Anet doesn't do the same.

  6. #6
    Fluffy Kitten Bloodhunter's Avatar
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    A level 80 has a little bit more advantage than a level 1, if someone has taken the time to learn to play a class to level 80. They will have a lot more experience with it than someone who takes any class as level 1 into PvP.

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  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
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    If you personally feel that jumping into pvp from level 1 breaks your immersion, then don't do pvp until you get to max level, problem solved.

    And if you want to level up using pvp you can. If you go into WvWvW it doesn't give you all of your abilities right away and you can level up and progress killing other players.

    Not to mention you can't do end game pve right from level one. It's not like you keep your stuff from competitive pvp when you do so.
    "Questions are for those seeking answers. Those who have answers are those who have asked questions." -Mike R. (Malthurius)

  8. #8
    You never played Guild Wars 1 I take it then.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    To me this breaks the immersion of your character in the world. When you go through the PvE side of things, it makes sense that your get more skills, gear etc as you level. Every time you log in, and everything you do is a continuation of this slow and steady progress. You character is and has exactly what you earn through the choices you make in the world.
    Well, by my experience in several MMOs my character always end the same no matter what my choices. It's like when your girlfriend asks you if he does look slimmer. No matter what you say or how you say it, it always ends in a fight.

    When you can instead create a character and instantly have every ability, the best gear etc. and travel straight to endgame pvp, it cheapens the value of the world you play in, it makes it irrelevant. It no longer feels like "your character" that you traveled with through many adventures, but rather just some generic toon created by the computer that you happen to play.
    I can't really understand how creating a 1st level character that's exactly the same as any other 1st level character isn't immersion breaking, but creating an 80 level character is. In any case it provides a way for people who doesn't care about leveling a way to play the game they like. It's an extra option you don't have to take - how is that bad?

    This also seems bad for the PvP gameplay itself, as you will have players running around who have zero experience playing their profession.
    If you want to give players all the same gear to make it a level playing field then OK, but IMO make them wait until level 80 to get that. Have them go through the world, learn how to play their profession, develop a connection with their character, with the reward of a great PvP experience waiting for them at the end.
    Ok, that's bollocks. when I tried in WoW to apply what I had learned leveling with my mage to PvP, what I tried to do was to cast fireball on that tauren warrior from max range, another fireball and fire blast while it walked up to me, then frost nova, press S to backpedal a bit out of melee range, then finish with another fireball + fire blast.

    Of course, I didn't finish casting the first fireball.

    Newbiew be newbies. If they have to learn to PvP let them do it by doing PvP.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I am just wary of the 'instant gratification' mentality. WoW adopted that and the game really started to decline. I think its important to have goals and compelling reasons to continue logging into a MMO. I mean by the 'anti-grind' logic that many people use, why not just have every new player create a character and instantly be level 80? Why have a leveling process at all? At their root, MMOs are a giant time sink; reducing the amount of time it takes to do any task is counter-intuitive to the very nature of what the MMO is. Blizzard completely lost sight of this, hopefully Anet doesn't do the same.
    Um, have you played GW1?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I am just wary of the 'instant gratification' mentality. WoW adopted that and the game really started to decline. I think its important to have goals and compelling reasons to continue logging into a MMO. I mean by the 'anti-grind' logic that many people use, why not just have every new player create a character and instantly be level 80? Why have a leveling process at all? At their root, MMOs are a giant time sink; reducing the amount of time it takes to do any task is counter-intuitive to the very nature of what the MMO is. Blizzard completely lost sight of this, hopefully Anet doesn't do the same.
    PvP =/= PvE. See Gw1 for more info on PvP-only characters.
    Obviously the leveling process is there for PvE, and for the fun of it. They don't reduce the amount of time it takes to do any task, they only reduce the amount of time a player is grinding. If you want to sink time, then play dungeons/DE/PvP/RP or something all day, they don't want you to have to kill a 1.000.000 boars before you can actually have fun. Unless you want to of course.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowen View Post
    Ok, that's bollocks. when I tried in WoW to apply what I had learned leveling with my mage to PvP, what I tried to do was to cast fireball on that tauren warrior from max range, another fireball and fire blast while it walked up to me, then frost nova, press S to backpedal a bit out of melee range, then finish with another fireball + fire blast.

    Of course, I didn't finish casting the first fireball.

    Newbiew be newbies. If they have to learn to PvP let them do it by doing PvP.
    Hahaha Oh, the fun times when you have never played an MMO before, let alone PvP in one, and you go try a BG.. I got my ass handed to me SO hard that it hurt for days
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  13. #13
    The satisfaction from PvP comes from out-skilling other players, not obtaining gear. So why make gear part of the equation? Also, as you know from WoW low-level PvP is extreamly frustration as you don't have all the skills you need to fight other classes fairly, GW2 has solved this with their PvP model and it is therefore easy to balance for all players.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by UKLooneyJr View Post
    The satisfaction from PvP comes from out-skilling other players, not obtaining gear. So why make gear part of the equation? Also, as you know from WoW low-level PvP is extreamly frustration as you don't have all the skills you need to fight other classes fairly, GW2 has solved this with their PvP model and it is therefore easy to balance for all players.
    It's worth noting that GW1 solved this problem. GW2 merely copies GW1 (with one exception of not needing unlocks like in GW1).

  15. #15
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    To me this breaks the immersion of your character in the world. When you go through the PvE side of things, it makes sense that your get more skills, gear etc as you level. Every time you log in, and everything you do is a continuation of this slow and steady progress. You character is and has exactly what you earn through the choices you make in the world.

    When you can instead create a character and instantly have every ability, the best gear etc. and travel straight to endgame pvp, it cheapens the value of the world you play in, it makes it irrelevant. It no longer feels like "your character" that you traveled with through many adventures, but rather just some generic toon created by the computer that you happen to play.
    Although I agree with what you said, GW1 system worked really well for me. Both design philosophies have good and bad points in my opinion.

  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral Haggerty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    To me this breaks the immersion of your character in the world. When you go through the PvE side of things, it makes sense that your get more skills, gear etc as you level. Every time you log in, and everything you do is a continuation of this slow and steady progress. You character is and has exactly what you earn through the choices you make in the world.
    I see where you're coming from. I guess different people play for different reasons - as someone who enjoys getting immersed in the world and story it doesn't make sense.

    On the other hand, a total PvPer gets very immersed in the combat...and doesn't necessarily mind too much about how they got there. Similar to a multi-player FPS, for example, you log in...blow things up and then log out...

    The system caters to both kinds of player, which I think is a nice thing.

    I guess with all games there has to be a line somewhere - "yes, it's more realistic...but is it fun?". Being able to breath underwater, for instance, it would be more realistic if the player had to find some mechanism...but wouldn't it really just be a chore and end up breaking the immersion of the encounter?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    To me this breaks the immersion of your character in the world. When you go through the PvE side of things, it makes sense that your get more skills, gear etc as you level. Every time you log in, and everything you do is a continuation of this slow and steady progress. You character is and has exactly what you earn through the choices you make in the world.

    When you can instead create a character and instantly have every ability, the best gear etc. and travel straight to endgame pvp, it cheapens the value of the world you play in, it makes it irrelevant. It no longer feels like "your character" that you traveled with through many adventures, but rather just some generic toon created by the computer that you happen to play.

    This also seems bad for the PvP gameplay itself, as you will have players running around who have zero experience playing their profession.
    If you want to give players all the same gear to make it a level playing field then OK, but IMO make them wait until level 80 to get that. Have them go through the world, learn how to play their profession, develop a connection with their character, with the reward of a great PvP experience waiting for them at the end.
    considering PvP in GW2 doesn't take place in the "actual" world, the world immersion problem is moot.
    and as it's been said, GW1 had an even more radical way to do things as PvP-only chars actualy began at max level. in GW2, since things haven't been implemented that way (yet?), you still have to level your char though you're sidekicked to lvl 80 when actually entering a PvP zone.

    as for the "zero pvp xp vs proz", i think it will never be as bad as getting 1-shoted in WoW when you get into a fight with 0 resi. in fact, with gear normalization, there is no guarantee for anyone to be victorious of any fight if it's not taken "seriously".
    even the most l33t pr0-gamaz could get his ass kicked by some random unknown player who'd happen to play better than him at that moment.
    Last edited by sacrypheyes; 2011-11-11 at 12:48 PM.

  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    I think it's a good thing to normalize all PvP. The way it works in WoW makes zero sense. With all the talk about "skill" in PvP it doesn't make sense to put such an emphasis on gear and resilience. By making everyone equal in gear and available skills actual player skill will really have chance to shine.

    People should look at Guild Wars 2 PvP like they look at online FPS's.
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  20. #20
    I think it's a good thing. Not everybody likes PvE. Why should they have to wait to have fun when the PvE people can start having fun the moment they play the game?

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