Page 13 of 20 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
14
15
... LastLast
  1. #241
    Because they were industrial cities and bombing them would cripple the japanese.

  2. #242
    Also...

    We had an operation plan that had estimated casualties on ALL SIDES upwards of 3 million. The bombs had about 300k casualties...as sick as it sounds...we saved lives dropping the bombs. The operation planned involved an amphibious assault where the allied powers would send in ground troops...a shit ton of them...allied and japanese lives would be lost in the millions. I'd say the bombs were a good idea...
    Last edited by The Ogdru Jahad; 2011-11-28 at 11:56 AM.

  3. #243
    The mere fact that they used the bomb in Hiroshima, and then they repeated the act to Nagasaki, makes all people involved in the decision of those actions war criminals, they should be arrested and executed in public together with the nazis that also had the same fate and quite rightfully.

    It is not a bash against US.

    There were also huge bombings during the WWII that flatened entire cities as well from both sides.

    This though, was a fatal blow against civilians, with the knowledge that even the few survivors and their unborn children will suffer for the remaining of their lives.

    The bastards that decided this should get executed, but as many other bastards they were considered war heroes.

    May their disgraced remains rott in hell.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob from Accounting View Post
    Did you also add up the victims of radiation and cancer for decades after the explosions ?
    Millions have not died because of the radiation, and millions never will from cancers etc. Operation Downfall had estimates of 3 MILLION casualties? Can you wrap your mind around that number? Neither can I. I'd say tops 750k people died/were affected by the bombs. A large number, but a necessary sacrifice that saved millions.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 06:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    The mere fact that they used the bomb in Hiroshima, and then they repeated the act to Nagasaki, makes all people involved in the decision of those actions war criminals, they should be arrested and executed in public together with the nazis that also had the same fate and quite rightfully.

    It is not a bash against US.

    There were also huge bombings during the WWII that flatened entire cities as well from both sides.

    This though, was a fatal blow against civilians, with the knowledge that even the few survivors and their unborn children will suffer for the remaining of their lives.

    The bastards that decided this should get executed, but as many other bastards they were considered war heroes.

    May their disgraced remains rott in hell.
    I recommend you read up on "the rape of nanking" and the "bataan death march". While I love the Japanese today. Back then they were a horrific bloodthirsty people. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK AGAINST THE JAPANESE. Just merely stating the fact that they committed some of the worst atrocities I've ever read about.
    Last edited by The Ogdru Jahad; 2011-11-28 at 11:55 AM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Linaver View Post
    Soldiers fighting soldiers is not the same as civillians getting vaporised in a mushroom cloud with no warning or true purpose.
    Both were large cities with some military importance. Neither was irreplacable to the military. There were picked because the casualties would be devastating so they would stand a chance of scaring Japan into surrender.

    USA are assholes for dropping the bomb. They had their reasoning and rationalle that allowed them to carry through with it. It was a gray decision where thousands of families were killed. Nobody in the states thought about that, the whole population cheered it as another military victory. Oh well, history is written by the victors.
    Do you skip through tulips and sing to birds with double rainbows in the background on your way to work too? We live in a gray world, get over it. More civilians died through out the war through conventional means than died from those bombs. How many times did the enemy intentionally flatten cities with tanks/bombers through out the war? Many. Estimates are approximately 40-52 million civilians died for reasons related to the war. To give you perspective, not even that many soldiers died. Flattening a couple cities to end the madness, worth it in my mind.
    Last edited by achaeon; 2011-11-28 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Maharishi View Post
    I certainly think they should have hit hard military targets rather than cities at first. While no one claiming that war crimes were committed, the intentional targeting of civilian targets is not something i can endorse.
    There also had to pressure on the people of japan and it had to hit home since they had instilled such a fatalistic attitude among the troops that had been seen in the pacific. I am not saying it was right from a objective 3rd party point of view, but it was the right decision for the us to make for itself at that point.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    This though, was a fatal blow against civilians, with the knowledge that even the few survivors and their unborn children will suffer for the remaining of their lives.
    Although I agree it was a horrible act on itself, you should realize that the Japanese at that time would not surrender, at no compromise or circumstance.
    Every single citizen was willing to die for the cause if USA was going to invade Japan.
    Every Japanese citizen would have taken a gun to shoot back, citizen is keyword here.
    Quote Originally Posted by nnelson54 View Post
    I don't celebrate National Native Americans Welcomed Us With Open Arms and Helped Us Survive the First Winter That We Were Woefully Unprepared For and We Repaid Them By Taking Their Lands, Raping Their Women and Murdering Them Day....
    Several Indian tribes see this holiday as the beginning of a process by which they tragically lost their land, and their population was decimated. Every year Indians come together in Plymouth to commemorate their "national day of mourning."

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by jayremy View Post
    the Bomb was like a test run we HAD NO CLUE what effects the nuke would bring on a civilian population, yes we knew about its properties but had no clue on the measurement of damage it would do and how bad.

    The worst part about the bombings was the radiation and fallout to follow, not the actual explosions themselves which were enough to scare a surrender. The larger portion died from the after effects the following months to years later, WE DID NOT EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN. The bomb was way more powerful on human population centers than we imagined which is why we were so quick to make the decision of avoid any future use of them unless, as last resort mechanic, (or counter measure after USSR's acquisition of them).
    We had already measured the amount of radiation and had pretty accurate calculations on how long it would hang around and the effects of it.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Sersel View Post
    Although I agree it was a horrible act on itself, you should realize that the Japanese at that time would not surrender, at no compromise or circumstance.
    Every single citizen was willing to die for the cause if USA was going to invade Japan.
    Every Japanese citizen would have taken a gun to shoot back, citizen is keyword here.
    They were even training women and children how to make and use slingshots and bamboo spears during the final months of the war.
    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -Paul Krugman

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Defengar View Post
    They were even training women and children how to make and use slingshots and bamboo spears during the final months of the war.
    Knowing this, try to turn it all around...what if USA didnt drop those bombs and invaded Japan.
    I could think of a very likely scenario where the Japanse people ceased to excist, but before that we would have gone through a Vietnam-like war.

    Yea, it was horrible, but in the greater picture, personally i think the Abombs were the best solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by nnelson54 View Post
    I don't celebrate National Native Americans Welcomed Us With Open Arms and Helped Us Survive the First Winter That We Were Woefully Unprepared For and We Repaid Them By Taking Their Lands, Raping Their Women and Murdering Them Day....
    Several Indian tribes see this holiday as the beginning of a process by which they tragically lost their land, and their population was decimated. Every year Indians come together in Plymouth to commemorate their "national day of mourning."

  11. #251
    The Lightbringer KingHorse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Somewhere in KY, USA
    Posts
    3,742
    Logic for you:

    We dropped the first bomb, and asked again for a surrender. The response was, essentially, "Eh, we'll think about it." They didn't respond again for three days. Does that sound like a people who were willing to admit defeat? Does that sound like it would have been possible to invade through conventional means without loss of live far exceeding what the bombs brought? This was a people too proud to admit defeat when it was obvious to them and the rest of the world. They had three days after the first bomb to surrender. They didn't.

    So we dropped another. That was enough.

    The answer:
    We dropped the first one to try to end the war. We dropped the second one because the first one didn't impress the Japanese enough.
    I don't argue to be right, I argue to be proven wrong. Because I'm aware that the collective intelligence of the community likely has more to offer to me by enlightening me, than I do to an individual by "winning" an argument with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    I don't always wear tennis shoes, but when I do, I speak Russian. In French.

  12. #252
    Scarab Lord Unf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Medellín, Colombia
    Posts
    4,620


    War is war.

    War is not nice.

  13. #253
    One of the other reasons was that both Hiroshima and Nagasaki werent touched by the firebombing runs that the US did before dropping the atomic bombs.

    They wanted to drop the bombs on cities that werent already being firebombed for maxomum psychological and "tactical" damage, as they were both major islands in the Chukogu/Honshu region and a sizeable force was based on one of them (forget which one). Not to mention the weather on the day Hiroshama was bombed was pretty perfect for it.

    Nagasaki was mostly done to reinforce the fear that the Japanese would have felt after the Hiroshima bombing. It could have been possible that the Military council passed off the Hiroshima bombing as a natural disaster and hence kept Japan fighting, the Nagasaki bomb was mostly to bring the point home, that it WAS a bomb and the US had the far superior power. I.e. Surrender now or we'll bomb Tokyo next.

    Oh yeah, now that I recall, one of the councillors for the Japan War council actually denied the damage done to Hiroshima was from an Atomic weapon. He flatly refused to believe the US had these things, until they bombed Nagasaki.

  14. #254
    Warchief Lansworthy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Relocating from Sera to Skyrim.
    Posts
    2,047
    I don't know..

    Maybe it was a DON'T FUCK WITH US AGAIN OR WE'LL BLOW THE FUCK OUT OF TOKYO
    >>This is where I'd put a witty quote for my Signature<<
    IF I HAD ONE

  15. #255
    Stood in the Fire Riff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Sussex, UK
    Posts
    423
    Would it surprise you to know that Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the ONLY times nuclear weapons have been deployed offensively. Ever. From that day to this.

    The world has seen what these weapons can do and that has made everyone very careful, so careful in fact they have not been used again - and I'm not sure anyone in this world has the balls or heart to press the button. Countries may step up to each other, but nobody wants to be that guy.

  16. #256
    Herald of the Titans Theodon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,772
    Instead of looking at the reasons behind dropping the bomb, people should be looking at what caused the war in the first place. If America forced Japan in to war through crippling Japans economy then the acts after that fact aren't really justified if you forced the war in the first place, from my point of view.

    You also have some facts going back further than that; Japan was currently engaged in aggressive expansion against China, occupying areas of Indo-China after the second world war when the Nazis pulled out. The trade embargo that triggered the war was done in protest to this expansion by Japan.

    Going back 10 or so years again; Most of the world was in an economic shithole, which Japan managed to pull themselves out of ahead of the other countries, so they started to build up their military forces. They required larger amounts of iron and ores from China and Malaya specifically. The only military force back then that could stand against them was the American navy, as they had the biggest in the world back then. Japan ended up spending 70% of their budget on their military. Russia whooped them through superiority in the field of tanks and heavy artillery.

    They invaded China for oil, as their economy was heavily based on petroleum fueling industrial growth. Rationing was introduced into Japan in 1938 in order to support the China campaign and the national debt spiraled as the government borrowed more and more to sustain enormous defense expenditures. due to their industrial growth being fuelled by petroleum (no pun intended) the trade embargo America placed upon them really hit them hard.

    The leadership of the country back then seemed to have dug themselves in to a hole, and the only way out for them was to take from their neighbors. Perhaps America realized just what nuking industrial areas would do to Japan, considering it was this industry built by war, for war, that moved things along. Sadly, it's not the army that build those forces, but civilians.

    So what caused the war? what caused things to lead to 2 nukes killing many, many people? A small group of people known as a government wanting more shit. Human nature really.

    http://www.buzzle.com/articles/why-d...rl-harbor.html
    http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/JAP1930.html
    Last edited by Theodon; 2011-11-28 at 02:43 PM.

  17. #257
    Stood in the Fire Lastblow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    473
    guys its alright what happened is the past im sure japan made some questionable decisions to all that matters is we are friends and they send anime and manga over here.

    Dr.Pepper is made from fairy tears. Pokemon IGN: Josh FC: 0662-4407-8552

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ogdru Jahad View Post
    Millions have not died because of the radiation, and millions never will from cancers etc. Operation Downfall had estimates of 3 MILLION casualties? Can you wrap your mind around that number? Neither can I. I'd say tops 750k people died/were affected by the bombs. A large number, but a necessary sacrifice that saved millions.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 06:55 AM ----------



    I recommend you read up on "the rape of nanking" and the "bataan death march". While I love the Japanese today. Back then they were a horrific bloodthirsty people. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK AGAINST THE JAPANESE. Just merely stating the fact that they committed some of the worst atrocities I've ever read about.
    Most countries have a dirt / blood on their hands, just look at what happened to the Native Americans. It really is silly to go back and forth pointing out all the crimes each contry has commited.

    What I don't like is when people try to justify those atrocities.

    The mass murder of civilians can never be justified in my eyes, no matter which country is responsible or the method used.

  19. #259
    Some day those of you who call the bombings unnecessary will hopefully attend college and actually learn about what would most likely have happened if the bombs were not dropped. Google would also help.

    Facts are, Japan would most likely have not surrendered if the bombs hadn't been dropped. Far more people would have died in a ground invasion of Japan. The Japanese people were ready to fight the Americans to death and were completely prepared for Americas ground invasion. The Americans had to make it seem like they could continue such devastating attacks without ever attempting the ground invasion. The Americans had to convince the Japanese people that such a war would be completely hopeless for Japan.

    Again, in the end, many more people would have died in a ground invasion. Many more cities would have been destroyed in sieges. Many more civilians would have died. It was am extremely tough decision, I'm sure, but it was the right one in the big picture of keeping casualties to a minimum on both sides.

  20. #260
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Århus
    Posts
    17,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    Most countries have a dirt / blood on their hands, just look at what happened to the Native Americans. It really is silly to go back and forth pointing out all the crimes each contry has commited.

    What I don't like is when people try to justify those atrocities.

    The mass murder of civilians can never be justified in my eyes, no matter which country is responsible or the method used.
    see this is my point exactly... think all the atrocities are bad instead of seeing one atrocity as horrible while another was good or just a necessary evil >_> Its just rationalizing and cognitive dissonance

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •