View Poll Results: Do you want a cross-server LFD tool in GW2?

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  • Yes

    67 31.75%
  • No

    144 68.25%
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post

    Nobody likes to shout in world chat, "LF 1 more..." while they have 3 PUGs standing around. Oh one guy dropped? LF2M.

    Clicking QUEUE via LFG/LFD interface and not be the person who has to actively seek others is a powerful psychological draw. MMOs are social games, but not all players will be socially..um, vigorous. Go-geters, etc.

    As I said above, historically 'LF-group browsers' do not work without automation of some kind and developers confirm this time & again.
    You don't really have any facts to back up any of this, but lets assume its all true (which I personally don't think it is, btw). The question then becomes, is it good to cater to these anti-social players in a game that's defining feature is its social aspect? Perhaps these players who do not enjoy the social aspect of games would be better off playing single-player games.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    You don't really have any facts to back up any of this, but lets assume its all true (which I personally don't think it is, btw).
    Um, go look up threads. A reading of LFG/LFD related threads on Aion, Rift and WoW forums does bear out the general sentiment as I described.

    They shy away from the responsibility of forming and leading a group.

    I can post links but are ya going read them? If so I'll post links to threads I read on the subject as best forums allow.

    The question then becomes, is it good to cater to these anti-social players in a game that's defining feature is its social aspect? Perhaps these players who do not enjoy the social aspect of games would be better off playing single-player games.
    I don't really care about this personally. Not a LFG/LFD type player. Rarely PUG- not my thing. So really don't care about them too much.

    Merely pointing out automated LFG/LFD tools are seen as a bullet point for MMOs now. And the smashing success LFG/LFD tools have been for games that implement those systems vis-a-vis non automated LFG options or older options.

    Although I think people whose livelihood depends on a large player base would say, "yes" to the latter part of your question. Heh.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2011-11-20 at 07:29 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    You don't really have any facts to back up any of this, but lets assume its all true (which I personally don't think it is, btw). The question then becomes, is it good to cater to these anti-social players in a game that's defining feature is its social aspect? Perhaps these players who do not enjoy the social aspect of games would be better off playing single-player games.
    no need for a degree in social sciences to see that everyone has its own way to relate with others, saying otherwise is nonsense.
    if you happen to have tens of thousands of "friends" in every game you play, good for you, but it's not like it's the case for everyone.

    and if you think about it a moment, Anet sort of made a few things that eventualy helps all the "solo" players in the outside world.
    you don't need to be in a group to be rewarded for :
    -DEs
    -minion slaying : while you may not get something to loot everytime, as long as you damaged some mob you get a chance to loot something from it and are assured to get xp.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Um, go look up threads. A reading of LFG/LFD related threads on Aion, Rift and WoW forums does bear out the general sentiment as I described.

    They shy away from the responsibility of forming and leading a group.

    I can post links but are ya going read them? If so I'll post links to threads I read on the subject as best forums allow.


    I don't really care about this personally. Not a LFG/LFD type player. Rarely PUG- not my thing. So really don't care about them too much.

    Merely pointing out automated LFG/LFD tools are seen as a bullet point for MMOs now. And the smashing success LFG/LFD tools have been for games that implement those systems vis-a-vis non automated LFG options or older options.

    Although I think people whose livelihood depends on a large player base would say, "yes" to the latter part of your question. Heh.
    '

    Im not questioning that some players shy away from the responsibility, im saying that it might be unwise to cater the game to such players.

    What criteria do you use to define LFD tools as a "smash success"? The fact that people use them? Of course they use them, they are easy. Easy is not always good. I hated the LFD tool in WoW, but I used it rather then look for people in trade for the simple reason that no one was interested in forming a manual group anymore, in large part because people wanted the free teleport to the dungeon rather then having to fly there. I was a user of the LFD tool and contributor to their statistical popularity, yet I was strongly opposed to it.
    Popularity is a dangerous tool to use to evaluate a system that doesn't have any real competitor. Players will always take the path of least resistance, and the LFD tool is most definitely that. But I think this is a case where players need to be saved from themselves; the fast, easy convenience is so destructive to the community that its simply not worth it, imo.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-20 at 08:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sacrypheyes View Post
    no need for a degree in social sciences to see that everyone has its own way to relate with others, saying otherwise is nonsense.
    if you happen to have tens of thousands of "friends" in every game you play, good for you, but it's not like it's the case for everyone.
    Yes everyone has different ways of socializing...but if you don't like to socialize at all then an MMO probably just isn't the right game for you.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Im not questioning that some players shy away from the responsibility, im saying that it might be unwise to cater the game to such players.
    Again, I don't personally care about this aspect. Never had a bad LFG experience and don't dabble in PUG groups very often.

    What criteria do you use to define LFD tools as a "smash success"? The fact that people use them?
    Of course because people use them. They are created to service the needs of the player base.

    When Rift introduced their LFG tool their developers reported the traffic of players in dungeons and completing dungeons had more than doubled. Aion and EQ2's added auto group tools also increased the number of dungeon participants by a large degree. Just to name a few well known sub based MMOs.

    Easy is not always good. <snip>
    Just POV. Not all see it as such. Doubt developers interested in making money would ignore an LFG addition if the player base wished it so. Being concerned over LFG systems as a "good" or "bad" thing seems kinda silly.

  6. #46
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    '

    Im not questioning that some players shy away from the responsibility, im saying that it might be unwise to cater the game to such players.

    What criteria do you use to define LFD tools as a "smash success"? The fact that people use them? Of course they use them, they are easy. Easy is not always good. I hated the LFD tool in WoW, but I used it rather then look for people in trade for the simple reason that no one was interested in forming a manual group anymore, in large part because people wanted the free teleport to the dungeon rather then having to fly there. I was a user of the LFD tool and contributor to their statistical popularity, yet I was strongly opposed to it.
    Popularity is a dangerous tool to use to evaluate a system that doesn't have any real competitor. Players will always take the path of least resistance, and the LFD tool is most definitely that. But I think this is a case where players need to be saved from themselves; the fast, easy convenience is so destructive to the community that its simply not worth it, imo.
    I challenge your notion that people weren't interested in manually forming groups. Most people I knew joined the LFD with guildies or friends if they could. And I regularly saw (and joined) server based pugs. So, if you really detested the LFD-tool so much, you weren't trying hard enough to form regular old PuGs.
    And as I stated above, the effect LFD had on the community was heavily overrated.
    And there are basically two options, which is either a LFD-tool or a LFG channel. The advantages of a tool outway those of a channel for most players. As said above, people don't take the initiative to start inviting other people, so most are just stuck in the channel. Some will be spamming LFG, but hardly anyone will go LFM, because they didn't invite anyone in the first place.
    How does this apply to GW2: In Guild Wars 2 they could easily make the tool server-based, since the major reason to expand beyond server-level is the lack of healers and/or tanks, which is a non-issue in GW2. The (perceived) downside of such a tool (the impact on the server community) is removed, so everyone can be a happy panda.

    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Yes everyone has different ways of socializing...but if you don't like to socialize at all then an MMO probably just isn't the right game for you.
    No-one said they didn't like socializing. But for some people it doesn't come very naturally. I generally won't talk to people with no reason, both in game as in real life. And to people I don't know I don't say very much, until I have good reason to. I'm pretty sure the same goes to a lot of people. They like the social aspect of an MMO, but are "stuck" in a small group of friends and/or guildies and won't really break out on their own.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    but if you don't like to socialize at all then an MMO probably just isn't the right game for you.
    First of all, there's a lot of content in GW2 that can be explored solo, meaning it is already close to a single-player game if you wish. Saying "if you don't play it the way I tell you to then you should get out of the game!" is also terribly rude and selfish. Secondly, no one said these people don't like to socialize at all, so you're just going for strawman arguments here when you can't think of any better arguments.
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    And as I stated above, the effect LFD had on the community was heavily overrated.
    Actually.. it's other way around. LFD tool is devastating, server communities are just ripped apart - especially if it is cross server. Thing is, if you run a dungeon using LFD tool you are almost 100% anonymous and well.. that means there is no consequences for acting like a rTard. It also means, that even if you do good no one will remember that or even try to run a dungeon with you again in future. In "no lfd tool" game, your actions matter. People remember you and by that you create connections, it is also perfect way to find new potential guild members. People who behave out of line learn very fast that without changing the attitude they will have hard time getting that dungeon done. I'm playing wow since launch.. I've seen how degrading effect LFD tool had on server community, basically there was no community after that...

  9. #49
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Those systems historically don't work. It been said and proven that unless you allow players to "click a button" and get a group pre-configured they are unwilling to use those bulletin board systems.

    "People enjoy grouping. But don't like forming groups themselves." -- Scott Hartsman

    There has to be a sort of passive element to grouping systems. Or it's ignorable "LFM FOW!!!" chat box spam to most players.
    I want to disagree. As WoW is the only MMO I truly played more (played Rift as well, but can't talk about a month and a half experience) I can say it worked fine in it.

    I remember in Wrath that you just queued looked through who is available and whispered people. I never once was thought to be the leader on my dps chars. And on my tank chars, no matter if I made the group or got invited myself, I was almost always(like 90% of time) expected to lead. So I did!

    So yes, it worked. Oh, did it take longer to make groups? yes, that it did, why lie? Id took longer because it was "first whisper, first served" so you could have stood 5 hours looking for a tank, if someone else whispered him/her first, bad luck. That was the biggest drawback.

    Quote Originally Posted by GayGirlie View Post
    There is a certain amount of responsibility and expectations from you when you're the one forming the group. Like e.g. you're expected to know the dungeon and guide the group through. That is already a deterrent enough for people who very much dislike leading positions, but if you don't meet the expectations then you easily get abuse which is yet another deterrent. Atleast with an LFD system you're not the one forming the group and as such you're not expected to lead it, either, and that's what makes it so much easier for many people.
    No, sorry, I disagree. I formed tons of groups both in BC and Wrath with my rogue and when I didn't knew anything I asked at start of dungeon about it, only remember once getting a jerk who told me I'm a noob or something, and if I can only remember once then it means the actual amount can't have been so large anyway. And in fact I always expected the tank to lead.

    Now if nobody knew at all what's in the dungeon, then yes, it could be a problem, but that's why guilds were invented, and general chat and whispers or whatever they'll be called in Guild Wars.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    No, sorry, I disagree. I formed tons of groups both in BC and Wrath with my rogue and when I didn't knew anything I asked at start of dungeon about it, only remember once getting a jerk who told me I'm a noob or something, and if I can only remember once then it means the actual amount can't have been so large anyway.
    Perhaps the people on your server had different mentality or something, but on my realm you got sh*tloads of abuse every time you showed you didn't know what to do, and if the tank didn't know what to do or did something wrong it was always on the shoulders of the one who made the group. And since there's no tank role in GW2 there's even better chances for the one forming the group to be seen as the one who needs to know the stuff that's going on.
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  11. #51
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    How does this apply to GW2: In Guild Wars 2 they could easily make the tool server-based, since the major reason to expand beyond server-level is the lack of healers and/or tanks, which is a non-issue in GW2. The (perceived) downside of such a tool (the impact on the server community) is removed, so everyone can be a happy panda.
    Sure, I can agree with that. I can not agree on a world LFD automatic tool though.

    Quote Originally Posted by GayGirlie View Post
    First of all, there's a lot of content in GW2 that can be explored solo, meaning it is already close to a single-player game if you wish. Saying "if you don't play it the way I tell you to then you should get out of the game!" is also terribly rude and selfish. Secondly, no one said these people don't like to socialize at all, so you're just going for strawman arguments here when you can't think of any better arguments.
    Yes, there is, so you have what to do and don't even need to do dungeons. Also, if you just want it for the lore, then there's a solo mode so to say as I understood.
    In the end the game is a MMO, as in to be played with other people. If you don't want to do that, you're not playing the game as it is intended, and as such it's not the game for you. This is not a rude thing to say, if you don't like to group up, a MMO is not for you. As in, if you like to group up with people, a single-player RPG is not for you. It's just a characteristic of a game that doesn't fit your demands.

  12. #52
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    This issue has already been resolved earlier in this thread. There wont be a need for a LFD tool because of how easy it will be to manually put a group together due to scaling and no holy trinity. The success of LFD cannot be measured by opinions alone, but even to this day it's still not received well by much of the WoW community. It's really not the tools fault though, but players in cataclysm with overinflated egos, and the fact that getting into high level cata content is hard as hell unless you're leet and in a raiding guild full of douche bags. If cataclysms content was Wrath scaled, I'm sure you'd see the social aspect still in the game.

    Even after LFD was added in wrath, no one really started complaining about it until a few months after cata when it got a revamp. We can sit here and argue that it was a good tool, but in all honesty, it was a terrible idea, and Blizzard shot WoW in the face by adding it. Also saying "no one liked looking for a group in chat" is a pretty flaccid argument, if that's the case, then no one would have liked WoW or even EQ in the first place. The only time people stopped "liking" looking for a group is after LFD was implemented. They stopped liking it because there was an easier alternative to grouping (LFD) and thus looking for a group in chat became 10 times harder. Pretty much that argument is a donkey punch in rational thought's blowhole.

  13. #53
    You can freely transfer servers in GW2. I don't see how an LFD system would damage a server community when you can change servers with no penalty.

    On the other hand though, a LFD tool is simply not needed in GW2 with the removal of the trinity system.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    You can freely transfer servers in GW2. I don't see how an LFD system would damage a server community when you can change servers with no penalty.

    On the other hand though, a LFD tool is simply not needed in GW2 with the removal of the trinity system.
    i am pretty sure there will be a penalty/restriction to server transfers for the sake of WvWvW according to the devs.
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  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GayGirlie View Post
    Perhaps the people on your server had different mentality or something, but on my realm you got sh*tloads of abuse every time you showed you didn't know what to do, and if the tank didn't know what to do or did something wrong it was always on the shoulders of the one who made the group. And since there's no tank role in GW2 there's even better chances for the one forming the group to be seen as the one who needs to know the stuff that's going on.
    ^ this sounds like my server after wrath hit...

    OT: idk about you guys but one reason I'd like to have no LFD system at all, is because you can't black list total ass holes. Like the people gay girlie described were all black listed on my server pre wrath(idk why more showed up). IMO it made the experiences better because you never ha that egotistical tool ruining everyone else experience and pointing balance on someone else at the first mistake they make whether you make it through the encounter or not.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-20 at 08:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    i am pretty sure there will be a penalty/restriction to server transfers for the sake of WvWvW according to the devs.
    The "penalty" is that you can not benefit from any advantage WvWvW gave that server, and I don't think you can participate in WvWvW either. This is supposed to last a week and I think you can only do 1 server transfer a week, don't quote me on the last part though!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    OT: idk about you guys but one reason I'd like to have no LFD system at all, is because you can't black list total ass holes.
    You can, atleast in WoW: just add the person to ignore list and you'll never get to same group with that person anymore.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-20 at 04:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    In the end the game is a MMO, as in to be played with other people. If you don't want to do that, you're not playing the game as it is intended, and as such it's not the game for you. This is not a rude thing to say, if you don't like to group up, a MMO is not for you. As in, if you like to group up with people, a single-player RPG is not for you. It's just a characteristic of a game that doesn't fit your demands.
    No, it being an MMO means that it's possible for you to socialize, not that you have to; there's plenty of aspects to GW2 that you're free to choose to partake in, it doesn't mean you HAVE to. Like e.g. PvP: not everyone likes PvP, but since it's there you obviously aren't playing the game "as intended" if you don't do it, per your argument. And you HAVE to partake in every single minigame too because, well, they're in the game and you're not playing "as intended" if you don't, right?

    And again, the argument wasn't about not having to be in a group at all to do dungeons. I atleast never claimed anything even remotely like that.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-20 at 04:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    We can sit here and argue that it was a good tool, but in all honesty, it was a terrible idea, and Blizzard shot WoW in the face by adding it.
    Try telling that to people on low-pop realms.

    Also saying "no one liked looking for a group in chat" is a pretty flaccid argument, if that's the case, then no one would have liked WoW or even EQ in the first place.
    Yeah, there's nothing more to WoW and EQ than doing dungeons, right? Oh, wait, there's quite a lot more..
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  17. #57
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    we can solve the problem of not having LFG by all becoming friends :3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  18. #58
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    Try telling that to people on low-pop realms.
    Free server xfers, or payed server xfer: Since everyone is looking at facts so much in this thread.

    Yeah, there's nothing more to WoW and EQ than doing dungeons, right? Oh, wait, there's quite a lot more..
    Let me clarify: I was speaking in terms of dungeons. That's what my whole post was about.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    Free server xfers, or payed server xfer: Since everyone is looking at facts so much in this thread.
    Free realm transfers aren't always available when you need them, and having to pay real money just to get to dungeon groups is a horrible idea in comparison to a cross-realm LFG tool.

    Let me clarify: I was speaking in terms of dungeons. That's what my whole post was about.
    No, you were saying no one would've liked WoW or EQ at all. See the "no one would have liked WoW or even EQ in the first place." quote there? Well, there happens to be a lot more to both games than just dungeons, so trying to equate that people who don't like manually yelling in chat trying to get groups wouldn't like the rest of the game is a fallacy.

    You could even say that no one would've liked _dungeons_ in WoW or EQ because of that, but again that would fall flat on its face: how hard it is to get to the dungeon itself doesn't correlate with how enjoyable the dungeon itself is once you are inside.
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  20. #60
    i would say essential.

    its so annoying spamming chat lfg/m.. just reading it is tiresome. ive done it for a long time in wow and it was horrible i dont want to do it ever again. EVER.
    cant minimize cant do anything else while searching. you just have to sit there a read text until your eyes bleed
    even without holy trinity, lets say u want to do a dungeon in the middle of the night. and theres probably people interested but maybe they r not reading at that moment..

    with lfg tool, if theres people who want the group will be formed! meanwhile you can absolutely forget about that and do some events or whatever without having to read the spam chat

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