Weird Choices in Tier 1 of New Talent System?

[Splosion]

we already settled down on the matter of pve, but can you say it is ok for ret in pvp?

Yes, an on-demand sprint is never useless. Especially if you're playing defensively

guess why everyone plays Subtlety - they dont rely on some long cd sprint, they have Shadowstep. Of course its not the only reason, but the major one.
What you want to see is not what I say. I want SoL be of use for all 3 specs in regard both to pve and pvp.

What Utility do Wings bring? Its flat +damage for prot, nothing else.
Good tanks do not compare AW to DP.

Damage at the right time, aswell as an increase to raid healing (granted that will be dead come 4.3, but whatever). What would you have had me compare it to? It's still a powerful tool for protection, when used for more than just 3.3% more damage averaged over the fight.

Tell that balance druid to zip it up for 4 seconds so tank can have his way with aggro. Ever heard of "rule of 3 sunders" ?

The rule of 3 sunders is two expansions old. Hasn't applied since Naxx 2.0. I rarely ask for a gcd for AE aggro these days to establish. It's also effective after 3 sunders if the balance can do more than 5x the damage in the same time. Waiting doesn't change that.

No, you cant. I can see it being extremely useful in PVE, yes, I can see it useful for Holy in both PVE and PVP, I can see its uses for Prot FCes on BG, but this move as it stands now, does not suit or help ret. Too long of a cd, too weak of utility. You can deny it all you want, but the fact remains.

Granted it's on quite a long cd, but it's on-demand, and you can't easily weigh the strength of that on a single scale, especially in PvP.

No. You know what I meant when I said "double-edged sword" ? Yes you can burn it mindlessly for the purpose of casting on the move in a certin moment, but now you are left with no means to escape should the dangerous situation arise.

Shorter cd = more dangerous situations you can escape. That added to the large survivability of a holy paladin is overpowered.

as for ret... so you are ok with allowing totally not a ranged class posessing Hammer of Wrath, Judgement, and Exorcism but hellbent on denying a "possible" idea of using 1 or 2 Verdicts in a very specific situation?

None of them are the most powerful ability we posses. It'd be the equivalent of Mortal Strike from range. And Exorcism is hardly going to be a ranged attack when this is implemented, if it stays to proc on auto-attacks? Or does your idea allow you to auto-attack from range aswell? Hammer of wrath is an execute, you don't get to use it often in pvp, so it's fine. as for judgement, it's not a huge amount of damage (compared to giving rets TV from range), and it can potentially have a snare attached (always depending how SoJ will work, else talented).

[Splosion]

so under some specific condition if you decided to go turtle off from the bat, this ability gains some usefullness for ret? This is a prime example of fail logic AND fail design at the same time.

I never said that you had to go defensive off the bat. Especially does not mean "only". On-demand always has extreme usefulness.

damage at the right time? Tank damage is IRRELEVANT most of the time xept gimmick moments like aoe/alysrazor adds. so you say it is ok for the talent to be a gimmick for a gimmick situation?
You do not want to compare a DPS cd to defensive cd. Compare AW to Vendetta, or Enrage, or Death Wish. DP should be compared to Barkskin/IBF.

and well, increased unnoticed healing go unnoticed.

Really, to you it's either "gimmick" or "useless". Stop being so damn dense. Small does not mean useless.

You dont. Others do. and oh, for those who love to go all out from the beginning there are 2 wonderful tools - HoP and glyphed HoSalv.

So, 3 people do similar damage. What do you do then? I was never talking about prot being competetive damage in aoe anyway. it's about aoe tanking, they are just good at it, when compared to Blood or Feral.

But I can weigh its strength on a single scale, than I will weigh its scale on an other scale, and we will be able to judge its usefullness from different angles.

You're going to judge the usefulness of something that is on-demand from different angles? What exactly are they, and where can I find them?

I was not demanding SoL get a shorter cd, infact I am against it in fear of buffing holy too much, as I already stated a page before.
Is is just one of solutions. Not the best one, clearly.

Ever had pets/mirror images/elementals in your melee? You WANT to hit them with CS at the very least so you are not depleted of resources any time you are kited. speaking of HoW - Sanctified Wrath. Need I say more?
and for fluffy kitten's sake, I am not demanding my idea be the only one or the right one or the best one. Stop criticising something that was shown to you as an example of the way of creating ideas.

Who says they're in range of you? Meleeing something out of your melee range is rather hard to do. Sanctified wrath is different, you have to use something to use it, and I doubt you'd use wings when you're being kited. Especially not by a certain magic stealing class.

think out of the box.

There is something you could do that just matches this skill to others that are similar - removing snares/stuns. Ret had similar back in wotlk, didn't make them overpowered really. For holy, the damage reduction is fine, but perhaps cast interrupt protection akin to inner focus (or whatever the disc talent is). And for protection, perhaps a small improvement on the active mitigation abilities. However, only my retribution suggestion has anything to do with mobility. So perhaps they aren't a good idea anyway.

Happy?

[Nillo]

Just... why do people make posts just to attack everyone who is trying to add to the discussion....

On topic:
I really can't see what's wrong with that talent as long as a respec can be done without going back to town each time because it does appear to be situational.
I'd say it's going to be useful for fights where you only need burst movement once every minute, like ragnaros p2 and at fights like this the bonus healing for ret or reduced damage taken for holy certainly doesn't hurt either.

[Splosion]

yes you did.

everything that is usale and not passive - is an on demand. moving on.

Whilst this is true, the value of this talent is that it isn't tied specifically to an ability, which makes it more useful than ones that are (Holy power, Judgement)

but it is. small DOES mean useless.
take Seal of Insight for example. it heals for small amounts, but does it help you? your healer? your raid? no, no and no.

Ok, I'll concede this point. However, it is quite a bit of burst if you need it. Being able to burst 5k hps on the raid isn't completely useless, but I guess it doesn't amount to a great deal.

I HoP one, HoSalv second, and third gets -50 dkp for doing not what he was supposed to .
I was never talking about tank aoe aswell, so whats the fuzz?
Ok now we say prot paladins are good at aoe tanking, page before you mocked me for saying that protpaladins arent famous for tremendous aoe dps.

protpaladins arent famous for tremendous aoe capabilities.

You never said dps. Capabilities can mean many things.


[/QUOTE]
1st angle is Pve- for prot, for holy, for ret
2nd is PvP, for prot, for holy, for ret
actually its 6 angles!
[/QUOTE]

Once again, on-demand abilities usually amount to the same usefulness, so you can basically put that to two angles - PvP and PvE.

pets quite often ARE in range of you, especially in pvp ebvironment, especially in arenas. You might check it out before arguing .
Sanctified Wrath is of little difference, it provides you with Execute , as you say "on demand" As with mages, you know that they are not the only ones who kite right?

Not always, It's only usually the case with hunters. Warlocks often try and keep a healer dispelled/locked, and mage pets do not melee. If you're being focused, you're not always being kited.

Yes I am! You did it, and its quite decent ideas, tbh, I totally forgot about HoF stun remover! This - is the way to go. Like, seriously, goodjob on the ret one

Thank you. I'll admit the holy one already exists, in the form of Aura mastery, but I remember loving the freedom-trinket because it gave us exactly what we needed - Mobility. Another option for holy could be the next spell being instant, similar to Nature's swiftness (not sure how it would interact with Infusion of Light though).

[Raugnaut]

When i am looking through this thread, the stupidy, or willingness to complain of some people astound me. Do all people who frequent this forum act like that?

Now, Tier 1 of paladins. Choice one: 60% speed for 6 seconds every 60 seconds, or 60% speed with a 10% uptime. Now, if we are looking at UTILITY of just the movement, most fight, when you REALLY need to move, and fast, it generally happens once a minute or so. Ignoring the other part of the talent, lets look at the other 2.

Long arm of the Law, Judgement gives 45% movement speed for 2 secs. Judgement has a 8 sec CD. So, 25% uptime of 45% speed. This is useful when you are CHASING something that is moving fast, such as Sons. However, it is not a good gap closer because of its short duration. With that being said, this talent, combined with, say, Burden of Guilt, and/or Sanctified Wrath for Prot makes it fairly good in PVP. I do, however, feel that there should be a little addition to this talent, such as When Long Arm of the Law is gained, you cant be reduced below 100% of your movement speed for as long as your buff lasts, or for it to simply remove slows.

Now, the third one. 10% movement speed per charge of Holy Power. Assuming that we still have a 3 HP system, this doesnt appear to be good. However, we now have 3-4 moves that GENERATE Holy Power, so we should be at 2-3 HP consitently. So, for a majority of the fight, we will be moving at 10-20% speed, occaisonally having 30% or 0% movement buff. This is more a PvE talent. I still feel that there should be something added, such as when you use a move that costs Holy Power, your movement speed is increased to 40% until you generate your next charge of Holy Power.

So, what d we have basically? 60% speed with a 10% uptime, 45% speed with a 25% uptime, and an average of 17% speed with an average 100% uptime. IF it was just this, you could find a niche for each talent ANYWHERE. 60% speed for 6 seconds will enable you a sorta mini sprint. 45% speed will enable you more uptime on a moving target. 17% speed will enable you to go across the battle. I think that the first option will be chosen by EVERYONE depending on the situation, the second will be prefered by Ret for most content, with a few exceptions, and the third, prefered by Holy/Prot, as they have the option to sit on HP until they need it.

Now, lets look at the first talents EXTRA options. It gives a small boost to each spec that doesnt affect how they do in the purest sense of what thier spec is used for. HOWEVER, it totally messes up the design of a movement speed talent. Holy will sit on the CD until they need it to reduce inc damage, not for the movement speed. Ret will sit on it until AoE burst periods, same as Holy. Not for the movement speed. Prot will use it whenever they can, as 10% extra damage should be used as often as possible to get w/e down faster.

I feel that, here, they REALLY messed up the meaning of the talents. either, a) they remove the extras to this talent, and buff the movement speed itself to, say, 80%, or b) they add a little something similar to the other talents. Long Arm- Holy, when you judge, the next damage you take is reduced by 20%, no matter what damage source it is, be it a DoT, AoE, or direct. Prot, when you judge, your next ability has its damage increased by 10%. Ret, when you judge, you heal everyone in a x meter range of yourself for an amount equal to damage dealt by judgement.

As for Holy Power, Holy paladins take 4% less damage per charge of holy power, Protection paladins deal 3.3% (repeating) damage per charge, and Ret generates a small amount of healing each time they gain a charge of Holy Power.
A or B are the only possible ways to realistcally balance these talents. Either remove the extra benefits to the first, and buff the speed boost, or add a benefit to the second and third that, over time, is roughly equivalent to the first and second.

[Deleted]

-snip-

I dont think your ideas are realistic if im honest. Removing the extras might be best option as the talents are for the movement speed, not the extras.

[Requital]

Now, the third one. 10% movement speed per charge of Holy Power. Assuming that we still have a 3 HP system, this doesnt appear to be good. However, we now have 3-4 moves that GENERATE Holy Power, so we should be at 2-3 HP consitently. So, for a majority of the fight, we will be moving at 10-20% speed, occaisonally having 30% or 0% movement buff. This is more a PvE talent. I still feel that there should be something added, such as when you use a move that costs Holy Power, your movement speed is increased to 40% until you generate your next charge of Holy Power.

I think you highly under estimate what 30% movement can do when you have someone snared @ 50% we got a snare based on judgement and not a seal swap we don't need a charge style mechanic because we can still cleanse snares off ourselves.

[ComputerNerd]

If the buffs were too good, then it would be a no-brainer decision to take the talent over anything else in the tier and therefore pointless as a talent if there arent any other viable choices.
Though that does bring up the question as to why design such a talent if it has to be nerfed in such a way to prevent it being too good, when if anything that sort of design lends itself better to a baseline ability.

[Deleted]

no..
because each of 3 choices is different, providing its own ups and downs. SoL's upside is strong, pretty lengthy sprint and a side effect takced onto it, while the downside is a long cd. Right now, the upside is only half-right, as side effect is of no use for prot and ret.

If the upside was fully right, it would be a easy pick. The point of this is to make it able to pick any of the options

[Kelesti]

no.
If the upside was fully right, you would have 3 different talents to choose from. As long as you provide 3 different, interesting and gameplay-infulencing choices, it is the right design.

The upside is fully right. A more powerful sprint with a much shorter relative uptime (but in PvE, you don't have to move very often, and PvP, a longer/stronger sprint can make a difference over a higher average move speed).

The side effect of Holy Radiance gives it a self-heal component while you do it (getting beat on by those pesky frost mages), and also gives it purpose to use on not so heavy movement encounters.

[Kelesti]

But Holy can't sit on Holy Power as much as Prot can (using it the instant you get 3 HP in PvP isn't always the best idea when everything you have is built around survival), and Ret can make use of +30% to run fast enough to catch up to 50% permasnared people, until they're ready to unload on them.

So from a standpoint of Arena PvP, Pursuit of Justice just isn't good enough for Holy as it is the other two. So clearly it must be buffed! Clearly!

More damage from Protection helps in PvP when the sprint isn't as useful, helps you put out some added pressure, or help hold off on an offensive pushing you too hard. A freebie AoE heal can help Ret on chokepoint fights, sprinting past everything to get to the enemy healer while splashing on everyone else holding the front lines, it's more about personal flavor than people are willing to consider.

[Splosion]

But holy Can sit on holy power! How did you come to the conclusion it cant?

It isn't the same. Both ret and prot have to be in melee range to make the best use of their holy power (damage), whilst for holy it's an instant heal. Holy just shouldn't sit as long, since WoG is very powerful.
[QUOTE
Speaking of personal choices... I would love to hear it actually..

-"why didnt you catch up to the enemy healer and bust his ass?"
-*But I have personal flavour! I did spec into long-ass cd sprint and used it like a dairy cow I am to pitifully aoe heal our fronline fighters!*
[/QUOTE]

These people aren't the good PvPers, so that point isn't very valid.

[Splosion]

the aim of this tier is movement enhancing. PoJ prvodies steady passive almost constant increase. It may be lacking, time will tell, but it will have its uses. SoL, on the other hand, will NOT have its uses for pvp prot and ret.

Why not? Nobody said all three talents have to have exactly the same value of usefulness in every situation. If they did there's barely any point in there being talents at all.

[Holypallylol]

Subject to change as well...it's not in alpha stages yet...lol

[NouyDouy]

Its what theyre doing to druids in MoP, increasing other specializations utility