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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Neichus View Post
    They release it fast like this, people complain it's incomplete. They wait a long time, people feel like they're just being left in the dark. There have been recent Blizzard responses to people saying they'd like to see the development in process, so maybe that's just the treat we're getting.
    I really wasn't expecting it to be out so soon after blizzcon. I would rather have these little oversights (I call them that due to wishful thinking) be worked out before it goes up for everyone to qq about. But I suppose its better then nothing for now.
    Let's turn the Night into Tomorrow

  2. #22
    Heal is replaced with Spirit Shell in the Grace tooltips.

  3. #23
    Considering Atonement is one of the calling cards of being Disc.

    I would be surprised if they Left it out by accident or on purpose.

    would be more surprised if they completely removed it.

  4. #24
    I'm quite happy about this being a work in progress, but I'm left with more questions than answers right now

    - Will Binding Heal, Heal and Renew really be Holy only spells?
    - Atonement - in or out? Still disc only?
    - Lacking shadow spells like MB and MS - an oversight?
    - And where is Devouring Plague, and Holy Nova?
    - Hymn of Hope, is it cut or not?
    - Rapture - still based on max mana, or tooltip just not updated yet?
    - How do we generate shadow orbs?
    - What happened to Prayer of Healing?
    - Mana Burn gone? Is this happy news?
    - Divine Hymn at 8 minutes and Holy only? Comparing to druid tranquility, it seems so, but Barrier is still at 3 min...
    - No more 1 sec CD PW Shield?
    - How will Archangel tie up to the specs now?
    - Did they deliberately cut Mass Dispel and Abolish Disease, or just another oversight?
    - Or Shackle Undead for that matter?
    - I suppose healing priests still have Meditation?
    - Did they remove all the PVP survival talents in favor of passive resilience?

    These and more answers, coming to an expansion near you - next year :P
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Folks, we're not even in the alpha for MoP yet. These things will change

    They put up the recent official 4.3 preview and now this so that people are talking about WoW during Thanksgiving week/weekend, which will likely lead us into 4.3 the following Tuesday (29th).

    Some of the trees are clearly more polished than others. Warlock trees are very fleshed out compared to most, and some seem very unpolished. And by trees I mean your class/spec spells/bonuses you gain while leveling, not your talents.

    Hrm, I guess you could just call that your spec tree, to delineate from your talent tree. Or maybe just spec and talents :P
    agreed. i don't understand why people are wasting their time complaining when it's obviously not finished.

    Signature by Kenz

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by angelx7x View Post
    agreed. i don't understand why people are wasting their time complaining when it's obviously not finished.
    Past experience. Things can change in a moment's notice.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by angelx7x View Post
    agreed. i don't understand why people are wasting their time complaining when it's obviously not finished.
    Anyone could possibly even remotely assume that I'm complaining?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by phbruintjes View Post
    Devouring Plague is gone too it seems :\
    And the "talent" "trees" seem like they just wanna get rid of the shadow spec alltogether. I see almost no damaging stuff.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Moshic View Post
    And the "talent" "trees" seem like they just wanna get rid of the shadow spec alltogether. I see almost no damaging stuff.
    Most of the damage stuff you get for already being Shadow. They want you to choose your own flavor of CC, your own choice of survival, your pick of movement. That's something that all classes face, no matter what spec or role they're filling.

    At least in these choices, it can't be mathed out on a spreadsheet for "This is the only one you can take or you're bad". I fail to see how having half the tiers up for personal choice or group composition is trying to say "we're getting rid of shadow".
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Moshic View Post
    And the "talent" "trees" seem like they just wanna get rid of the shadow spec alltogether. I see almost no damaging stuff.
    Look at the warlock talents, for example. The talents are mainly just flavor, not just damage increases.
    Let's turn the Night into Tomorrow

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tomehere View Post
    Look at the warlock talents, for example. The talents are mainly just flavor, not just damage increases.
    "But none of the talents talk about increasing fire damage, so clearly they're trying to get rid of Destruction Warlocks".

    Kidding aside, tomehere has it right.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-23 at 02:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner
    - Hymn of Hope, is it cut or not?
    Did some more looking, it's currently sitting in Discipline at level 66.

    Holy has access to Holy Fire. Shadow has no Hymns, when this isn't true for Druids.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  12. #32
    I'm having a huge argument with my guild rogues over the talent trees.

    On one side, they're quite upset about most of the talents being "worthless", since none of them offer a DPS upgrade. "I get to choose between a bunny, puppy and a kitty costume. Who cares?"
    On the other side, they're quite upset about the some talents being tailored towards specs. "This talent is obviously the "assassination talent". I take this, or I am wrong. There is no choice!"

    I think it's quite good that there is no apparent "shadow talent" in the priest trees. That would lower the amount of choice, forcing you to take it, and ultimately be balanced against having it. Cue my guildies argument #2. Instead you get to choose some random utility or survival talent. My guildies then end up in argument #1 - the choice is meaningless. And for some of the rogues talent trees, this is correct. The same argument can be made against some of the priest healing trees.

    No shadowpriest is going to be terribly impressed with Divine Star or Desperate Prayer. That is a fact, and to be honest I would like to see something here changing. For example neither spell breaking shadowform. Similarly, Angelic Bulwark seems a little too tailored towards Disc for my tastes, and Archangel isn't making any Holypriest raise an eyebrow. I also dislike that a few of the talents are very much tailored towards PVP. Wov of Unity and Phantasm springs to mind. They can probably work on that a little too.

    But beyond that, the talents are open to everyone, and mostly equal to everyone. It's a choice between utility, not DPS/HPS boosters. If this ends up as a choice between useless buttons that you aren't going to push anyway - like my guildies - then it's a problem. If it's not really a choice, since only one button is actually useful, then it's a problem too. But I like to think that all the talents are at least good for something, and the ones that I listed can probably be equalized a little.

    In comparison, the Rogue talent tree is in a pretty bad state. But the Priest tree is looking pretty good
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    No shadowpriest is going to be terribly impressed with Divine Star or Desperate Prayer. That is a fact, and to be honest I would like to see something here changing. For example neither spell breaking shadowform. Similarly, Angelic Bulwark seems a little too tailored towards Disc for my tastes, and Archangel isn't making any Holypriest raise an eyebrow. I also dislike that a few of the talents are very much tailored towards PVP. Wov of Unity and Phantasm springs to mind. They can probably work on that a little too.
    Divine Star doesn't seem to be listed as a Holy Spell. It's intended to do Damage. And considering bears can heal themselves in bear form, thanks to the new talents, putting Desperate Prayer as a "choice to keep yourself alive" for Shadow, it won't break Shadowform.

    As for Archangel, you're right: it isn't making Holy raise any eyebrows, well except mine. And mine are more "Why isn't it? What the hell Blizz?"

    Phantasm being a PvP point is fine, because some (few) specs will want Body and Soul in PvP, and we have no idea what Path of the Devout will do if we ever get a new Levitate.

    Angelic Bulwark being Discipline tailored is fine, because of their mastery (as that's the only difference going for them at this point in time). A Holy Priest can still take it if they're using shields as escape/survival mechanisms (especially abusing Body and Soul amidst oncoming melee), and not see as drastic of a severity as we think. Don't forget, mastery is going through the floor next expansion, so we can get back to BC style numbers.

    And Holy can lean on Desperate Prayer a little harder than Discipline, but if you were to make PvP Discipline make the choice on live the choice is easily Desperate Prayer. It just can't be weighed. And then you factor in an uncontrolled but absolutely free in both mana and time Final Prayer, and survivability isn't as clear cut as you might think. Sure it's easy to say "The shield talent is discipline" in theory, but it doesn't always work like that.

    I agree the Priest tree (talents) looks quite good. All we need is to figure out what the frak is going on with Holy and Evangelism.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  14. #34
    The problem is they don't want you to have any meaningful choices. If you want to heal in a different way to someone else, tough, you can't spec for it.
    All you get is bunny, puppy or kitty costume, and once you choose one thats it. most of the time they all do the same thing (cc, move, def cd) so it is only flavour. You could bind <level 15 talent choice> to a key and you would still press it at the same time regardless of what the actual choice was.

    I am used to a pretty high level of polish from blizz whenever they release something like this, and so to have 12+ errors in the priest tree alone (or equally, 12 unannounced spell deletions, many of which would be totally non nonsensical) it is pretty worrying. What have they done with the dev resources...

  15. #35
    It looks like the distinction between 'ALL' and 'Class' in the subfilter is borked. I'm not sure I get what the distinction is there.
    None the less, here's a quick recap of the tentative pre alpha talents in a Holy/Disc breakdown

    @10 Holy gets Holy word, and Disc gets Penance
    @18 Both Holy and Disc get Holy Fire
    @26 Holy gets Renew
    @28 Holy gets Heal
    @30 Holy gets Spirit of Redemption
    @32 Holy gets Holy Concentration and Disc gets Rapture
    @34 Holy and Disc get Greater Heal
    @36 Holy gets Light Well and Disc gets Inner Focus
    @44 Disc gets Evangelism
    @45 Disc gets Grace
    @48 Holy gets Binding Heal
    @50 Holy gets Circle of Healing
    @56 Holy gets Chakra
    @58 Disc gets Pain Suppresion
    @66 Disc gets Hymn of Hope
    @68 Both get Prayer of Mending
    @70 Holy gets Guardian Spirit and Disc gets PW Barrier
    @74 Holy gets Revelations
    @78 Holy gets Divine Hymn and Disc gets Train of Thought
    @80 Both get Mastery

    Holy:
    Spammy spells: Renew, Heal, FHeal, GHeal, Binding Heal, Holy Word, PoM, CoH, PWShield
    Cooldowns: Divine Hymn, Light Well, Guardian Spirit
    Specials: Revelations, Spirit of Redemption
    Mana: Holy Conc, Fiend

    Disc:
    Spammy spells: Gheal, Penance, PWShield, PoM, Grace
    Cooldowns: PW Barrier, Pain Suppression
    Specials: Inner Focus, Evangelism, ToT
    Mana: Rapture, Fiend, Hymn of Hope

    Both:
    SWP, Mysery, Smite, Dispel, Resurrection, Inner Fire, Inner Will, Fortitude, Levitate, Mind Vision, Leap of Faith, Mind Control

    Missing:
    Mind Blast(!!), Prayer of Healing (!!), Divine Aegis(!!)



    Keep in mind that Disc is also getting a spammable bubble with no weakened soul effect, which is likely the spec's replacement for Heal as a higher level spell.
    I wonder if Holy is getting any new spell? With a new expac the spec should get something, but Holy already seems to be in the winning camp with the number of abilities.

    I have all sorts of opinions on the above, but until the beta is near release, it's not worth getting uppity about it.
    Last edited by Themos; 2011-11-23 at 10:49 AM.

  16. #36
    In my opinion talents that force you out of shadow form shouldn't be there. They have taken extra care in the druid talents to be usable in all forms, I don't think shadow priests should be the exception. And if they can't break the rule, because the abiliities they have given are obviously "holy" like, they should either change them for something else or offer a "shadow" alternative at the same time (e,.g. dark star along divine star, ) as they have done already with many of the abilities (archangel, from darkness comes light).

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by kelevandros View Post
    In my opinion talents that force you out of shadow form shouldn't be there. They have taken extra care in the druid talents to be usable in all forms, I don't think shadow priests should be the exception. And if they can't break the rule, because the abiliities they have given are obviously "holy" like, they should either change them for something else or offer a "shadow" alternative at the same time (e,.g. dark star along divine star, ) as they have done already with many of the abilities (archangel, from darkness comes light).
    Well hello stranger. It's certainly been awhile.

    Again though, it doesn't necessarily have to break Shadowform. I see nothing saying Divine Star isn't a "Discipline" spellbook spell. Actually, given its place as a talent, the spell itself can be programmed to not break Shadowform and it doesn't break anything because Shadow doesn't have access to Holy or Discipline's toolkit.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    And Holy can lean on Desperate Prayer a little harder than Discipline, but if you were to make PvP Discipline make the choice on live the choice is easily Desperate Prayer. It just can't be weighed. And then you factor in an uncontrolled but absolutely free in both mana and time Final Prayer, and survivability isn't as clear cut as you might think. Sure it's easy to say "The shield talent is discipline" in theory, but it doesn't always work like that.
    You're right. Let me rephrase that. "The shield talent isn't for holy or shadow". That's the better wording. Whether it is for Disc is up in the air as you say, because Disc priest has a though choice. Holy and especially Shadow doesn't. Shadow will want the passive one as both the others carry some notable downside for the spec, and Holy will have to decide whether they want Desperate Prayer or a passive lifesaver. I can deal with it from a Holy situation, but a Shadowpriest has every right to be displeased by this "choice". Unless they make DP not break shadowform
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by kelevandros View Post
    In my opinion talents that force you out of shadow form shouldn't be there. They have taken extra care in the druid talents to be usable in all forms, I don't think shadow priests should be the exception. And if they can't break the rule, because the abiliities they have given are obviously "holy" like, they should either change them for something else or offer a "shadow" alternative at the same time (e,.g. dark star along divine star, ) as they have done already with many of the abilities (archangel, from darkness comes light).
    The only problem I see with Divine Star being used in Shadowform is that it heals AND damages. Since you can't cast heals in Shadowform, it'd be a bit odd to me. And changing it to do damage only might cause some balancing issues. (It could happen)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Unless they make DP not break shadowform
    Why does everyone seem to think this can't happen?

    They're giving BEARS the ability to heal. This isn't that big of a stretch.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

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