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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Linaver View Post
    Soldiers fighting soldiers is not the same as civillians getting vaporised in a mushroom cloud with no warning or true purpose.
    Both were large cities with some military importance. Neither was irreplacable to the military. There were picked because the casualties would be devastating so they would stand a chance of scaring Japan into surrender.

    USA are assholes for dropping the bomb. They had their reasoning and rationalle that allowed them to carry through with it. It was a gray decision where thousands of families were killed. Nobody in the states thought about that, the whole population cheered it as another military victory. Oh well, history is written by the victors.
    conservative estimates are that if America had proceeded with the invasion instead using the bombs, then we would have lost at least 750 THOUSAND with over 4 million wounded.
    Japanese causalities were estimated to be at least 10 million with countless more wounded.
    and thats without the Soviets getting involved...

    In any case, the fighting would have lasted till 47-48, the Baby boomer generation would have never happened, both of the most powerful economies of the second half of the 20th century would have been ruined, with Japan on the worst end and forever being known as "the nation without fucking cities". Not to mention the USSR was about to go ape on northern Japan, so if they had gotten involved we would have had to split the island with the communists.
    I am sure if you ask any eastern European over 30 what its like to be occupied by russia they will give you a very informative answer...

    An interesting fact: Since the casualty estimates were expected to be so high, the invasion planners ordered 500 thousand purple hearts to be made in preparation. But because it never happened those purple hearts have instead, been awarded to wounded from from every war America has been in since, and theres still about 100k left over.
    Thats right, the USA hasn`t made new purple hearts since 1945.
    Last edited by Defengar; 2011-11-28 at 03:10 AM.

  2. #182
    However, Japan 'started' (which is a wrong word) the Pacific War as an answer to the West colonizing other places. Out of fear of being overtaken by the West, and out of anger for the unequal treaties, Japan decided upon this course and went through a series of rapid, what we'd call modernization: economically, socially as well as military.

    I've actually made a study out of this topic, so I've been reading this topic with great interest. You must be aware that the hows and whys of this topic are still being debated by renowned scholars, so by no means is anything set in stone just because wikipedia says so or because your (especially US, who for obvious reasons may be biased in its teaching of history on this specific matter) historical books said whatever.

    An interesting post I found is someone who said how the Japanese had been brainwashed into thinking every non-Japanese was non human. Interestingly enough, the topic of whether or not Japanese propaganda at that time was in any form or way effective is still a topic of heavy debate, but even more interesting is that nobody in this topic seems to make a reference to the American wartime propaganda, which in my humble opinion was more specific and, for lack of a better word, more effective than the Japanese managed at that time. The Japanese mobilized their people in an entirely different way than the Americans did, and this is actually quite interesting to compare.

    Back on topic however, why or how the bombs were dropped remains a question. Everyone has a different opinion or clarification about it. The retaliation that Japan started the war is far from correct, but saying the US 'started it', is also incorrect. More correct, in my opinion, would be that like most historical events, the Japan-US war resulted as a result of many, many events, including the threat Japan felt from the West at that time. Whether or not the US was aware of Pearl Harbor remains a mystery. Some sources claim the US was aware weeks in advance, other sources say that the US was unable to decipher the letter delivered to them by Japan (which undoubtfully was in Japanese). Nonetheless, it does not change a whole lot to the topic at hand, as reasons of why and how the US-Japan war was started could easily fill several books on its own.

    In popular historic study and teachings (such as schoolbook history), a heavy emphasis is laid on atomic bombings. However, other bombings, such as correctly noted by some people in this thread like the fire bombings of Tokyo are overlooked. Some people here mention that Japan was already looking for ways to end this war. In the scholarly research I did I could find no conclusive evidence of that, but what to me remains sure is that after the first bombing, Japan was granted way too little time to reconsider, and there are indications that already at that point, Japan was ready to surrender. The second bomb, therefore, to me, could be nothing else than just a test to clarify its effects as observed by the first bomb, which in the name of science or whatever justification at that time would have been deemed necessary.

    I hope to have shed some light on the matter. As a student of Japanese modern history, please bear in mind that the way in which we remember and clarify history is never fact, but always subject to different opinions and approaches. The only thing that is sure in history, is the outcome.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2011-11-28 at 03:14 AM. Reason: Grammar etc. It is 4 AM, apologies for chaos.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirgon View Post
    Casualties on both sides would've been astronomically high if America had to invade Japan by ground.

    American casualties would've far exceeded combined allied losses in Europe. That was a major decisive factor in dropping nuclear weapons on Japan.
    So you are saying America would have lost 18mill+ soldiers if they invaded by land? Yeah right...

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    So you are saying America would have lost 18mill+ soldiers if they invaded by land? Yeah right...
    According to churchill, the most influential/loved man in the world at that time, we wouldve lost over a million men taking a rock..

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    So you are saying America would have lost 18mill+ soldiers if they invaded by land? Yeah right...
    American army loses were projected to triple with the invasion of japan by ground.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Defengar View Post
    American army loses were projected to triple with the invasion of japan by ground.
    USA lost about 450K soldiers in WW2 multiply that by 3 how many you get? 18mill? Not even close. Japan lost that many civilians in a 2 years of US bombings... I really dont understand how can some1 be in favor of using nuclear weapons, dont really understand it. Despite what radiation can do ( after 1986 Chernobyl accident and now Japan nuclear disaster people are still pro using nuclear weapon )....
    Last edited by markos82; 2011-11-28 at 03:20 AM.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    Spain invaded Peru, and other countries centuries before, US did the same 100+ years before Japan when thier soldiers killed thousands of Indians, why compare those things?

    Battle for Midway was 3+ years before nuking Japan ( if i remember right ) and form 1944-1945 Japan lost about 1mill civilians in bomb raids.
    I mention those things because long before WW2 in Europe was even thought of, the US and Japan were already in conflict and that is what led to the whole war in the Pacific lol. Japan was already invading our territories before ww2 ever started. That is why they attacked Pearl Harbor, so we couldn't intercede.

    I also said Midway was the turning point for the Pacific war.

    The reason I say all this, is because it seems some people think we just went over and horribly murdered the easy going innocent Japanese. We had them blockaded and militarily finished in 1945, yet they still had kamikaze pilots hitting our ships and bases and refused to surrender, even after the blockades and fire bombings.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    USA lost about 450K soldiers in WW2 multiply that by 3 how many you get? 18mill? Not even close.
    ?

    I never said that we would lose 18 million...

    however, US and Japanese loses combined might have reached 18 million (they were expected to lose at least 10 million)

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Gsara View Post
    No one is ignoring them

    Japan refused to surrender under any terms until after the second bomb was dropped.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Declaration

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokusatsu
    Um, no. Not even close. Again: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html
    The japanese made MANY MANY attemts to negotiate a peaceful surrender. As many as 8 months before the bombs were dropped they offered a surrender deal NEARLY IDENTICAL to the one eventually signed officially in Septemeber after the Bombs.

    The Allies simply refused to accept ANY surrender unless it was 100% unconditional. Which essentially prolonged the war by 8+ months and needlessly resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    USA lost about 450K soldiers in WW2 multiply that by 3 how many you get? 18mill? Not even close.
    "Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. To the present date, all the American military casualties of the 60 years following the end of World War II, including the Korean and Vietnam Wars, have not exceeded that number. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock."

    Maybe that will give you an idea...

  11. #191
    Flat area = more destruction from the shock wave

  12. #192
    USA built a Godzilla thats why japan surrendered

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Gsara View Post
    I mention those things because long before WW2 in Europe was even thought of, the US and Japan were already in conflict and that is what led to the whole war in the Pacific lol. Japan was already invading our territories before ww2 ever started. That is why they attacked Pearl Harbor, so we couldn't intercede.

    I also said Midway was the turning point for the Pacific war.

    The reason I say all this, is because it seems some people think we just went over and horribly murdered the easy going innocent Japanese. We had them blockaded and militarily finished in 1945, yet they still had kamikaze pilots hitting our ships and bases and refused to surrender, even after the blockades and fire bombings.
    USA imposed embargo on Japanese trade and that lead to conflict, nothing more. If US didn't Japan would have probably had most of China. Also USA government knew about the attack and they did nothing since that was the only way to enter war in Europe ( congress and citizens have been against it before attack ).

    But way mention Japans invasion of China? Many countries did that in history and no one cared...

  14. #194
    I've not been able to find any documentation to support it but when I was in Kyoto a few years ago, a guide there told us that Kyoto was the original target rather than Hiroshima but General Marshall had visited the city with his wife year prior and didnt want to bomb it due to the sentimental significance it held for his wife. The guide said they honeymooned there but from what I can gather they actually had a honeymoon in washington so it may have just been a holiday or something, if true at all.

  15. #195
    Why cant japan stop hunting whales and dolphins!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaks View Post
    "Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. To the present date, all the American military casualties of the 60 years following the end of World War II, including the Korean and Vietnam Wars, have not exceeded that number. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock."

    Maybe that will give you an idea...
    My country lost 1.5mill soldiers... Whats the point of that? Sources say that America lost 450K soldiers, so i dont understand how can you get to the number of 18mill, please explain....

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    My country lost 1.5mill soldiers... Whats the point of that? Sources say that America lost 450K soldiers, so i dont understand how can you get to the number of 18mill, please explain....
    Stop killing whales and dolphins, perhaps then your countrymen can understand the truth.

  18. #198
    High Overlord
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    I think it should have been 3 targets each one a few days apart. One in the mountains 100 miles out from Hiroshima. The next 20 miles out from a different city.
    Then if no surrender drop the 3rd on -- Nagasaki. That way there would still be surprise but we would make clear that the third bomb would hit a city if they did not surrender.

    It should have been done this way. Giving them a real clear chance to surrender.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    My country lost 1.5mill soldiers... Whats the point of that? Sources say that America lost 450K soldiers, so i dont understand how can you get to the number of 18mill, please explain....
    I didnt say 18 million? so i dont understand how you can get to the fact that i said 18mill, please explain.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    If all of humanity could let go of their hate and work to better the world, instead of trying to force their way of life on their surroundings, we could get much further in our given lifetimes.
    Actually, if man didn't force their way of life on their surroundings, we'd still be living in caves, and lions would still be the #1 cause of death for humans.

    We live on this planet still because we've learned how to club it into submission. It can easily go too far (probably has) but it's a necessity.
    I don't argue to be right, I argue to be proven wrong. Because I'm aware that the collective intelligence of the community likely has more to offer to me by enlightening me, than I do to an individual by "winning" an argument with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    I don't always wear tennis shoes, but when I do, I speak Russian. In French.

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