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  1. #41
    In 4-1/2 months, we have yet to see the bow off Ragnaros. We haven't seen the crossbow off of heroic Rhyolith, either, and we've had precisely ZERO firestones drop, ever. And this is in 25-man.

    Random is random.

  2. #42
    Yes skill>gear to an extent. There are fights (usually the dps checks) that do require some gear. Blizzard could go a couple ways with the loot problem:

    1) Smart loot. Loot won't drop if there isn't anyone that could use it. Problem here is potential raid stacking depending on how "smart" the system is.

    2) 10m drop more piece. Probably one more. But only allow the ML to pick 2 of them. Problem here is lots of potential for loot drama.

    All in all RNG is the fairest but something does need to be done about it. Even if it's something like a dynamic % of drop chance. Something along the lines of every week a guild group doesn't see a drop the odds of what didn't drop go up a bit. Once the item drops it goes back down to it's base percent.

  3. #43
    if you want more drops go to 25, i am quite annoyed that theyre looking at giving 10 mans more "favourable" drops in terms of the amount of tokens. If they buff the drops for 10 man they damn well better buff them to be the same ratio in 25 mans.

    They've already almost crippled 25 man guilds this expansion.

  4. #44
    They've already almost crippled 25 man guilds this expansion.
    Please elaborate.

  5. #45
    Previous tier fights like Alakir on 10man hc were actually harder than 25man,
    hahahahah, 0/10

    Also, making 10 mans drop more token per person is just pathetic move by blizzard




    Please elaborate.
    Apart from top guilds that raid 25s because they are simply more fun/better/competetiveness lies there, most of 25 man guilds fell apart, due to the fact that they are harder to maintain AND raids (all of firelands, most of t11) were harder, basically the only thing that kept some of them runnig was the fact that you could gear up easier - now its gone
    Just look at number of 25 and 10 man kills on wowprogress
    Last edited by deviancee; 2011-11-11 at 07:34 PM.

  6. #46
    Our 10m raid grp has seen 0 VPLC from raggy in 18 kills with both mains and alts, and we have seen a grand total of 14 Matrix Restabilizers.
    25m rng isn't as bad as 10m untill you have seen 35 Matrix Restabilizers and 0 VPLC.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Bane Falcon View Post
    If the loot has a 5% drop rate, that means that each time he's killed, there's a 5% chance he has it on him. That does NOT mean that the first time he has 5%, the second 10%, the third 15%... There is no accumulation of percentages. The dice do not have memory.
    (1- (0.05))^20 = ~0.36

    About 64% of the people that have killed shannox 20 times have seen the boots atleast once. (Assuming they got 5% drop chance).

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Imbasawrus View Post
    Our 10m raid grp has seen 0 VPLC from raggy in 18 kills with both mains and alts, and we have seen a grand total of 14 Matrix Restabilizers.
    25m rng isn't as bad as 10m untill you have seen 35 Matrix Restabilizers and 0 VPLC.
    uh no, in 25m many more people need that trinket.
    last h rag kill we had 12 people in the raid for which that trinket is bis. you think in fantasyland 25m 3 of those drop every week? none dropped, none dropped last week either.
    you might feel comfortable arguing against 25m acquisition of tier drops but you are insane if you think that 25m drops always get utilized.
    we vendor tier, we de 99% of the other drops. a lot of people are still not full bis like agi or caster cloak neck ring rag trinket. a lot of people still need firestones, this is in a top 20 us guild.
    initially tier is much better utilized in 25m, the first few tokens _cannot_ be wasted but in my last guild we had 8-9 conq wearers, not a _single_ one had 4 pc 391 tier and we couldn't GIVE away vanq/prot even for offspec.

    your guild went from 2/13 to 6/7H what a joke this tier is in 10m.

  9. #49
    People keep trying to argue that the number are the same but they aren't. For one 3 tier drops in 25 man is a greater proportion per player than the 1 from 10 man. Not only that but you are more likely to waste a piece of gear in a 10 man raid where each kill has more "value" due to the slower gear accumulation rate as a whole. I don't remember where the post is but someone did the math awhile back and (taking a few liberties with rng) determined that between evenly progressed 10 and 25 man groups the 25 man would fit everyone out in BiS almost twice as fast as the 10 man group. This was particularly true when it came to the tier token drops. This problem will get worse in 4.3 since there is no tier gear from VP vendors and they are all token drops. I'd imagine you will see many 10 man groups get straight heroic tokens just because the normal one didn't drop enough. Lastly I'm not sure how it will work but I hope that the T13 heroic tokens will not require the regular piece to upgrade.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by deviancee View Post
    Apart from top guilds that raid 25s because they are simply more fun/better/competetiveness lies there, most of 25 man guilds fell apart, due to the fact that they are harder to maintain AND raids (all of firelands, most of t11) were harder, basically the only thing that kept some of them runnig was the fact that you could gear up easier - now its gone
    Just look at number of 25 and 10 man kills on wowprogress
    T11 harder for 25-man, are you on crack or something?

  11. #51
    Deleted
    Wasn't there a similar thread earlier this year, where the OP actually had created a program which calculated the gear saturation speed for both 10-man and 25-man raid sizes?

    I actually found that topic, which included the data:

    Quote Originally Posted by Barth View Post
    The results, as an average of the number of runs needed for the given level of loot saturation:

    50% loot saturation
    10 man: 7.10 runs
    25 man: 4.87 runs

    75% loot saturation
    10 man: 13.26 runs
    25 man: 8.48 runs

    95% loot saturation
    10 man: 30.33 runs
    25 man: 17.65 runs
    This would point to 25-man gearing up faster.
    Last edited by mmoced9c7f72b6; 2011-11-12 at 12:03 PM.

  12. #52
    Bloodsail Admiral Moggie's Avatar
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    One day my 10man will see a single piece of Caster gear and Conqueror Tokens. After two months, we've seen nada. Every Vanq/Prot token user has full sets. Random Loot is Random...But it's alright. The priest/pally/lock are still pwning people 9 ilvl above them. Don't care about the number of loot, but more about there being smart loot.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    T11 harder for 25-man, are you on crack or something?
    Tier 11 was quite 50/50 as far as difficulty was. 10-man was harder on some fights mainly due to add healths being close to the 25-man equivalents. Rest of the fights were mostly harder on 25-man.

  14. #54
    It's an advantage 25m guilds honestly deserve, getting more loot.

    10m really needs a buff of some kind so we see more variety of loot, but no, I don't think they should be flat-out equal.

  15. #55
    10m allll the way dude

  16. #56
    10m loot is just retarded how terrible it is. i have done around 40 or 45 total FL runs spanning across several alts and not once have i ever seen the BOE boots from shannox. i have seen every other drop off him and some that dont even seem likely (like the zoits firelit greatsword) this should definitly change.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by heartattack View Post
    HI guys i raid in both 10 and 25 man guilds my question is why should it be so much harder to get the gear u need in 10 man.
    Both take skill to down in heroic but 10 man u can kill a boss all patch as i have done and never see the drop u need.
    what i think the answer would be to fix this is in 10 man u get 5 pieces of loot and the raid leader picks the 2 most needed.we D.E tier shoulders for the last 6 weeks and still our pallies dont have them or have seen them drop.

    plz plz plz smarter loot for 10 man guilds we are players as well ( stop dropping rogue daggers we dont have a rogue)
    Because that was the whole point of the shared lockouts. 25's drop more loot per player. There still has to be incentive to keep 25's going. 10's are easier to put together, easier to maintain, and less people to mess up. If they tweaked it, 10's would gear you up much faster. Less competition for gear. If 10's dropped 5 pieces of gear, with the raid leader being able to choose which two are picked, it would put another nail in 25 man raiding. With your system, you would gear up in no time. And when people get the gear they want, where is the incentive to run the same raid for the 20th time? There wouldn't be one. And blizz would have to push content out much, much faster. Or risk boredom taking over. The payoff isn't there. People chase the carrot. As much as they moan about it, that's what keeps people running it.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-13 at 08:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    T11 harder for 25-man, are you on crack or something?
    Are you? When we were stuck on a boss toward the end of the week in T11, we broke down into tens on the last day and downed it. Heroic Halfus because of class balance and tanking, and Magmaw because raid damage was so high, and needing to 3 heal. 10's were just easier across the board.
    Last edited by Last Starfighter; 2011-11-13 at 08:43 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by heartattack View Post
    HI guys i raid in both 10 and 25 man guilds my question is why should it be so much harder to get the gear u need in 10 man.
    Both take skill to down in heroic but 10 man u can kill a boss all patch as i have done and never see the drop u need.
    what i think the answer would be to fix this is in 10 man u get 5 pieces of loot and the raid leader picks the 2 most needed.we D.E tier shoulders for the last 6 weeks and still our pallies dont have them or have seen them drop.

    plz plz plz smarter loot for 10 man guilds we are players as well ( stop dropping rogue daggers we dont have a rogue)
    dont feel bad ive down bael everytime since release on both my prot warrior/pally and lf Shard of torment and seeing as it never drops always, and always the same 2 pieces of garbage gear like hell the dps and heals are outgearing me by far cause F all drops for tanks now.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by announced View Post
    10m loot is just retarded how terrible it is. i have done around 40 or 45 total FL runs spanning across several alts and not once have i ever seen the BOE boots from shannox. i have seen every other drop off him and some that dont even seem likely (like the zoits firelit greatsword) this should definitly change.
    Yeah, it's not like they're boe or anything. The loot system is fine.

  20. #60
    RNG ensures that a raid is not stacked to influence the result of the drops.
    That could and would happen if there was any way by choice of members to adjust readiness by which certain items of loot are available.

    Anything other than random loot can be manipulated, and that should not be allowed to happen.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2011-11-13 at 08:55 AM.

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