shred (glyph of shred) 4.3

[Deleted]

We changed the Glyph of Shred so that Feral druids wouldn’t need to vary their rotation in situations where they could not Shred (such as on Ultraxion).

so what about the dps loss from shread/mangle? shread is doing something like 50% more dmg than mangle 30% from mangle debuff and 20% from rend and tear even tho it will fix a bit of the probloms that feral got when he cant shread on bosses the loss of dps will still be huge
give me your thoughts

[Zudiak]

Read the main page.

"Shred will offer slightly more overall DPS compared to Mangle if you are able to stay behind the target. Once Glyph of Shred works from Mangle as well as Shred, the difference between a Mangle and a Shred rotation is actually fairly small (in the 5% range)."

[Deleted]

so they will nerf shread dmg or buff mangle dmg cause i really cant compare the dmg from those 2 skills

[Elumaria]

I don't think they are actually this far apart on the live servers. Sure Shred will always result in more damage, but with the Glyph also working with mangle the gap shouldn't be too big.

[Deleted]

as i said before shread atm is doing 50% more dmg than mangle cause mangle debuff and rend and tear talend
http://imageshack.us/content_round.p...upload&newlp=1
http://imageshack.us/content_round.p...upload&newlp=1
on those 2 fotos i got a normal rotasion to check the dmg of shread and on the 2nd i waqs spaming mangle with tigers fury on cd every time you can see alone that the gap betwine mangle and shread its huge so if what zudiak sayd is true wich i dont have any dought or they will buff mangle or they will nerf shread or they dont know what they talking about (div)

[traen]

We changed the Glyph of Shred so that Feral druids wouldn’t need to vary their rotation in situations where they could not Shred (such as on Ultraxion).

You know whats really stupid? It was possible to shred Ultraxion on early beta. YES! He had 360 degree back.
And thats how ALL the encounters where you can not shred from behind should look like.

I see no even single reason why should some classes have penalty on some bosses blizzard wanted to make boss huge to look more epic.
Especially when the bosses that you can't shred for some strange coincidence are top bosses of current content.

[Deleted]

well my friend a lot of things in this game are stupid but you can say its a huge game bla bla bla so some things might get undetected but since they know the problem if what i said before is right then i really have to worry about the ppl that design the game



---------- Post added 2011-11-12 at 01:08 AM ----------

Read the main page.

"Shred will offer slightly more overall DPS compared to Mangle if you are able to stay behind the target. Once Glyph of Shred works from Mangle as well as Shred, the difference between a Mangle and a Shred rotation is actually fairly small (in the 5% range)."

In 5.0 Mangle will no longer cause a bleed damage debuff, and will be usable from any facing.
Guardians (bears) will have Mangle, but not Shred. Mangle and Shred will both exist for Feral (cats).
Shred will offer slightly more overall DPS compared to Mangle if you are able to stay behind the target. Once Glyph of Shred works from Mangle as well as Shred, the difference between a Mangle and a Shred rotation is actually fairly small (in the 5% range).

as you see in the start it speaks for 5.0 patch MOP next expansion im speaking for next patch

[Deleted]

I don't think they are actually this far apart on the live servers. Sure Shred will always result in more damage, but with the Glyph also working with mangle the gap shouldn't be too big.

Data from my last Rag hc kill (where i both mangle and shred quite a bit):

Mangle avg hit: 12271.8
Shred avg hit: 19267.4 (57% more)

Mangle avg crit: 26085.4
Shred avg crit: 40939.9 (57% more)

(source: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=11535&e=12369 )

Now switch to baleroc, a fairly simple fight for melee dps. 2,413,981 (25%) of my damage here comes from shred. Would this damage be replaced by mangle, it would be reduced to:

2,413,981 / 1.57 = 1,537,568, a difference of 876,413 damage.

My total damage for that fight was 9,629,234, so it's nearly a 10% damage loss.

(source: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5460&e=5754

Of course, by replacing 80 shreds with 80 mangles, i also save 5x80 = 400 energy. This energy could be used on more mangles and ferocious bites. With ~50% crit rate, it takes 5/1.5 = 3.33 mangles to get 5 combo points. So the total energy spent on a 5 combopoint manglespam->FB = 3.33x35+25 = 142.

Avg dmg of mangle is 16.7k, avg dmg of FB is 51.4k, so total damage is 3.33 * 16.7 + 51.4 = 107k

With the 400 extra energy gained from swapping shred to mangle, i could do 400/142 = 2.8 of these combos, for a total of 2.8*107 = 301k damage.

876k - 301k = 575k damage loss = still over 6% damage lost, IF you manage to make optimal use of the saved energy (and with energy capping during berserk due to the less-effective mangle energy dump this is unlikely).

So the estimated practical dps loss from switching to mangle instead of shred is somewhere around 7.5%.

This is of course not accounting for inability to use feral charge, which is a decent dps loss as well.

[exochaft]

So the estimated practical dps loss from switching to mangle instead of shred is somewhere around 7.5%.

This is of course not accounting for inability to use feral charge, which is a decent dps loss as well.

Out of curiosity, did you account for the increased Rip bleed duration from using Mangle that we currently do not have? Figured that's where Blizz got the ~5% damage loss between Mangle-only rotations and Shred. Didn't know if you accounted for this and forgot to mention that and still came up with 7.5%. I'd crunch the numbers but my son wants to watch a movie with me on pain of death.

[Braindwen]

Out of curiosity, did you account for the increased Rip bleed duration from using Mangle that we currently do not have? Figured that's where Blizz got the ~5% damage loss between Mangle-only rotations and Shred. Didn't know if you accounted for this and forgot to mention that and still came up with 7.5%. I'd crunch the numbers but my son wants to watch a movie with me on pain of death.

Just looking at his post, yes. It's accounted for by not changing anything regarding rip, and just taking out the difference in shred and mangle damage. If GoShred didn't affect mangle, there'd be a bunch of math about lost FBs, possible lost rip uptime, etc, which isn't there. I guess you could say that you're getting more mangles in than shreds, so you'd get a few more rip extensions in... but as far as I know we're already using at least 3 shreds per rip so that wouldn't affect anything, and it almost certainly wouldn't be worth 2.5% damage (especially with the 2pct13, which I've heard people considering dropping bloodletting once we get that anyway).

[Deleted]

nise explanation from mihir tho i dont get 1 thing since i cant test it on a boss i test it on a training dammy while by using shread i do 23K dps on 6 million dmg by using mangle i drop to 20k s if you add the new glyph it will be something like 21k? and whit the new weapons on the next path the gap will be higher so my question is this how on earth 2k dps loss its not so important and special when that dps loss was and its only for 1 class/specc of the game

[Wolfdragon]

It isn't 1 specc, it really isn't, ALL melee's suffer from dodge/parry on those bosses, the fact that they lose alot of the "other stats" into getting hit/exp caps ( we do too, in this tier ) you just don't see it as penalising to them as you do for yourself, a rogue not backstabbing is just as bad as us not shreding (post bloodletting) same goes for warriors the difference between MS and OP is just about the same as the difference between shred and mangle, every dodge/parry they lose the same ammount of damage as we do, account for dodged/parried CS's? want me to go on? every melee in the game is somewhat crippled when not able to get behind, your knowledge of other classes is too slim to argue with, if you think we're the only ones losing dps, you're wrong. Some classes do have it better, but some have it worse(albeit I can't think of a class that has it worse than us I'm preety sure there should be atleast some ret/enh perhaps, because I didn't really see a parse of how much dodged/parried TV/Crusader strike and such are of a dps loss, especially lava lash parried should be a hell of a loss). We aren't alone here, it's what melee is about.

[Braindwen]

It isn't 1 specc, it really isn't, ALL melee's suffer from dodge/parry on those bosses, the fact that they lose alot of the "other stats" into getting hit/exp caps ( we do too, in this tier ) you just don't see it as penalising to them as you do for yourself, a rogue not backstabbing is just as bad as us not shreding (post bloodletting) same goes for warriors the difference between MS and OP is just about the same as the difference between shred and mangle, every dodge/parry they lose the same ammount of damage as we do, account for dodged/parried CS's? want me to go on? every melee in the game is somewhat crippled when not able to get behind, your knowledge of other classes is too slim to argue with, if you think we're the only ones losing dps, you're wrong. Some classes do have it better, but some have it worse(albeit I can't think of a class that has it worse than us I'm preety sure there should be atleast some ret/enh perhaps, because I didn't really see a parse of how much dodged/parried TV/Crusader strike and such are of a dps loss, especially lava lash parried should be a hell of a loss). We aren't alone here, it's what melee is about.

While true... the fight where this'll be major issue next tier is Ultraxion, who cannot parry attacks. Initially Ultraxion ALSO let you shred/backstab, but for some ungodly reason they decided to remove that and JUST punish non-combat rogue specs/ferals. Pretty... terrible design, especially for the patchwerk of the tier.

We also deal with parries, so you know, tough luck for other classes. They deal with parries, we deal with parries AND need to mangle instead of shred.

[Deleted]

---------- Post added 2011-11-13 at 05:40 AM ----------

It isn't 1 specc, it really isn't, ALL melee's suffer from dodge/parry on those bosses, the fact that they lose alot of the "other stats" into getting hit/exp caps ( we do too, in this tier ) you just don't see it as penalising to them as you do for yourself, a rogue not backstabbing is just as bad as us not shreding (post bloodletting) same goes for warriors the difference between MS and OP is just about the same as the difference between shred and mangle, every dodge/parry they lose the same ammount of damage as we do, account for dodged/parried CS's? want me to go on? every melee in the game is somewhat crippled when not able to get behind, your knowledge of other classes is too slim to argue with, if you think we're the only ones losing dps, you're wrong. Some classes do have it better, but some have it worse(albeit I can't think of a class that has it worse than us I'm preety sure there should be atleast some ret/enh perhaps, because I didn't really see a parse of how much dodged/parried TV/Crusader strike and such are of a dps loss, especially lava lash parried should be a hell of a loss). We aren't alone here, it's what melee is about.

1st of all i will agree with what brain said
2nd how on earth you know the knowledge that i got for other classes
3rd what you mension for other melees that they saffer from dodge and parry it was and it is the same for a feral druid the only tier that wasnt like this was the 1st in cata so if they saffer from that expertise ftw telling you this in case you are new to feral specc
4th wich class apart the rogue with (backstab) wich is at 25% of the fight cant use a spesific skill because of stupid boss designs
5th for the end who spoke about dodge and parry im whining cause i cant use specific skill and i lose dps

[tangedyn]

Out of curiosity, did you account for the increased Rip bleed duration from using Mangle that we currently do not have? Figured that's where Blizz got the ~5% damage loss between Mangle-only rotations and Shred. Didn't know if you accounted for this and forgot to mention that and still came up with 7.5%. I'd crunch the numbers but my son wants to watch a movie with me on pain of death.

Yes he did take that into account, Mew has had 4.3 mechanics supported for a few weeks already.

[Wolfdragon]

I'm going to answer to this fellow because he fails to understand this game is not punishing us- Let me elaborate, parried/dodged attack on a feral druid, you get 90% of the energy back and you get to do the attack you tried to do over and over, consider warriors- Dodged/parried collosus smash all of their attacks in the next 6sec are doing 100% less damage(half) assuming no dodge/parry it's about the same as our loss with no shred, then consider a dodge/parry on any of the warriors attacks, forced to use overpower which is about the same coefficient of damage of shred vs. mangle. WE ARE NOT ALONE DEAL WITH IT.

[Duilliath]

I'm going to answer to this fellow because he fails to understand this game is not punishing us- Let me elaborate, parried/dodged attack on a feral druid, you get 90% of the energy back and you get to do the attack you tried to do over and over, consider warriors- Dodged/parried collosus smash all of their attacks in the next 6sec are doing 100% less damage(half) assuming no dodge/parry it's about the same as our loss with no shred, then consider a dodge/parry on any of the warriors attacks, forced to use overpower which is about the same coefficient of damage of shred vs. mangle. WE ARE NOT ALONE DEAL WITH IT.

And apparently, what you fail to understand, is that Parries do not at all matter in this case. Ultraxion can not parry. Stop bringing it up. Everyone to who it matters will be exp capped to prevent dodges (which is the same from front and behind).

[Rioo]

Data from my last Rag hc kill (where i both mangle and shred quite a bit):

##Text##

Is that with glyph of mangle though? I'm guessing it's better then GoBerserk if you can't shred. It's gonna be a bit harder to calculate since you need to check how many shreds you do per berserk on average, replace with mangles, multiply with 3/5 and do all the calculations again. And add 10 sec of non-Berserk rotation obviously.

It's also gonna suck for progression losing a big part of our current 4p if we switch glyphs.

[Wolfdragon]

Why are we talking about 1 select boss over and over? I'm talking about any non-shreddable boss.

[Duilliath]

Because people are getting their ruffles up over the boss in the important tier: the one on the PTR, which we could first shred. Which caused the change to the Glyph of Shred. Which caused this discussion.

That is why.

Is that with glyph of mangle though? I'm guessing it's better then GoBerserk if you can't shred.

I doubt it was. I considered GoMangle, but having a hard time seeing it be more powerful than GoBerserk. Didn't do the math, but as you said, it'd be hard to substantiate really specifically.