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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Aside from CoH/PoH spam (which doesn't work very well in 10m, when you have a druid spamming rejuv/wg aswell), what can holy do better than disc Themos?.. I know holy can do "just fine", but why settle for that when you can be exceptional as disc? With the way rapture works atm, you have almost endless mana, using inefficient spells to make certain people don't die is not an issue as disc, because mana regen is over the top. Doing that as holy would cripple you in the long run.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    Aside from CoH/PoH spam (which doesn't work very well in 10m, when you have a druid spamming rejuv/wg aswell), what can holy do better than disc Themos?..
    Well for starters, Disc is much more reliant on PoH than Holy is for AoE healing and that's the spell that's much less useful on 10 man unless it's a time raid damage event, and in those cases both holy and Disc perform well. CoH is perfectly fine on 10 man, I have no idea why you think it's lousy while a druid casting the HoT version is better? It's an instant smart heal that nails 60% of the raid.

    Overall, I'm definitely not spamming CoH/PoH on 10 man, I'm in Serenity most of the time and on pretty much any fight I heal, Greater Heal is my top spell. Factor in Binding Heal, Renew refreshes, EoL, and all the other junk in holy's kit, and there's a button for any situation to hit. The trick to Holy is knowing when to use which spell, and lot of people make the wrong choice, imo.

    While a Resto druid is blanketing HoTs, they aren't getting anyone too low in health by doing so and anyone too high in health is getting overhealed up the waz. Direct heals are the way to go as Holy in a 10 man.


    I know holy can do "just fine", but why settle for that when you can be exceptional as disc? With the way rapture works atm, you have almost endless mana, using inefficient spells to make certain people don't die is not an issue as disc, because mana regen is over the top. Doing that as holy would cripple you in the long run.
    ./shrug

    If mana is such a harsh issue for me, then why am I not using the heroic spirit neck (i passed to the shaman on the last one) and tier shoulders?
    Why do I have Power Torrent instead of Heartsong?

    Why did I cast 74 Flash Heals on my last Heroic Baleroc kill that took 5 mins and 53 seconds?
    (10 of those were SoL procs and I only cast 37 Greater Heals)

    I don't know about you, but I consider Holy's mana efficiency more than "just fine". All the crap I hear about how bad it is -- is absolute FUD.
    Last edited by Themos; 2011-11-23 at 11:29 AM.

  3. #23
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    You didn't answer the question. If you ignore poh/coh, what can holy do that disc can't do better?...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    I don't know about you, but I consider Holy's mana efficiency more than "just fine". All the crap I hear about how bad it is -- is absolute FUD.
    You are one of the few people to think so tho.

    I also have no idea how on earth you can claim that Holy performs as well as Disc on Baleroc on all fights. Disc's single target efficiency is much higher, Disc's scaling is better and Rapture is a far superior regen mechanism than Holy Concentration since regen and throughput are the same for Disc, while Holy has to sacrifice throughput for regen.

    You being able to heal Baleroc HC as Holy is no proof that people who are already struggling should try this approach. As a matter of interest, have you healed it as Disc at all?


    Overall, I'm definitely not spamming CoH/PoH on 10 man, I'm in Serenity most of the time and on pretty much any fight I heal, Greater Heal is my top spell. Factor in Binding Heal, Renew refreshes, EoL, and all the other junk in holy's kit, and there's a button for any situation to hit. The trick to Holy is knowing when to use which spell, and lot of people make the wrong choice, imo.
    So in essence you are saying that people who have issues with Holy's regen and single target efficiency can't play Holy, or are "pressing the wrong buttons". Which is pretty offensive as it indicates that a majority of priest players are incompetent.
    The trick to any healing class is to know when to press the right buttons, that doesn't change whether you are Disc or Holy. Gheal is a useful spell as holy, but it's more efficient as Disc, so claiming that you'd do better with mainly casting Gheal as Holy as opposed to Disc seems completely counter intuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    You didn't answer the question. If you ignore poh/coh, what can holy do that disc can't do better?...
    A good question.

    Also, if PoH is bad for Disc in ten man, what can a Holy priest offer on raid healing in ten man that a Disc priest cannot? CoH? More renew? I really can't figure out why PoH is bad in ten mans but good in 25 mans unless there is something really obvious I am missing? Or how this should make Holy priests better than Disc priests in ten man, since Holy uses PoH as an AoE heal as well.

    Thy only real difference is CoH and while it is good, it really isn't a make or break spell that makes Holy superior.
    Last edited by Laseen; 2011-11-23 at 01:36 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    You didn't answer the question. If you ignore poh/coh, what can holy do that disc can't do better?...
    I did answer it, you just aren't digesting it. Holy can very effectively and very efficiently single target heal without much worry over mana. Your biggest rebuttal/con toward Holy is their lack of mana, and I countered that FUD in spades. As long as you can squeeze in a Hymn/Fiend combo in somewhere, it's all butter and that's only necessary on the most mana intense fights.

    Single target healing isn't "just fine" -- it's brilliant:

    There's burst healing on a short cycle time = PoM/Fhealx2/Gheal/Serenity is excellent burst, especially with EoL and Renew ticking for 'free'.
    There's mana efficiency = which I alluded to above, but I can spell it out further. I can spam Fhealx2/Gheal for 6 mins and not oom. If I play a bit more conservatively, I can do it indefinitely b/c I'd easily last between fiends and hymns.
    There's buffer = Stronger PoM, a Renew, EoL, and *gasp* Holy can even PWShield if it needs.
    There's utility = Body and Soul has been very sexy in Firelands on nearly every boss.LW is neat on very hectic fights like Bethtilac p1 down below and Alysrazor
    There is a tank CD = Guardian Spirit works really well once your non-prot pally ilk tanks acclimate to the idea of a killing blow.

    I mean, what do you want, a pot of gold? Sometimes a bag of nickels does the job just fine. Healing is a fine art, and I have plenty of tools.
    The only thing Holy has been really lacking is a proper raid cooldown b/c DH currently hits like a wet noodle. And that's being directly addressed in 4.3

  6. #26
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    I don't know what sort of gear you are in, but I certainly cannot spam FHx2 + Gheal for 6 minutes and not oom.

  7. #27
    Equipped I'm at 383 ilvl gear and my gear favors Mastery. FHealx2/Gheal isn't as bad as you think it is b/c of Serendipity. Don't get me wrong it can be very rough if I dont get a full hymn, at which point I'd need to pop a Concentration Potion, but this is the extreme of extremes spamming my mana in the worst possible way conceivable.

    A much impressive feat for the spec isn't Baleroc, imo, it's being able to heal the tank+2 DPS up top during Bethtilac. I'm able to keep all four of us alive without massacring my cooldowns and mana pool for p2. I'm much more impressed with how well the spec performs on that fight than anything else in Firelands.

    Let's be real, Baleroc is more about RNG countdown passing the debuff to a healer than anything else. I don't consider that fight a true healer test. It's relatively myopic healing mechanics. You're either spamming A or B, and there is very minimal movement and spell choice.
    Last edited by Themos; 2011-11-23 at 01:50 PM.

  8. #28
    I don't understand how you can be so 'pro awesome holy is brilliant' and yet 3man heal firelands 10hc...Doesn't everyone 2man heal it these days?

    I'd consider myself a pretty good player and my highest HPS on baleroc (25hc granted) is around 27/28k, that was without a Disc priest absorbing damage so it was just raw healing up after hits. The same fight as Disc (which I usually play) is usually 45/47k+ depending on RNG of decimate hits/dodges without even remotely caring about efficiency meaning we can drop healers for more dps - making the fight shorter and shard rotations easier in case of bad rng with countdown spreading torment.

    The only reason you would play holy > disc is if you enjoy it more. And fair play to you if you want to. However, you cannot argue holy is better than disc at tank healing, especially on fights like baleroc where absorbs are so overpowered it's not even funny.

    The big factor for me in which I play disc over holy is that if I have excess mana, I can deliberately overheal on PoH and store the DA buffer for the next aoe phase. This is especially great since the first few hits of an aoe (alys burn phase, beth P2) usually have a slight delay on healers reacting to it, Disc gives a nice cushion for this and with sufficient mastery/haste, can even match or exceed Holy's aoe healing in cluster moments.

    Although post nerfs, it doesn't really matter I guess...everything is faceroll. Holy is fine, and you can clear firelands np. Disc is superior if you care enough about what will make the fight easier for the group - that includes cooldowns as well as DA stacking.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by NoHealsForYou View Post
    I don't understand how you can be so 'pro awesome holy is brilliant' and yet 3man heal firelands 10hc...Doesn't everyone 2man heal it these days?
    I'm the third swing healer, on fights we 2 heal I only do the healing if one of the others isn't around. And it does happen often enough.
    I've 2 healed plenty of fights in there on heroic.

    I'd consider myself a pretty good player and my highest HPS on baleroc (25hc granted) is around 27/28k, that was without a Disc priest absorbing damage so it was just raw healing up after hits. The same fight as Disc (which I usually play) is usually 45/47k+ depending on RNG of decimate hits/dodges without even remotely caring about efficiency meaning we can drop healers for more dps - making the fight shorter and shard rotations easier in case of bad rng with countdown spreading torment.
    HPS values can be extremely misleading. Any spec that has a HoT ticking brings down the overall average significantly if you have a lull and aren't healing.
    Case in point, my average on my last Baleroc kill was 26K and my highest spike was 94K. My biggest lull on that fight was where I hymned, and I doing sub 10K HPS during that period. Disc priests have ZERO HoTs unless they renew, and most forgo it. This inflates the HPS value, but if you look at total effective healing and divide by total time instead of whatever their activity is, it's a far different story.

    You see effects like that on DPS meters. Where someone who did most total damage on a single target boss fight has lower DPS than everyone else.
    An excellent example is Supremus. Shadow priests rocked the hell out of that fight and their "DPS" was always lowest.


    The only reason you would play holy > disc is if you enjoy it more. And fair play to you if you want to. However, you cannot argue holy is better than disc at tank healing
    I never said no such thing. I've always stuck to my guns and stated Holy can stand on its own two feet just fine. Others are constantly bringing Disc into the comparison, and I'm saying Holy keeps up fine.

    especially on fights like baleroc where absorbs are so overpowered it's not even funny.
    How so? how about throwing real numbers back my way instead of 'ZMG BUBBLES' rationale.
    What % of your healing came from PWShield and DA? Does the DA compare to EoL %s?
    Does my extra other direct healing completely counter PWShield?

    Decimation and tank healing overall is the least scary part of that fight. Healing the crystals drains more mana, and countdown RNG is what wipes.



    The big factor for me in which I play disc over holy is that if I have excess mana, I can deliberately overheal on PoH and store the DA buffer for the next aoe phase. This is especially great since the first few hits of an aoe (alys burn phase, beth P2) usually have a slight delay on healers reacting to it
    Any halfway decent healer is prepping heals as the raid damage is about to hit. It doesn't take a genius to keep an eye on Alysrazor's and Domo's energy bars.
    It's no different then you prepping DA on everyone. I'll swap to Santuary, plop down some holy ground spooge, put a lightwell next to the clump, PoM someone, and then precast a PoH. /so hard

    Disc gives a nice cushion for this and with sufficient mastery/haste, can even match or exceed Holy's aoe healing in cluster moments.
    Being able to snipe heals away from other healers doesn't make you a better healer, it makes Disc the spec to cheese on meters. I've done it plenty, especially in WotLK when you can truely snipe with PWS spam. I practically solo healed Ignis in Ulduar as Disc on 25 man b/c of it. That didnt make all the other specs and classes horrible, far from it.

    A good healing spec is one that basically reliable at keeping people alive, and Holy delivers. You just need to keep everyone alive, the rest is gravy. :>

    Although post nerfs, it doesn't really matter I guess...everything is faceroll. Holy is fine, and you can clear firelands np. Disc is superior if you care enough about what will make the fight easier for the group -
    Ironically, only 6% of raiders have even killed Shannox on normal mode. This content even post "faceroll nerfs" is rough for most WoW players.
    My raid hasn't had an issue with my being Holy at all, my spec isn't the weak cog.

    The only thing Disc has had the edge on this tier is a raid cooldown.

    that includes cooldowns as well as DA stacking.
    While those are pluses, Disc has cons as well. Let's not pretend they don't exist.
    Last edited by Themos; 2011-11-23 at 02:47 PM.

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