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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire themightysven's Avatar
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    Token Tears and Rare Weapon drop: a Raiding Loot Proposal

    So We've all heard stories of (and possibly been victims of) that time when the only tokens that dropped all night were Vanqs and you didn't have anyone who could use them (meanwhile your priest is still rocking the 346 shoulders)

    Or maybe the one drop that's central to your playstyle (a la a ranged weapon with decent iLvl for hunters) never drops until you bench all hunters.

    So, proposal time: (and I'm sure this has been proposed before, but I've never seen it talked about, so here it is)

    This proposal uses Firelands as the example.
    Each Boss drops at least one of their quest item in addition to their normal loot

    Off of Shannox- Quest item "Shannox's Horn" that can be redeemed (depending on class) for a Gun, Bow, Xbow, Wand, Shield, or Off-hand (weapon or frill)
    If you're a hunter, the quest rewards are (clearly) Gun, Bow, or Xbow. The Gun is Mastery oriented, the Bow is Haste oriented and the Xbow is Crit oriented (to offset dwarf and troll racials wanting their weapon to be Crit)
    If you're a Mage then you have a selection of three wands or the off-hand frill
    etc.

    Off of Ragnaros- Quest item "Molten Corruption" that can be redeemed for a Main or Two-hand Weapon (again depending on class)

    Off of the rest- Quest items that can be redeemed by any class for a piece of tier gear
    Staghelm- "Staghelm's Diadem" Head Slot
    Beth'tilac- "Ember Spinnerets" Hand Slot
    Rhyolith- "Rocky Carapace" Chest Slot
    Baleroc- "Shimmering Greaves" Leg Slot
    Alysrazor- "Glowing Mantle" Shoulder Slot

    no more tier gear for Valor points, instead a set of three "near tier" pieces (Feet, Waist, Wrist) that have a separate 2 piece bonus, and a three piece bonus that lets them count as a piece of the associated tier.
    This can also be applied to Heroic Dungeons at the starting tier. For Cata:

    Erudax- "Still-Quivering Tentacle"-Leg Slot
    Siamat- "Ephemeral Clouds"- Shoulder Slot
    Vanessa Van Cleef- "Poisoner's Pouches"- Hand Slot
    Rajh- "Shining Eye" Head Slot
    Lord Godfrey-"Gunpowderer's Robes" Chest Slot

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-28 at 08:12 PM ----------

    This way there will never be a "token" that can't be used until everyone is fully kitted out

    Check my post on page 3 about thread derailing on 10v25man people. Please discuss the OPs suggestion, not 10v25. -Azshira
    Last edited by Azshira; 2012-01-30 at 12:58 PM.
    Ewok Sith Lords are all about Agility

  2. #2
    Field Marshal
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    Decent idea.

    I think its a decent idea, however I also think that people will gear up too quickly.

    I always thought that there should be a mechanic that recognizes everyones class and spec in the raid and atleast have every piece be something someone in the raid can use. For instance if its a 10m, 2 pces that 2 of those 10 could use will drop. No chance of getting something that nobody can use. This may also lead to gearing up too quickly but at the very least I think it would be great for heroics because that is what they are used for and the new heroics have some terrible drop rates. I met a druid who ran End Time 70 times, never getting the pce he needed from it.

    Even my shaman still needs a helmet and shoulders from them and I have ran them a ton of times.

  3. #3
    While I'm not really sold on the additional loot drops for weapons and the like off of every boss, I love this idea.
    no more tier gear for Valor points, instead a set of three "near tier" pieces (Feet, Waist, Wrist) that have a separate 2 piece bonus, and a three piece bonus that lets them count as a piece of the associated tier.
    Working with the special bonuses that come with tier is one of the most interesting parts about the game, since a good tier bonus can drastically change the way you play. If we had multiple bonuses that we had to pick and choose depending on the benefits or the fight, that could be cool.

    Heroic Recruitment -- Hersh's multi-PoV kill vids. -- Raids & Dungeons & Hunter kitty
    no one huntars like gaston

  4. #4
    Your suggestion is straight up terrible and stinks of entitlement. You want bosses to drop an extra piece of loot that's guaranteed to be useful to someone. Then what, after a few weeks when no one needs this extra loot? Can people start demanding that if they get two or three of these items that they can exchange it for the BiS? Or will people just complain that it's more loot being vendored or D-Eed?

    And what of 10 and 25 man differences? 10 mans will get 1 extra item, and 25s will get 3? Putting 25 man loot acquisition further ahead of 10 mans. Or maybe make 25 mans give only 1 extra as well, so people start complaining they "have" to raid 10s to gear up early on.

    If your hunter's ability to contribute to the group is made or broken by the weapon they have equipped, they probably weren't that great a hunter. That, or there are issues with your entire group make up that won't be resolved with one extra weapon.

    Though, if you like your suggestion, you'll love mine. I propose bosses drop a BiS piece of loot for every person in the raid in addition to the regular loot drops. These BiS drops will take your current spec and equipped loot into consideration to guarantee everyone gets upgrades. Currently still in the planning stages is having a Blizzard employee make a personal visit to your home/office/net cafe to pat you on the back and speak words of encouragement to you every time you successfully slot a gem of the appropriate colour into a socket so as to receive the socket bonus - whether you're stacking agi on your Priest or not.

    This is not what helpful criticism looks like. If you don't like an idea, you can say so, but being insulting is a no.
    Last edited by Herecius; 2012-01-29 at 03:21 AM.

  5. #5
    I don't agree with they token system you proposed but I do believe there needs to be something done about it. 2 weeks ago we entered dragon soul and cleared 6/8 on heroic and at the end of the night we had 2 tier upgrades and 2 item upgrades. That's 4/16 for useful items because we have the same items dropping every week. I think a system that identifies raid ids to avoid things that drop every single week (as long as loot is tied to ID). If it identifies the raid id every 2 weeks you can get repeat drops but at least there would be a higher chance of something useful dropping. I do not feel every single week it needs to drop 16 items we can use but 4/16 is pretty bad, but hey when you farm if for 20 weeks it all generally works out.

  6. #6
    Simple solution. Put a vendor at the start of the raid instance that will once per week trade one tier token for one token of the same slot with a different type. I.E. you get vanq tokens all night you can choose to have 1 redeemed for conq or prot.

    The idea of a quest item drop for every boss is just not even appealing. Instead of RNG you just wait for the quest item. I'd say at least with what i'm saying saying here tthat RNG is still a huge factor but it allows you to smooth over the bad patches a little. Which is much better than just having every boss drop currency or quest items and go from there.

  7. #7
    im ok with RNG, not just too much RNG, but not really bothered, its annoying that since DS dropped, i've only recieved my tier leggings yesterday, we have been clearing normal since 2-3rd week since DS came out (yeah we are just pretty casual). but had zero drops of that specific tier, luckily most of my guildies had their leggings drop from BH,lol, its not a biggie, its just frustrating to wait for almost 2 months just to complete your 4 pc.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryve View Post

    And what of 10 and 25 man differences? 10 mans will get 1 extra item, and 25s will get 3? Putting 25 man loot acquisition further ahead of 10 mans. Or maybe make 25 mans give only 1 extra as well, so people start complaining they "have" to raid 10s to gear up early on.
    It is already easier to gear up in 10mans...
    Anyways I think the way and speed loot is distributed is absolutely fine although I the that other idea for the other slots is somewhat neat.

  9. #9
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    It is already easier to gear up in 10mans...
    Anyways I think the way and speed loot is distributed is absolutely fine although I the that other idea for the other slots is somewhat neat.
    There u are wrong, the chance u'd get something that noone needs or noone wants are alot bigger in 10mans so alot more items gets trashed.
    Unless the 10man have the perfect setup/classbalance wich they rarely do

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by bowjob88 View Post
    There u are wrong, the chance u'd get something that noone needs or noone wants are alot bigger in 10mans so alot more items gets trashed.
    Unless the 10man have the perfect setup/classbalance wich they rarely do
    Might have been the case but since 1 token drops for 10 people vs the 2 for 25... it's not that hard.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2012-01-29 at 07:14 AM.

  11. #11
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryve View Post
    Though, if you like your suggestion, you'll love mine. I propose bosses drop a BiS piece of loot for every person in the raid in addition to the regular loot drops. These BiS drops will take your current spec and equipped loot into consideration to guarantee everyone gets upgrades. Currently still in the planning stages is having a Blizzard employee make a personal visit to your home/office/net cafe to pat you on the back and speak words of encouragement to you every time you successfully slot a gem of the appropriate colour into a socket so as to receive the socket bonus - whether you're stacking agi on your Priest or not.
    I'll give a +1 for this post, not to be negative, but who is the nerd on mmo who made it a rule that you can't use your own wording n' disagree with a topic? The above is in no way more insulting then the idea itself.! It seems all the "constructive" posts for the last 6+ months all evolve around making this game sink more n' more into instant gratification.
    As far as I can tell, this idea is no more then advanced LFR idea, quicker n' easier loot.., what I don't get really, is why the sort of people who can't work for stuff isn't just playing some browser game instead, at least there time isn't an issue!

    Tip; What keeps people coming back to the same boss multiple times isn't the kill, its the loot.., make that a 100% drop chance n' the content is cut by 50% already.

  12. #12
    I think a guild should be able to trade in say 3 Vanq tokens for a conq of the same slot.
    Similarly for trinkets and etc would be nice. 8 weeks of the same useless drops from bosses isn't fun.

    But Blizzard thinks that random to the point of never seeing the items at all is "fun".

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-29 at 02:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Might have been the case but since 1 token drops for 10 people vs the 2 for 25... it's not that hard.
    Try doing the same boss for an entire content patch and only ever seeing the same tier token.

  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UunaPriest View Post
    I think a guild should be able to trade in say 3 Vanq tokens for a conq of the same slot.
    Similarly for trinkets and etc would be nice. 8 weeks of the same useless drops from bosses isn't fun.

    But Blizzard thinks that random to the point of never seeing the items at all is "fun".

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-29 at 02:30 AM ----------



    Try doing the same boss for an entire content patch and only ever seeing the same tier token.
    I like your idea. The OP`s idea is okay, but it would make gearing fairly non-random. I like the idea to be able to change the not needed loot you have got several times into loot you need.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    It is already easier to gear up in 10mans...
    Anyways I think the way and speed loot is distributed is absolutely fine although I the that other idea for the other slots is somewhat neat.
    It's easier to gear up in 25 mans, 25 mans give lolbonusloot per boss. 25 mans acquire legendaries faster. Please tell me in what way it is "easier" to gear up in 10 mans, unless your 25 man group is heavily class/token stacking beyond reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    I'll give a +1 for this post, not to be negative, but who is the nerd on mmo who made it a rule that you can't use your own wording n' disagree with a topic? The above is in no way more insulting then the idea itself.! It seems all the "constructive" posts for the last 6+ months all evolve around making this game sink more n' more into instant gratification.
    As far as I can tell, this idea is no more then advanced LFR idea, quicker n' easier loot.., what I don't get really, is why the sort of people who can't work for stuff isn't just playing some browser game instead, at least there time isn't an issue!

    Tip; What keeps people coming back to the same boss multiple times isn't the kill, its the loot.., make that a 100% drop chance n' the content is cut by 50% already.
    There's no sense in arguing about moderator's actions. I was honest about the proposal, I outlined several of the glaring issues with it.

  15. #15
    17 heroic kill (10m)

    14 protector
    2 vanquisher
    1 conquerer

    (5 vang, 4 conq, 1 prot in raid)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by UunaPriest View Post
    Try doing the same boss for an entire content patch and only ever seeing the same tier token.
    Still more tokens per person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryve View Post
    It's easier to gear up in 25 mans, 25 mans give lolbonusloot per boss. 25 mans acquire legendaries faster. Please tell me in what way it is "easier" to gear up in 10 mans, unless your 25 man group is heavily class/token stacking beyond reason?
    One token for 10 persons vs two for 25 persons. Bad luck is always part of the equation just as the usually vanquisher and conqueror heavy raid comps at least in 10 mans but still we've been killing blackhorn/h blackhorn in 25 man since patch release and have yet to see another protector token after a single normal one.
    On the lol legendary issue - how many rogues do you have per 10 man group vs how many rogues do you have per 25 man group ? Even my alt rogue trolling around in normal mode ds has the second step next id and I neither farmed every week nor did always a full clear.
    The only thing you get "extra" is that there are three regular items dropping so it winds up to be three for 25 instead of the one for 10 and I don't even want to get into a roster size discussion.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2012-01-29 at 01:34 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    It is already easier to gear up in 10mans...
    Opinion =/= fact.

    Since DS came out, my 10-man group earned enough tokens to gear out our priest, our paladin, and about 5 hunters. We don't have any warriors or shamans. The mage/DK/Rogue/Druid token has dropped only four times, two gloves, a chest and a head. Problem - we have 2 mages, 2 druids, a DK and a rogue....

    Stupid token drops are literally holding our group back.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Still more tokens per person.

    One token for 10 persons vs two for 25 persons. Bad luck is always part of the equation just as the usually vanquisher and conqueror heavy raid comps at least in 10 mans but still we've been killing blackhorn/h blackhorn in 25 man since patch release and have yet to see another protector token after a single normal one.
    On the lol legendary issue - how many rogues do you have per 10 man group vs how many rogues do you have per 25 man group ? Even my alt rogue trolling around in normal mode ds has the second step next id and I neither farmed every week nor did always a full clear.
    The only thing you get "extra" is that there are three regular items dropping so it winds up to be three for 25 instead of the one for 10 and I don't even want to get into a roster size discussion.
    Tier isn't the only gear people need, and after set bonuses (which can also be one in LFR, where 25 mans have the advantage of being able to use a full guild group) all of those extra non-tier items add up.

    How many rogues in a 10 man group? How about "how many casters in a 10 man group"? You know, because an example of a legendary that only one class can use (one of the least played classes in the game) probably isn't the fairest. However, it certainly doesn't negate the fact that 25s were getting the legendary before most 10s had P2 daggers. Or the fact that they'll have 1 or 2 more before most 10 mans start seeing any. As a raid DPS percentage, it doesn't make as big of a difference, but from a raid gear level perspective the advantages to 25 mans are huge.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryve View Post
    Tier isn't the only gear people need, and after set bonuses (which can also be one in LFR, where 25 mans have the advantage of being able to use a full guild group) all of those extra non-tier items add up.

    How many rogues in a 10 man group? How about "how many casters in a 10 man group"? You know, because an example of a legendary that only one class can use (one of the least played classes in the game) probably isn't the fairest. However, it certainly doesn't negate the fact that 25s were getting the legendary before most 10s had P2 daggers. Or the fact that they'll have 1 or 2 more before most 10 mans start seeing any. As a raid DPS percentage, it doesn't make as big of a difference, but from a raid gear level perspective the advantages to 25 mans are huge.
    I don't know why I still bother but...you were having p2 daggers just about the time the first legendaries were complete - give or take half an id. And I used a current example - the same goes for the staff as well since for every caster you have in a 10 man group you likely have three in a 25 man. Most 25 man guilds simply had the advantage of being able to farm them in 10 mans as well because they have and need the big rosters. In the previous tier I would have given you right though on the gearing way faster issue but with the current token situation it simply isn't true anymore.

  20. #20
    Well in my guild we are 5/8 heroic and we have a total of 14 heroic boss kills who can actually drop a tier token (Morchok doesn't drop tier). So far we've only had 1 protector token and it was the hands which is the only bit I don't want. Meanwhile we have a bunch of people already with 3/4 of their heroic tier pieces from other tokens.

    So far the only piece of heroic gear I have is the xbow which you'd think is good with me being a hunter... but it's actually only about 90dps above the normal mode deathwing bow I was using. So in fact the ranged weapon is about the smallest upgrade in the whole raid instance for me.

    /cry
    Last edited by Paulosio; 2012-01-29 at 05:15 PM.

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