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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by punkbusster View Post
    I am not going to waste my time, on a conspiracy theroist. Your ideas are fragments of your paranoia, and your writing makes no sense. Its all one thought screams.
    thats your choice,just remember i stated facts and these facts you have to learn yourself.the USA will not teach you them because it makes them look bad.do you really think wars are NOT FOUGHT over $?do you really think the USA was right in stealing all the german scientists and making them work for nasa.dont believe me fine,just google the first trip to the moon and read the names of the people that worked for nasa at that time.

    where am i wrong about korea and china?the USA is globalizing the world economy so corporations can get rich.do you really think the USA did not know an attack was going to happen in pearl harbor?see im stating facts not conspiracys.

    so i give you this last piece of info,do you know the real meaning of thanksgiving?why it was a celebration?a group of pilgrims helped a tribe of Indians slaughter/kill a rival tribe of Indians.so to celebrate there victory the Indians offered a fest to there new allies the pilgrims.its messed up but its the truth,do some research and you find it hell you can even see that on the history channel.

  2. #362
    They had a map with a multitude of possible targets on their list at the initial selection for bombing with A-weapons.
    After some days of debate they decided to bomb the cities with the least historical and cultural assets, so that the Japanese culture would still be preserved post-war. After bombing Hiroshima though, the Japanese didn't surrender unconditionally, and thus they decided to drop a second bomb.
    Normally that bomb would have been dropped on the city of Kokura, but due to bad weather conditions and reduced sight, they changed target to Nagasaki, which what at that time also operating as a main weapons facility with the use of the then popular Mitsubishi shipyard.

    Hope that enlightens a bit of your questions

  3. #363
    Stood in the Fire The King in Yellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPyramid View Post
    Don't know where I got my information from to be honest, I just remembered that. However, Hiroshima was bombed after the war was won, or am I awfully wrong here? They could also have punished Germany.
    May 8 is considered to be the end of the war in Europe yes. Japan tried to surrender trough it's war council as early as mid July, to the Soviet Union and try and contactthe Allied forces trough them, however the Emperor decided Japan would fight till the end, the atomic bombs were such a shock Japan was forced to surrender.

    Some Japanese forces on the pacific islands didn't even surrender till the early 70s, the isolated ones that is.

    @ Meathead it is recent information that the USA had fired on a Japanese vessel on "accident", which eventually led to the events including but not limited to Pearl Harbour. Japan did declare war, while many believe they didn't. (Aka making Pearl Harbour a war crime.) Only the declaration of war arrived later than the attack of Pearl Harbour, got to love technology back then.

    It is also known that both the Soviet Union and the USA send troops and equipment to China as early as 1937, during the Second.. or was it third? Sino-Japan War.
    Last edited by The King in Yellow; 2011-11-28 at 09:48 PM.
    I sometimes organise operas, like This one

    Camilla: You, sir, should unmask.
    Stranger: Indeed?
    Cassilda: Indeed, it's time. We have all laid aside disguise but you.
    Stranger: I wear no mask.
    Camilla: (Terrified, aside to Cassilda.) No mask? No mask!

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Falkus View Post
    Didn't the Japanese kind of realise that they woke a sleeping giant with their attack on Pearl Harbor? Personally, I think dropping the bomb was unnecessary. I can understand the reasoning behind it - what little there was, the whole "shocking them into submission", but I think the US went way out of line on that particular course of action.
    It was either that, or a possible continuation of WWII for many years to come, afterwards it might even have saved millions of lives worldwide, sadly for Japan they were the ones taking the hit at the time though. And don't get me wrong, I'm no US fanboy by far. I love Japan, it's culture and people.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumocolor View Post
    Sounds familiar. Just like they want to kill every society they don't understand or can't control to this day.

    Next to Germany, the US has the most innocent blood on their hands, not bad for a country only a couple of centuries old.
    Really??? Hmmm maybe you should go talk to the Chinese about that. Maybe you never paid attention to what the Japanese did to them when they occupied their country or many other countries in that region.

    Of course nukes aren't moral, no one pretended they were. Then again this wasn't a moral war by any means on any side. The Japanese Emperor might have surrendered for immunity, but would any European country have let Hitler surrendered with immunity? No, and this guy wasn't much better.

    As for the civilian vs soldier issue, in this war the only difference was ability to fight. If you were able you were forced to fight on both sides. both were military targets and lets face it, its pretty much impossible to drop a nuke without civilian casualties. The Emperor was just as guilty for the bombings as the US, he was given an choice and refused surrender, the first bomb was dropped. He saw the devastation and still refused, 3 days later the second was dropped. Then he finally came to his senses.

    Point of this is this was a war of which the likes no one has seen since, and no one can imagine. In survival morality goes out the door and that's what this war was about. Instead of arguing who was wrong or right we should be trying our best to make sure the world never escalates to this level of depravity again.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    thats your choice,just remember i stated facts and these facts you have to learn yourself.the USA will not teach you them because it makes them look bad.do you really think wars are NOT FOUGHT over $?do you really think the USA was right in stealing all the german scientists and making them work for nasa.dont believe me fine,just google the first trip to the moon and read the names of the people that worked for nasa at that time.

    where am i wrong about korea and china?the USA is globalizing the world economy so corporations can get rich.do you really think the USA did not know an attack was going to happen in pearl harbor?see im stating facts not conspiracys.

    so i give you this last piece of info,do you know the real meaning of thanksgiving?why it was a celebration?a group of pilgrims helped a tribe of Indians slaughter/kill a rival tribe of Indians.so to celebrate there victory the Indians offered a fest to there new allies the pilgrims.its messed up but its the truth,do some research and you find it hell you can even see that on the history channel.
    Economic globalization has actually hurt most developed countries, like the U.S., and bolstered developing countries. Look at GDP growth in the world and you will see this. Goods and services are now more available to all, but countries are losing their exclusivity and superiority in the process.

    Stating "see im stating facts not conspiracys" without any sources for anything you have said is arrogant and actually hurts your argument, which needs some severe help to begin with.

    Also, any public middle school and beyond would teach that the colonization of America was a constant bloody war with the indigenous population. This isn't a secret our education system keeps from us, so don't act as if it is, for it makes you appear ignorant and not us.
    Last edited by IIBlackmagikII; 2011-11-28 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #367
    Stood in the Fire The King in Yellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adhal-Blackrock View Post
    Really??? Hmmm maybe you should go talk to the Chinese about that. Maybe you never paid attention to what the Japanese did to them when they occupied their country or many other countries in that region.

    Of course nukes aren't moral, no one pretended they were. Then again this wasn't a moral war by any means on any side. The Japanese Emperor might have surrendered for immunity, but would any European country have let Hitler surrendered with immunity? No, and this guy wasn't much better.

    As for the civilian vs soldier issue, in this war the only difference was ability to fight. If you were able you were forced to fight on both sides. both were military targets and lets face it, its pretty much impossible to drop a nuke without civilian casualties. The Emperor was just as guilty for the bombings as the US, he was given an choice and refused surrender, the first bomb was dropped. He saw the devastation and still refused, 3 days later the second was dropped. Then he finally came to his senses.

    Point of this is this was a war of which the likes no one has seen since, and no one can imagine. In survival morality goes out the door and that's what this war was about. Instead of arguing who was wrong or right we should be trying our best to make sure the world never escalates to this level of depravity again.
    Even though I agree with a lot, morality does not completely gets tossed out of the door in times of war. There were still Rules of Engagement, etc. etc. The best examples the British trying to rescue German sailors from the ships they sank.

    Also the Emperor wouldn't surrender, even after the bombs he wanted to fight on. The Japanese War Council surrendered, with that they forced the emperor to sign the treaty... Emperor Hirohito was rather... insane..

    And to you others... can you stop talking about conspiracies, other wars and trade globalization.... I believe this thread is not about that..
    Last edited by The King in Yellow; 2011-11-28 at 09:52 PM.
    I sometimes organise operas, like This one

    Camilla: You, sir, should unmask.
    Stranger: Indeed?
    Cassilda: Indeed, it's time. We have all laid aside disguise but you.
    Stranger: I wear no mask.
    Camilla: (Terrified, aside to Cassilda.) No mask? No mask!

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    thats your choice,just remember i stated facts and these facts you have to learn yourself.the USA will not teach you them because it makes them look bad.do you really think wars are NOT FOUGHT over $?do you really think the USA was right in stealing all the german scientists and making them work for nasa.dont believe me fine,just google the first trip to the moon and read the names of the people that worked for nasa at that time.
    The captured them? No a lot came to US AND Soviet Union for immunity, Hitler killed anyone who did not agree with his ways/methods. They then worked for the US/Soviet for quite a bit of money. Everyone needs a job, were these brilliant scientist supposed to take a job washing dishes at a restaurant???

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Lastblow View Post
    guys its alright what happened is the past im sure japan made some questionable decisions to all that matters is we are friends and they send anime and manga over here.
    In fact, if it wasn`t for American occupation, there would be no anime.
    All of the first anime artist have said that they were inspired to start drawling after seeing Disney cartoons for the first time (Disney cartoons were not allowed into Japan pre American occupation).

    What I want to know is how sleeping beauty inspired such disturbing crap (i.e. fucked up disturbing fetishes that get portrayed in anime all the time)

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by The King in Yellow View Post
    Indeed, still I do not agree on the weapon they used, but on the other side; many, many, many millions of more casualties have been spared though.

    Not to mention a war which would lead towards the destruction of the entire country, instead of just two cities.
    I think there are also some other factors worth considering. First, if the war continued for at least another 3 years, with even the best case casualty numbers, the numbers of returning soldiers would have been devastated. At the very least, this could have delayed the baby boom which helped to drive American prosperity into the 80's. Secondly, as part of Operation Downfall, Japan would have become a "nation without cities". So, the two largest economies in the second half of the twentieth century would have spent years wiping each other out and recovering from the process instead of creating computers, compact cars and all of the other neat shit they've done for the past 60 years

    Source: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/giangrec.htm

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's nice. I didn't speak to the efficacy of dropping the bomb. If you don't like the topic of morality, don't speak to me about the subject.
    You did, several times by now I might add critique the purpose, the efficacy, the "need" through a moral lens. You are arguing that the attack shouldn't have taken place because the Japanese would be scared by the Soviets and that it was EVIL to strike first and NOT wait for the Japanese reaction to the Soviet invasion. You are making a MORAL judgement of a military tactic, that it was "evil" to not wait and see how the Japanese would react. It's a tactic. Analyze it on it's tactical efficacy but not on it's moral subjectivity.
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  12. #372
    Japan was moving over 90 THOUSAND men to the beaches we were going to land on, with another 40-45 thousand coming up as reinforcements right about the time we were supposed to land.

    The whole operation of the beach landing would have made Dday look like a god damn cake walk. It would have taken 200k marines to secure the beach AT LEAST. And thats the first few days and few hundred yards on what would have been one of the biggest ground conflict in history. total casualties would have made in by itself the third most deadly war in history.

    several hundred thousand more soldiers were scattered around the nation, and the populace was being armed to the teeth with everything from hunting rifles to god damn bamboo spears. Not a nice freaking time.

  13. #373
    A lot of you really have no clue what you are talking about, you need to read more, and not just take your high school history class and what your liberal friends tell you as reality.

    Lets go over a few points:

    Was the bomb justified? YES. Look how many people died in urban battles. Look how many died in Stalingrad. 300,000 Russians died in taking berlin alone. One city. 300k... WAY more then both A-bombs killed. Ontop of that, as the Germans inavaded Russia and the Russians invaded Germany, there were massive rapings/murders crimes against civilians. If the USA had invaded Japan, we would have lost like 500k-1 million men, and they would have lost many times more. I can also tell you there would be a whole lot of Japanese with a lot of white features in the years to come, if you get my drift. I garentee they would be discriminated against by the other Japanese. Things would be a lot worse for both counties, the A-Bombs savd a lot of people.

    Both cities were supporting the war effort and were indeed military targets. Also, let me be person #137 to say if you mess with the bull you get the horns.. yeah we stopped trading with them, I'll echo all the liberals who say our response for Pearl Harbor was over kill by saying thier responce to us not trading with them was overkill.

    Next point: You don't hear this because its not as widely known as the Nazis.. but the Japanese were WAY worse then the Germans, or anyone else in WW2. Any non Jew would beg to be under nazi control rather then Japanese. Japanese saw ALL non Japanese as below them, and took great pleasure in torturing and killing non Japanese. Look what they did to the chinese for years before WW2 started. All you hear is oh poor jews, look at what happened to them, what about all the Chinese the Japs killed. Look it up if your school didn't teach you.

    In addition, the Japanese were much worse to their prisoners then the Nazis were. They beheaded and starved thousands of allied prisoners. The Nazis may have machine gunned a few allied prisoners but the Japanese tourtured thiers first... big difference. While the average Japanese citizen did may not have been like this, they did have the belief they were the best and most of them would have fought to the death if told to by thier leaders.

    Conclusion is: A-Bombs were justifed, and they saved many, many lives, both Japanese and American. The Japanese were hands down the cruelest of the nations involved in WW2 and had it comming. Lastly, if the A-Bomb had not been used then, it would have been used in Korea or maybe the Cuban Missle Crisis or name any other cold war conflict.

    Last thing I want to say, is I find it funny how many euros hate the USA yet play games made in the USA, watch our movies, and listen to our music. I think 75% of them have a MLP avatar which again... is a product of the USA. LOL at you.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by IIBlackmagikII View Post
    Economic globalization has actually hurt most developed countries, like the U.S., and bolstered developing countries. Look at GDP growth in the world and you will see this. Goods and services are now more available to all, but countries are losing their exclusivity and superiority in the process.

    Stating "see im stating facts not conspiracys" without any sources for anything you have said is arrogant and actually hurts your argument, which needs some severe help to begin with.

    Also, any public middle school and beyond would teach that the colonization of America was a constant bloody war with the indigenous population. This isn't a secret our education system keeps from us, so don't act as if it is, for it makes you appear ignorant and not us.
    wow you are suck a flip flopper.you tell me im wrong and im stating conspiracy's,and now you are agreeing with me.American corporations are expanding over seas,they are doing great.the only ones hurting from economic globalization are the American people whos jobs have been sent over seas so the corporations can save $ on labor and health care.

    so you agree that economic globalization is happening,good thats the first step.the 2nd step is seeing that wars are fought over $ and the 2 are connected to one another.the 3rd step one has to know how to start a war,answer= piss off the america people so they back the war.demonize a country/group/person and go after them because they could hurt America.once we take them out we never leave and we run there country how we see fit.we exploit there people for cheap labor and resources.

    o and dont forget corporations get rich just from the war itself.for example who do you think supplies the troops with food and bottled water?ammo and clothing,they are all made by the millions for the troops by corporations ordered by the American government= $$$$$.

    im American and they do not teach the real meaning of anyhting in ours schools.they teach that the meaning of thanksgiving is because the pilgrims made it threw a hard winter.while thats in part true,they leave out the killing,slaughtering of a tribe of Indians.read between the lines and remember history is written by the victors.

  15. #375
    There's no point in discussing this really. You'll just go round and round in circles. If you seek moral answers for something like this, you'd have to consult God. The sad thing is, after the Iraq War some American's are beginning to take the view again of their divinely ordained destiny. Which played out pretty terribly with the Philippines War for starters. The main question people should always ask is what is excess? It seems people continually blind themselves to this by trying to portray everything as a means to an end while excusing all the tragic excesses.

  16. #376
    The Patient Wulfstan's Avatar
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    "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

    Also Japan should have surrendered after the first atomic bomb was dropped.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by The King in Yellow View Post
    May 8 is considered to be the end of the war in Europe yes. Japan tried to surrender trough it's war council as early as mid July, to the Soviet Union and try and contactthe Allied forces trough them, however the Emperor decided Japan would fight till the end, the atomic bombs were such a shock Japan was forced to surrender.

    Some Japanese forces on the pacific islands didn't even surrender till the early 70s, the isolated ones that is.

    @ Meathead it is recent information that the USA had fired on a Japanese vessel on "accident", which eventually led to the events including but not limited to Pearl Harbour. Japan did declare war, while many believe they didn't. (Aka making Pearl Harbour a war crime.) Only the declaration of war arrived later than the attack of Pearl Harbour, got to love technology back then.

    It is also known that both the Soviet Union and the USA send troops and equipment to China as early as 1937, during the Second.. or was it third? Sino-Japan
    War.
    yes you are in part correct.but remember no one act starts a war.firing on a jap ship was just one thing the USA did to provoke a war with japan.but when it comes down to the brass balls of it all,the war with japn was over $ and who would rule and exploit the land and resources of the east/pacific.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    wow you are suck a flip flopper.you tell me im wrong and im stating conspiracy's,and now you are agreeing with me.American corporations are expanding over seas,they are doing great.the only ones hurting from economic globalization are the American people whos jobs have been sent over seas so the corporations can save $ on labor and health care.

    so you agree that economic globalization is happening,good thats the first step.the 2nd step is seeing that wars are fought over $ and the 2 are connected to one another.the 3rd step one has to know how to start a war,answer= piss off the america people so they back the war.demonize a country/group/person and go after them because they could hurt America.once we take them out we never leave and we run there country how we see fit.we exploit there people for cheap labor and resources.

    o and dont forget corporations get rich just from the war itself.for example who do you think supplies the troops with food and bottled water?ammo and clothing,they are all made by the millions for the troops by corporations ordered by the American government= $$$$$.

    im American and they do not teach the real meaning of anyhting in ours schools.they teach that the meaning of thanksgiving is because the pilgrims made it threw a hard winter.while thats in part true,they leave out the killing,slaughtering of a tribe of Indians.read between the lines and remember history is written by the victors.
    And Black helicopters, and 9/11 was a cover-up, and spy satellites, and and and big brother man (*takes huge hit off the bong*) they are like all in it to oppress the people man. America is all about the dollars, they dont care about me man. they are like totally brainwashing you to buy ipods and be like a robot man!

    I'm like so much smarter then everyone else, I see through the shroud of corporate hypnosis.
    /end sarcasm
    Meathead is a fitting name for you

  19. #379
    Stood in the Fire The King in Yellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
    A lot of you really have no clue what you are talking about, you need to read more, and not just take your high school history class and what your liberal friends tell you as reality.

    Lets go over a few points:

    Was the bomb justified? YES. Look how many people died in urban battles. Look how many died in Stalingrad. 300,000 Russians died in taking berlin alone. One city. 300k... WAY more then both A-bombs killed. Ontop of that, as the Germans inavaded Russia and the Russians invaded Germany, there were massive rapings/murders crimes against civilians. If the USA had invaded Japan, we would have lost like 500k-1 million men, and they would have lost many times more. I can also tell you there would be a whole lot of Japanese with a lot of white features in the years to come, if you get my drift. I garentee they would be discriminated against by the other Japanese. Things would be a lot worse for both counties, the A-Bombs savd a lot of people.

    Both cities were supporting the war effort and were indeed military targets. Also, let me be person #137 to say if you mess with the bull you get the horns.. yeah we stopped trading with them, I'll echo all the liberals who say our response for Pearl Harbor was over kill by saying thier responce to us not trading with them was overkill.

    Next point: You don't hear this because its not as widely known as the Nazis.. but the Japanese were WAY worse then the Germans, or anyone else in WW2. Any non Jew would beg to be under nazi control rather then Japanese. Japanese saw ALL non Japanese as below them, and took great pleasure in torturing and killing non Japanese. Look what they did to the chinese for years before WW2 started. All you hear is oh poor jews, look at what happened to them, what about all the Chinese the Japs killed. Look it up if your school didn't teach you.

    In addition, the Japanese were much worse to their prisoners then the Nazis were. They beheaded and starved thousands of allied prisoners. The Nazis may have machine gunned a few allied prisoners but the Japanese tourtured thiers first... big difference. While the average Japanese citizen did may not have been like this, they did have the belief they were the best and most of them would have fought to the death if told to by thier leaders.

    Conclusion is: A-Bombs were justifed, and they saved many, many lives, both Japanese and American. The Japanese were hands down the cruelest of the nations involved in WW2 and had it comming. Lastly, if the A-Bomb had not been used then, it would have been used in Korea or maybe the Cuban Missle Crisis or name any other cold war conflict.

    Last thing I want to say, is I find it funny how many euros hate the USA yet play games made in the USA, watch our movies, and listen to our music. I think 75% of them have a MLP avatar which again... is a product of the USA. LOL at you.
    *cough* American and British concentration camps *cough* Yes they did exist *cough*

    Still... IN MY OPINION the bombs were not justified, but necessary, let me also tell you, Nagasaki was not much of a military target, Hiroshima was.

    I can also tell you there would be a whole lot of Japanese with a lot of white features in the years to come, if you get my drift. I garentee they would be discriminated against by the other Japanese.
    Okinawa says hello, it still happened.

    The Germans also tortured their prisoners to an extend, murdered them, let their children dig their parent's graves, etc. both countries did the most inhumane things.

    Any non Jew would beg to be under nazi control rather then Japanese. Japanese saw ALL non Japanese as below them, and took great pleasure in torturing and killing non Japanese.
    Now that's just racist... then again, quite a large portion of your post is.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 11:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    yes you are in part correct.but remember no one act starts a war.firing on a jap ship was just one thing the USA did to provoke a war with japan.but when it comes down to the brass balls of it all,the war with japn was over $ and who would rule and exploit the land and resources of the east/pacific.
    No it wasn't, Japan wanted to "free" the colonies of Asian cultures from the "Western Oppressors" aka: Imperialism.

    The war in the pacific however started with the Sino-Japan war.... something which both nations have been fighting for thousands of years.... you might really want to open a history book sometimes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfstan View Post
    "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

    Also Japan should have surrendered after the first atomic bomb was dropped.
    Even if they did, the message would have been too late and the second bomb would have still been dropped. Japan should have forced Emperor Hirohito to surrender before the bombs were even considered.
    Last edited by The King in Yellow; 2011-11-28 at 10:25 PM.
    I sometimes organise operas, like This one

    Camilla: You, sir, should unmask.
    Stranger: Indeed?
    Cassilda: Indeed, it's time. We have all laid aside disguise but you.
    Stranger: I wear no mask.
    Camilla: (Terrified, aside to Cassilda.) No mask? No mask!

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    Actually now I am curious as to what they write in Japan's history books >.<

    Hehe...
    From what I understand, German schools basically cover 1933-1945 in the amount of time it takes to unwrap a candy bar lol.

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