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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    You're right. Let me rephrase that. "The shield talent isn't for holy or shadow". That's the better wording. Whether it is for Disc is up in the air as you say, because Disc priest has a though choice. Holy and especially Shadow doesn't. Shadow will want the passive one as both the others carry some notable downside for the spec, and Holy will have to decide whether they want Desperate Prayer or a passive lifesaver. I can deal with it from a Holy situation, but a Shadowpriest has every right to be displeased by this "choice". Unless they make DP not break shadowform
    Those survival talents from the level 60 tier are mostly a PvP serious consideration, any of one of them is useful in PvE with any of the specs, imo.
    Personal preference will win out. I will say that if I PvP as Holy, I'll definitely have Body and Soul as well as Angelic Bulwark. It'll make PWShield a definite always use when it's up spell. Especially if you consider the PvP 4set. Going through the motions of a typical arena match in my head, I'll get more bang out of that than Desperate Prayer. I'd still have GS, HW Serenity on a much shorter CD, and Renew.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperN View Post
    Forget that, Evangelism/ArchAngel, one of the talents, can only be used by Discipline Priests despite the description giving a different message.
    Evangelism is in the Discipline specialisation. Archangel for Shadow consumes Shadow Orbs, not Evangelism stacks. Holy doesn't use it.

  3. #43
    Field Marshal noxatron's Avatar
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    Priests are a really difficult class.

  4. #44
    Just went back and looked over the other classes talents (because I just glanced over them and right after went straight back to the Priest talents). Every class is getting some kind of healing talent or improving an existing spell that heals. After looking at the Druid talents again, now I wouldn't be surprised if they did change Desperate Prayer and Divine Star (low hopes for this one) to be used in Shadowform.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Folks, we're not even in the alpha for MoP yet. These things will change
    I heard the same about not giving spirit into 4.2 gear. So I am greatly aware, how will Priest healing look like in 5.0

    Disci is almost ripped off AOE healing spells. No PoH, no Divine Hymn, only way to heal more than 1 target is by using talents - Divine Star and\or Vampiric Dominance. Is that, what Blizzard want to do with Discipilne?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by HawynLegend View Post
    Just went back and looked over the other classes talents (because I just glanced over them and right after went straight back to the Priest talents). Every class is getting some kind of healing talent or improving an existing spell that heals. After looking at the Druid talents again, now I wouldn't be surprised if they did change Desperate Prayer and Divine Star (low hopes for this one) to be used in Shadowform.
    Now if only everyone else would go ahead and do that.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodMcChuck View Post
    Heal is the second most inefficient healing spell for Disc, it makes perfect sense that they lose it, they fill that medium, efficient heal gap with Attonement (Which is already better than Heal at ilvl 346+ on live)
    It's a non issue. Who uses Heal or attonement smite for it's healing anymore?
    I didn't even have Heal bound as Holy midway through t11 content. :/

  8. #48
    Frankly, at the beginning of Cata, I tried to use Heal. I can't say, I like that spell, it's for me definition of giving a slap in the face of healers, making no possibility to use any other healing spell than long casting, healing about 5% of life pool Heal. I'm not FH-loving wrath baby, but for me, forcing us to cast THAT spell, or burning our mana pool in first 10 sec of fight is awful

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Now if only everyone else would go ahead and do that.
    But I can somewhat understand why everyone is saying that. Shadow Priests and Druids are the only two classes that I can think of right now that have to change stances just to heal. With the talent trees as they are now, it's obvious that Feral/Boomkins will be able to heal in forms. Until its confirmed that we can or when the beta starts, i'll assume that nothing changed.

    While we're on this, i'll probably try both DP and Final Prayer just to see how much of a difference a heal vs a bubble would be in a dungeon/raid environment.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Raptoos View Post
    Frankly, at the beginning of Cata, I tried to use Heal. I can't say, I like that spell, it's for me definition of giving a slap in the face of healers, making no possibility to use any other healing spell than long casting, healing about 5% of life pool Heal. I'm not FH-loving wrath baby, but for me, forcing us to cast THAT spell, or burning our mana pool in first 10 sec of fight is awful
    Heal actually had a place, despite its low output, all through beta.

    You'd spend three to four Heals getting a person that took a hit back up to health. If you had longer and could afford more mana, you use Renew. If you didn't have that long, that's when you start cross-healing or using Flash/Greater. But Heal was meant to be a "filler", like Greater Heal 2 was "Filler" in TBC. If you aren't doing something else, you're casting Heal. You have the regen to do it almost forever, and only really have your blue bar notice when you start leaving that comfort zone, until you fall back into it again to regen back up.

    That was the idea. That was more than the idea. That was how it worked in TBC. That was how it worked in beta, told as working as intended, and even made it to live for the grand total of a week. But morons are terrible enough at this game that coefficients needed buffs, mana costs needed nerfed, and content had to push to a new dynamic of "cooldown vs. no cooldown" (full health vs. not full health) a dynamic that we've seen similar to in the last expansion and it's failed idea.

    Heal had a place, before Blizzard decided that its "harder, more challenging and rewarding expansion" needed to start appealing to the lowest common denominator again.
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  11. #51
    Heal is, despite Blizzard claims, quite inefficient. It's actually on par with Greater Heal in terms of HPM. That puts it well down in the lower end of the efficiency scale, only really outdone by PW: Shield (as Holy) and Flash Heal.

    The thing that makes Heal perceived as efficient is that if you compare your passive manaregen to the mana per second used by Heal, you are likely going to have a positive income regardless of how hard you spam it. If you do the same with Greater Heal, you are definitively going to be draining yourself for mana. But that doesn't mean it's efficient. It just means it is healing for very little.

    As Themos says, Heal is pretty worthless. It's not healing for enough to be worth casting in raids, and only healing for enough in 5man heroics if you are overgearing the content. The only reason to use it is if you are incredibly oom and need to delay the inevitable by a second or two. And even then it may be better to just let the other healers do the job while you regen mana and then come back using efficient heals when it actually matters. I honestly believe they should make Heal free of charge, and fulfill the promise of it being an "auto attack".

    Atonement has a use on HC Halfus and HC Majordomo though, but that's about it. But hey, it's a fun toy, and I would hate to see it killed off in MoP.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  12. #52
    The Patient Synamon's Avatar
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    Also pretty sure they mentioned that circle of healing was going to be for discipline too.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by RestMyCase View Post
    Also pretty sure they mentioned that circle of healing was going to be for discipline too.
    No they didn't. You just failed at Reading Comprehension. The exact line was
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    For example, all Holy Priests will have Circle of Healing
    People ignored that word and just said "All Priests get it \o/ WOOHOO"
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  14. #54
    Kelesti, I don't know, for me "Filler" healing spell should have faster cast rate, even instant, but with CD (like 5 sec). We all know, that time is the most valuable resource, all healers have. Maybe in 5 man dungeon there are some time to spent it for casting Heal, but on boss fights, when even with good tanking, I have to focus on healing more than just one target, and that target receives big damage input, I can't spent 3 secs (minus haste) on healing 5% of the target's health pool!

    I don't want, and I think, that we all don't want to be forced to use one spell more often than other. When I'm healing tank, that have massive damage input incoming, or need to be topped, I'm using that time to cast on him POM, PWS, Renew, and then, use Gheal and Penance to top him up. I love situations that need from me using different spells to prevent rips.

    Well, looking at the tree, it seems, that in Disco, I won't use on that tank Renew anymore - I can live with that. Losing possibility to cast Heal? I won't even notice that.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-23 at 12:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    No they didn't. You just failed at Reading Comprehension. The exact line was
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    For example, all Holy Priests will have Circle of Healing
    People ignored that word and just said "All Priests get it \o/ WOOHOO"
    I remember that someone told something about Holy Nova for discos - I don't see that spell anywhere :?

  15. #55
    The Patient Synamon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    No they didn't. You just failed at Reading Comprehension. The exact line was
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    For example, all Holy Priests will have Circle of Healing
    People ignored that word and just said "All Priests get it \o/ WOOHOO"
    Haha thanks. Was trying to find the quote too.

    I cannot wait to get my hands on divine star though.Also with regards to Divine Hymn it could become a glyph to reduce the cooldown time and such.
    Last edited by Synamon; 2011-11-23 at 11:58 AM.

  16. #56
    Related, but a little off topic.

    Couldn't find Mind blast in there either; was eagar to know how their new system would work if they've updated the tooltips.
    (Well, they have for some, Inner fire is ~2k SP now)

    Quite odd to see the healing spells split like that though.
    Last edited by Lairyfiquid; 2011-11-23 at 11:59 AM.

  17. #57
    The problem with that, Raptoos, is that they failed Cataclysm's design. Period. They failed to balance Druid's mana regen and Paladins' Holy Radiance ability having zero deminishing returns, so content was too easy until it was tuned for these. So when it was finally tuned, everyone else had to catch up, thus creating the duality issue of people's health bars (alive or dead, no triage, no in between).

    The advertised Cataclysm healing design, all the way back from alpha, was that we'd have people being able to sit at 68%, just waiting to drop lower health because we can't afford to use inefficient heals on them, and once they get to ~62, we can toss a high power heal without worry of overheal and wasting, or we can let splashes help slowly ring him up. That's raiding triage. And the model that Cataclysm was built on. The one that Holy Priests had to bust their ass off to achieve, but could, when everyone else was steam rolling.

    And from the look of it, if they're trying again (given how quickly they gave up last time?) it appears that Spirit Shell is the replacement to Discipline's Heal, which would mean that it is still a high HPM, low HPS spammable spell.

    @ Danner:
    Greater Heal 4 was the most efficient one we had in TBC. Didn't stop us from using Greater Heal 2 just to keep our mana bar more stable. Don't forget, Flashx2+Greater is more efficient than Greaterx2, even if you're burning the mana off faster.


    Back as a final note: I agree with an earlier sentiment with Spiritus, where if the spell(s) had a 2 second base time, but kept the same health output, it wouldn't really be that big of a deal. Unlike Spiritus, I think Flash Heal should have a high haste scaling, starting at 1.3 second base time. Same mana cost as Greater Heal, same health as Heal.

    So you spam Heal until you need to spend more mana. Do you need health NOW, or do you need LOTS OF HEALTH IN THE QUITE VERY NEAR FORSEEABLE FUTURE. Both would punish your bar, but Heal would feel more intuitive instead of "It's sooooo loooooong".

    I dunno, given how long I spent stopcasting GH1, 2, 4, and 7, I can't really say I've ever felt Heal was slow.
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  18. #58
    Dreadlord myhv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Heal is, despite Blizzard claims, quite inefficient. It's actually on par with Greater Heal in terms of HPM. That puts it well down in the lower end of the efficiency scale, only really outdone by PW: Shield (as Holy) and Flash Heal.

    The thing that makes Heal perceived as efficient is that if you compare your passive manaregen to the mana per second used by Heal, you are likely going to have a positive income regardless of how hard you spam it. If you do the same with Greater Heal, you are definitively going to be draining yourself for mana. But that doesn't mean it's efficient. It just means it is healing for very little.

    As Themos says, Heal is pretty worthless. It's not healing for enough to be worth casting in raids, and only healing for enough in 5man heroics if you are overgearing the content. The only reason to use it is if you are incredibly oom and need to delay the inevitable by a second or two. And even then it may be better to just let the other healers do the job while you regen mana and then come back using efficient heals when it actually matters. I honestly believe they should make Heal free of charge, and fulfill the promise of it being an "auto attack".

    Atonement has a use on HC Halfus and HC Majordomo though, but that's about it. But hey, it's a fun toy, and I would hate to see it killed off in MoP.
    People seem to forget that Heal has other uses other than... healing. I'm been using it ever since the start of expansion and I'm still having some use for it on HC Rag. Yeah the healing is crap, but don't forget that it still procs ToT, stacks and keeps up grace and procs t12 2p. And it costs so little mana that I don't notice any difference between casting it or just standing still. It might be a complete failure as an actual heal, but unbinding it and forgetting about it would be very irresponsible thing to do.
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  19. #59
    I think you mean Strength of Soul, myhv, not Train of Thought. But yes, it also triggers trinkets and Power Torrent so you can keep your regen flowing instead of having things wait off the ICD for you.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    And from the look of it, if they're trying again (given how quickly they gave up last time?) it appears that Spirit Shell is the replacement to Discipline's Heal, which would mean that it is still a high HPM, low HPS spammable spell.
    This definitively has some merit. And it could explain why Heal isn't listed as a Disc spell.

    There are times when I miss my GHeal rank 4 too. Mostly because it healed a third of a HP bar while preventing me from running OOM ever, while the tanks took half their HP bar in damage per hit. Now my Heal cover a tenth of a HP bar, while the tanks still take half their HP bar in damage per hit. As you point out, the healing model truly failed on that one. Had the tanks been taking a whole lot less damage, this would have been working. But when Blizzard tried that, all it really ended up with was running with two healers in a 25man raid.

    Holy priesting back in TBC was actually quite a lot more involved. You still had to deal with mana troubles, but you had so many options to deal with them. From the Blue dragon proc abuses, to FSR dancing and clearcasting abuse, to downranking heals. Mana was a PITA to manage, but with a medium of skill you could overcome it and grow incredibly powerful. Nowadays, it's a "cast spells, or don't cast spells and hope your raiders dont' die while you conserve mana" deal. If you are out of mana and cooldowns, you don't really have any power over the situation anymore.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

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