Resilience and finite resources

[shell]

First and foremost, my apologies if this topic has been brought up before, I did a quick keyword search and did not see one.

I read the forums on a regular basis and see a lot of frustration about healing, self-healing, healers not running out mana, etc....Whether or not that frustration is justified, I don't know. But what I do know is the developers are trying to find a way to make mana more of a finite resource. It's something they attempted to do in Cataclysm and something they are working on in Mists.

Resilience is, in my opinion, a great stat: damage reduction is a wonderful thing. However, by default the amount of damage you put out is reduced because the opponents you're facing are wearing resilience too. In other words, more resilience equals more survive-ability, but the trade-off is less damage (assuming your opponent is wearing resilience as well). To be clear, I don't have a problem with this trade-off.

But I am curious as to why healers don't face the same trade-off.

Maybe the developers could implement a change to resilience, so that it not only reduces damage received but also reduces healing received (though, not at the same rate). Would this make mana more of a finite resource?

[Malgru]

So resilience lessens the healing you recieve by a small amount? Hmmm. Interesting theory. Would definitely nerf blood DKs. It really depends on how much it is - it has to be so much as to make it easy to get a kill in arenas, but not enough as to having to have 6 healers on a FC in a RBG. Hard to balance, but great idea. It would make the healers go OOM a lot quicker, and cooldowns be blown a lot faster.

[Pocketzest]

I mentioned a similar idea in this thread. I'm too lazy to quote and such but if you can scroll down a half page you can see the idea I had. I definitely like this guy's idea
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post12750180
apparently the link takes you straight to the post. I guess I could have just copied it and pasted it lol.

[Bllets]

Then comes the question if paired with a healer to pick between: Less damage taken and less healing taken OR more damage done and more healing taken.

IF the later becomes the viable pick, PvE will reign supreme again.

I generally do not like the idea, because it really isn't that much thought true. Since it would affect some healers more then others, and would completely kill some specs viability (Since they rely being kept alive by healers).

Damage is high now, which is why healing is high. Both are most likely to be reduced in MoP, at least that is what i hope.

[Yvaelle]

Are you seriously basing your opinion that healing is too high off people QQ'ing on forums? Some healers do struggle with mana (priests, druids) while others are immune to mana (shamans, paladins) - but all healers need high healing to keep people alive right now because burst is crazy high right now. If you make resilience scale against healing, you necessitate healers to wear pve gear to heal as much as they are right now - making them more frail to being burst down - decreasing the usefulness of healers in pvp. Now when the game is already struggling with convincing people to play healers - that's a bad move for Blizzard's part - but for pvp that would only Further increase the prevalence of triple dps teams: nobody wants that.

[Thes]

Maybe it ´should be affected by the healers own resilience; the more they stack the less they heal..

Or just put a healing reduction aura on all pvp zones and have a dirty laugh while doing it. :> Either way we'll get 25% MS next patch.

[shell]

"Then comes the question if paired with a healer to pick between: Less damage taken and less healing taken OR more damage done and more healing taken."
"IF the later becomes the viable pick, PvE will reign supreme again."

I'm interpreting this to mean that you think people will opt to wear BiS PvE items. People do this to some extent with trinkets and the legendary. I think resilience is too good to pass up except in those cases. Sure, I could attempt to go into an arena or an rbg in BiS PvE gear so I can do more damage; but I would be blown to smithereens. It'd be fun but I don't think anyone who does PvP at a high level would do that. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your post .

"Are you seriously basing your opinion that healing is too high off people QQ'ing on forums?"

I can see how my thread could be construed in this manner. I meant it to be more about how to make mana a finite resource, which the developers are trying to do.

[skullduggery]

This actually makes a lot of sense. Every MMO I've played, healers are always OP.

[Deleted]

I'm a resto druid and this makes my life in pvp worse than it already is, and it's quite bad right now

[Deleted]

If DPS lose damage from wearing PVP gear then technically healers lose healing from wearing it too. You do know that we benefit from haste, mastery, crit too right? So resil already does make us lose healing (and regen) compared to pve gear.

The only issue with healers in PVP is that they don't go oom. Blizzard fucked that up in cata and it's their fault, not ours. Reduce healer mana regen in pvp and problem solved. If you nerf healing further then you're just setting the next expansion up to be a zerg fest. Why bother using strategy or cc when you can just zerg a healer down with unhealable damage? Does that sound like fun pvp to you? Of course not.

[Deleted]

just my thoughts as a holypala (full geared, 391 weapons): atm there are only a few classes that can kill a holypala in a reasonable timeframe. some of them need luck after all.
is this "good"? no, it ain't. problem is, if you lower the might of a healer, those other classes, who can beat him anyway will simply get a big smile on their face.
you can try to kill a holypala by yourself, had duels against rogues, ferals/mkins, afflocks, ele/enh, dks, warris, retris that lasted 30 minutes. they were not able to find a way or "rota" to get the kill. shadows and mages on the other hand don't have that much of a problem. sp manaburns me down -and- can take my bubble and mages do have nice cc, so in the right order, they don't need more than 2 mins (max) to kill me.

in the 2v2 arena there are atm some combos that can't, when facing each other in a fight, get a single kill. the heal and mana-regen is too good and the cc too bad. had so many fights, were the others left after 10 minutes, because they know, arena will last 45 minutes and nothing will change.
but who cares 2v2?

in 3v3 arena you do have more dmg and better cc, but i never ever had a match (and i had about 4000 only with the main), were not a single player got killed and the 45 minutes cap was reached. sometimes 1 player on both teams got killed and the other players had a 2v2 situation like described above. that's bad luck.
in rbg you have even more tools to deal with the healer-"problem", esp in flagcarries bgs you can just wait for stacks.

so btt: the idea of nerfing the healers or the heal itself won't help. as john67 and perhaps others wrote above, this would lead to a situation, were you don't need a healer.
nerfing the mana-regen would help in many situations, but what about those classes without mana? they will have a big advantage, the longer the fight lasts.

this problem is quite complex and can't be viewed from a 1v1 or 2v2 pov. and even strange combos aren't entitled to consider when looking for the solution.

[Flexxtar]

How about removing healing from BG's? (this one is gonna get flamed for sure)

[shell]

If DPS lose damage from wearing PVP gear then technically healers lose healing from wearing it too. You do know that we benefit from haste, mastery, crit too right? So resil already does make us lose healing (and regen) compared to pve gear.

I see where you are coming from but the point is not that DPS/healers lose damage/healing from wearing PvP gear.

When it comes to wearing PvP gear everyone loses stats. Thus, DPS/healers don't do as much damage/healing as they would if they were wearing PvE gear. Ultimately, that's the trade-off we all make when it comes to PvP; we all get more survive-ability, at the cost of less damage/healing.

Personally, I'm more than happy to make this trade-off.

However, the point that I was attempting to make was that DPS not only does less damage from wearing PvP gear (which, like you pointed out, is moot since healers do less healing as well), BUT that DPS also does less damage because opponents are wearing resilience.

I'm curious as to why healers do not face this same trade-off and if implementing a change to resilience (i.e. reducing healing received or perhaps reducing mana regeneration) would make mana more of a finite resource, which the developers have said they are trying to do:

Koraa:
"We want mana to be a finite resource in PvP that you want to spend intelligently. So if you have two healers on either side, the one who spends his/her mana more effectively has an advantage. Because of lot of factors (self healing, too much mana regen, class mechanics) that is diminished a bit. So you shouldn't be killing healersjust because you burst them down and keep them interrupted, but because you cause them to have to use mana inefficiently. We aren't there yet, but that's the goal." (source: CoverItLive Q&A: Class Design & Balance Transcript)

[Stanton Biston]

The develops have answered this question before, and the answer has always been that they don't want a stat that makes you less powerful.

Additionally, it would be hard to tune and probably make healers useless in Arenas and RBGs.

[Snakez]

I thought about that too. Healing should be weaker on targets with resilience just like damage...

How about removing healing from BG's? (this one is gonna get flamed for sure)

They should just let the same amount of healers for each team in BGs and remove healers from 2v2.

Never gonna happen tho

[Tyrean]

I see the MS effect change a step in that direction but unfortunately it starts back in the direction of you need a rogue/hunter/war on your team or you are at a disadvantage all the time. If you roll healing reduction into resilience then you won't have that problem. I would rather they get rid of all MS effects, roll healing reduction into resilience and make players choose how they want to gear. I could go pve gear to do more damage, take more damage, and get healed for more (more yoyo), or gear resilience and do less damage, take less damage, and get healed for less (more stable) The difference being that in the end the amount of mana spent by the healer would theoretically be about the same. It would come down to if you want to try to gib someone or a more controlled approach.

I think the idea is not to make healers have a hard time keeping someone alive under pressure, but to make them expend resources to do that so it cannot be done continually. Why not just take the same 25% MS and roll it into resilience? Same effect, simpler mechanics, which is what I think blizzard would like. In addition it will create more interesting gearing choices as apposed to right now which is mainly just how much resilience can I get. Blizzard has said specifically they want gear choices to be more interesting.

[shell]

The develops have answered this question before, and the answer has always been that they don't want a stat that makes you less powerful.

Additionally, it would be hard to tune and probably make healers useless in Arenas and RBGs.

I'm not trying to be thick-headed here, but isn't resilience a "stat that makes you less powerful". I get that its intended purpose is survive-ability but by default it also makes us less powerful. To clarify, I'm fine with the way resilience works.

My interest was in the "double-edged sword"(for lack of a better word) that DPS face:
1). Less damage because they're wearing PvP gear (irrelevant, since healers do less healing for the same reason)
2). Less damage because their opponents are wearing PvP gear. I don't have a problem with this, it's resilience working as intended. But wheres the "double-edged sword" for healers? And would implementing a change to resilience (i.e. reducing healing received) make mana a more finite resource?

I can now see, from reading the responses, that making a change to resilience of this nature would be too difficult to balance. And I can also see now that it wouldn't make mana more of a finite resource at all, it'd just make healing too difficult. In the end, the issue of making mana finite in PvP is much more complicated than I had originally thought.

[Stanton Biston]

I'm not trying to be thick-headed here, but isn't resilience a "stat that makes you less powerful". I get that its intended purpose is survive-ability but by default it also makes us less powerful. To clarify, I'm fine with the way resilience works.

That's like saying stamina makes you less powerful. It doesn't. It gives you more health. You're reading powerful as a synonym for capable of doing damage.

If I stack dodge, stamina and parry, I'm tougher to kill. Gemming dodge into all my gem slots doesn't lower my capacity for damage below what it was with no gems.

Just like if I gem resilience into my slots, I don't do less damage than I did with no gem slots filled.

My interest was in the "double-edged sword"(for lack of a better word) that DPS face:
1). Less damage because they're wearing PvP gear (irrelevant, since healers do less healing for the same reason)
2). Less damage because their opponents are wearing PvP gear. I don't have a problem with this, it's resilience working as intended. But wheres the "double-edged sword" for healers? And would implementing a change to resilience (i.e. reducing healing received) make mana a more finite resource?

It wouldn't change regen or cost of spells. It only changes throughput.

I can now see, from reading the responses, that making a change to resilience of this nature would be too difficult to balance. And I can also see now that it wouldn't make mana more of a finite resource at all, it'd just make healing too difficult. In the end, the issue of making mana finite in PvP is much more complicated than I had originally thought.

Let's say healing got a 50% debuff upon entering the arena.

What about shields? Let's say for the purpose of argument that Disc and Holy got their shields halved too so we can ignore them. What about Shadow and all specs of Mages? What about other shield mechanics that I can't think of off the top of my head?