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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    lol come on now,if you think im wrong prove me wrong.quote me and show me where im wrong.heres a another piece of info.do you know the USA never declared war on Germany.the germans declared war on the USA after the USA declared war on japan.if German was so evil why did we not go after them first?because its all lies.
    I am not going to waste my time, on a conspiracy theroist. Your ideas are fragments of your paranoia, and your writing makes no sense. Its all one thought screams.

  2. #342
    The Patient Faunwea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elohel View Post
    Slightly off-topic but it annoys me to no fucking end when someone complains about the decision to nuke by the US. If you think that was a messed up decision, you really ought to read some history of Japan's actions in China before and during WWII, you'll likely lose your sympathy.
    The Rape of Nanking comes to mind...

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by GDiamond View Post
    The Rape of Nanking comes to mind...
    No one is saying that Japan was innocent, but on the other hand 2 wrongs don't make a right.

    It just adds more fuel to the fire so to speak.

  4. #344
    Stood in the Fire BlackPyramid's Avatar
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    Don't know if it's been said already, but they wanted to bomb Germany, more precisely Dresden, but they couldn't, cause hitting the target with the nuke required them to fly very low over it and Germany was covered in mist by that time. If it had been otherwise, most likely I wouldn't exist.

    However, dropping the nuke wasn't meant to win the war by destroying an army, but should demonstrate the power of the U.S. by hitting the enemy at his heart, their cultural treasures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    If eggs are non vegetarian ejalculation is genocide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    So all vegans want to kill animals.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    No one is saying that Japan was innocent, but on the other hand 2 wrongs don't make a right.

    AHHHHHHHHHH, why do you post such idealogical non-sense about WWII. My God children, educate yourselves, read, read, read, then comment.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Therdin View Post
    "But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone - the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people - the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.
    Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization."

    - Japanese emperor Hirohito
    Gyokuon-hōsō to his nation after accepting defeat.

    Obviously the bombs did nothing to sway them. I mean the Emperor of the country only said it did but w/e what does he know
    Let me just tell you, I like your style.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPyramid View Post
    Don't know if it's been said already, but they wanted to bomb Germany, more precisely Dresden, but they couldn't, cause hitting the target with the nuke required them to fly very low over it and Germany was covered in mist by that time. If it had been otherwise, most likely I wouldn't exist.

    However, dropping the nuke wasn't meant to win the war by destroying an army, but should demonstrate the power of the U.S. by hitting the enemy at his heart, their cultural treasures.
    Exactly, by destroying the spirit to fight of a country that would rather see every one of its inhabitants die before surrendering to a land invasion.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    Mmhm...I suppose we have to look at it in light of the time the decision was made in, but even so, I am also morally disturbed by the decision. Let us hope that no such decision will be made again.
    It was a choice between bombing two cities with an untested weapon or invading Japan. When the invasion plans were drawn up by people who were unaware of the atomic bomb project, the casualty projections were as follows: Allied casualties - 1.7-4 Million, including 400,000-800,000 fatalities. Japanese casualties- 5-10 Million fatalities with no estimates on the number of wounded. It also would most likely have continued the war for at least another 3 years. Helluva moral decision huh?

    Source: Google search "Operation Downfall", "Operation Olympic" and "Operation Coronet"

    Btw, that was a best case scenario. And since the Japanese had figured out where the landings were going to take place, the actual casualty figures would probably have been much, much worse.
    Last edited by Catrilia; 2011-11-28 at 09:08 PM.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPyramid View Post
    Don't know if it's been said already, but they wanted to bomb Germany, more precisely Dresden, but they couldn't, cause hitting the target with the nuke required them to fly very low over it and Germany was covered in mist by that time. If it had been otherwise, most likely I wouldn't exist.

    However, dropping the nuke wasn't meant to win the war by destroying an army, but should demonstrate the power of the U.S. by hitting the enemy at his heart, their cultural treasures.
    This one is rich... ahh der, Germany had already surrendered on May 7, 1945, the first bomb "Trinity" was tested on July 16, 1945......

  10. #350
    For all the garbage posting in this thread, there have been some spectacular and well-educated posts. Therdin and Catrilia you guys are alright in my book.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    lol come on now,if you think im wrong prove me wrong.quote me and show me where im wrong.heres a another piece of info.do you know the USA never declared war on Germany.the germans declared war on the USA after the USA declared war on japan.if German was so evil why did we not go after them first?because its all lies.
    All I could think of when reading this was this

    http://video.adultswim.com/family-gu...th-poland.html

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 09:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by GG you got me View Post
    For all the garbage posting in this thread, there have been some spectacular and well-educated posts. Therdin and Catrilia you guys are alright in my book.
    Thank you sir, Its nice to hear after being called "a fundamentally inhuman piece of garbage" by someone decrying a nation for their lack morality.
    Last edited by Therdin; 2011-11-28 at 09:11 PM.

  12. #352
    Stood in the Fire The King in Yellow's Avatar
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    Hiroshima also had one very large military target:

    The Mitsubishi factories, the USA definitely wanted to take those out.

    Nagasaki was a " miss" apparently, because of the weather, they wanted to hit a far larger area.

    @ Catrilia, you forget the people that were born with radiation illnesses and mutations throughout the years, those aren't in the numbers. But yes the USA wanted to prevent a full scale invasion, because they feared Japan would fight till the last man standing.

    Further more it was the psychological effect, showing Japan that the USA had no problem at all, killing citizens of Japan, they have also shown this by bombing Tokyo with Napalm before the bombs.
    I sometimes organise operas, like This one

    Camilla: You, sir, should unmask.
    Stranger: Indeed?
    Cassilda: Indeed, it's time. We have all laid aside disguise but you.
    Stranger: I wear no mask.
    Camilla: (Terrified, aside to Cassilda.) No mask? No mask!

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by GDiamond View Post
    The Rape of Nanking comes to mind...
    In the similar vein, the Japanese treatment of prisoners of war during WWII was not unlike the german treatment of jews and invalids in Auschwitz. But yes the Japanese genocide in China has gone largely unheralded in history which is a shame. There are some very brave stories from that side of the world during that time.

  14. #354
    As others have previously stated, it needed to have shock and awe to it. I think using the nukes was the right choice, otherwise a full scale mainland invasion of Japan would be inevitable and cause hundreds of thousands more casualties to both sides, plus with the nukes we lost no American lives. Sure it was used on the cities and caused civilian casualties and collateral, but there were also military targets there as well. Though I digress, Shock and Awe was one of the main points to be achieved by the weapon to force a surrender of Japan.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by The King in Yellow View Post
    Hiroshima also had one very large military target:

    The Mitsubishi factories, the USA definitely wanted to take those out.

    Nagasaki was a " miss" apparently, because of the weather, they wanted to hit a far larger area.

    @ Catrilia, you forget the people that were born with radiation illnesses and mutations throughout the years, those aren't in the numbers. But yes the USA wanted to prevent a full scale invasion, because they feared Japan would fight till the last man standing.

    Further more it was the psychological effect, showing Japan that the USA had no problem at all, killing citizens of Japan, they have also shown this by bombing Tokyo with Napalm before the bombs.
    It was a realistic fear too. The Japanese military had been losing the war most notably since Midway, and still fought horrendous battles like Okinawa that for some reason are largely forgotten today but that yielded staggering casualties on both sides and some of the most gripping war stories in history.



    As a brief aside, I'd like to mention that in my younger years I was lucky enough to be in a golf group with an older gentleman who had a pretty quiet demeanor and really didn't talk. He was sort of the kind of guy that if you asked him to go out for a beer after a round he might tell you to fuck off. As I later found out, according to his brother he had been in the first wave of land troops at Iwo Jima and was so affected by what had happened that he didn't talk about it for (as far as I know) the rest of his life.

    I just think people tend to lose scope of how horrible World War 2 was, because the greatest generation fought it and had a way of making it seem like it was taken in stride.
    Last edited by GG you got me; 2011-11-28 at 09:28 PM.

  16. #356
    Stood in the Fire The King in Yellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG you got me View Post
    It was a realistic fear too. The Japanese military had been losing the war most notably since Midway, and still fought horrendous battles like Okinawa that for some reason are largely forgotten today but that yielded staggering casualties on both sides and some of the most gripping war stories in history.
    Indeed, still I do not agree on the weapon they used, but on the other side; many, many, many millions of more casualties have been spared though.

    Not to mention a war which would lead towards the destruction of the entire country, instead of just two cities.
    I sometimes organise operas, like This one

    Camilla: You, sir, should unmask.
    Stranger: Indeed?
    Cassilda: Indeed, it's time. We have all laid aside disguise but you.
    Stranger: I wear no mask.
    Camilla: (Terrified, aside to Cassilda.) No mask? No mask!

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by The King in Yellow View Post

    @ Catrilia, you forget the people that were born with radiation illnesses and mutations throughout the years, those aren't in the numbers.
    To be fair the U.S military did not understand radiation sickness when the bomb was dropped (at least that is what i remember from my history books, if i'm wrong i'll accept it). That isn't to say it is a free pass because they didn't. They hadn't done enough tests to understand the radiation had such devastating long term effects.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by The King in Yellow View Post
    Indeed, still I do not agree on the weapon they used, but on the other side; many, many, many millions of more casualties have been spared though.

    Not to mention a war which would lead towards the destruction of the entire country, instead of just two cities.
    It's certainly a moral quagmire. I think that is why it remains so heatedly debated to this day. It's just nice when the opposite side of the argument can also realistically concede what a land invasion of Japan might have ultimately meant. Nice talking with you =).

  19. #359
    Stood in the Fire BlackPyramid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkbusster View Post
    This one is rich... ahh der, Germany had already surrendered on May 7, 1945, the first bomb "Trinity" was tested on July 16, 1945......
    Don't know where I got my information from to be honest, I just remembered that. However, Hiroshima was bombed after the war was won, or am I awfully wrong here? They could also have punished Germany.
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    If eggs are non vegetarian ejalculation is genocide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    So all vegans want to kill animals.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPyramid View Post
    Don't know where I got my information from to be honest, I just remembered that. However, Hiroshima was bombed after the war was won, or am I awfully wrong here? They could also have punished Germany.
    What ... what? lol.

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