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  1. #81
    The Patient Mirdamor's Avatar
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    If US could nuke 2 japanese cities full of people

    why couldn't they bomb Iran?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    obviously an army that has its personal commit suicide to damage the enemy as a first choice isnt gonna last very long and very quickly run out of pilots... Saying that they would just instantly go die doesnt stick well with me - all the footage you see of kamikaze pilots only shows that they try to hit the things with their craft after they sustain damage or otherwise lose ability to fight
    You are assuming I meant they were told to just go fly into things. Stop assuming. Once again, go do some research on the subject.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Which is why they basicly gutted Japanese culture when they took over after the War? Pre War Japan is very different from post war Japan. They also firebombed the hell out of Tokyo. They turned like half the city into smoking rubble.
    When was the last time you were in Japan, because I was there last year and yes there are tons of Western influences all over: Mickey Ds, KFC, american clothing, etc... But to say the US "gutted" their culture is ridiculous hyperbole. They speak the same language, eat the same types of traditional food, pray at their same amazing temples, celebrate hanami, have a strict social order, etc... Yes things have changed, things change a lot around the world. But to say they were "gutted" is a bold face lie.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    Lots of text.
    Japan at the time was seen as a country of honor. Surprise attacks aren't terribly honorable which is why reports were probably ignored. Also this was in days of traditional warfare so the US was most likely seeing if Japan would declare war before doing anything
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  5. #85
    The Patient Mirdamor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    am i the only one who wonders howcome the three axis states Germany, Italy and Japan after the war became economic powerhouses while the US and Russia both went further down - okay Italy goes down too but still... I think its the no war thing they instituted after the war
    I think it was because they got hit in the face and everything was taken from them, especially Germany... If you cannot go down you have to go up.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Welcome to war.

    Besides, Japan was prepared to fight down to the last man, woman, and child. It's probable that more Japanese civilians would have died if we had *not* bombed them, to say nothing of the many millions of soldiers who would have died.

    Keep in mind that conservative estimates of a traditional invasion of Japan put the casualty rate of American soldiers between 1.7 and 4 million, with 400,000-800,000 fatalities. Conservatively, there would have been 5-10 million Japanese fatalities. That says nothing of the fact that the traditional invasion of Japan would have involved destroying far more cities than we destroyed with the two bombs we dropped.

    The reason those two cities in particular were chosen have already been explained; suffice to say, they were not strictly civilian targets. Yes, we hoped to force Japan to surrender; doing so saved literally millions of lives. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to feel bad about that decision. It sucks for the people that were there, but it is an unfortunate reality that was made necessary by the situation.
    Again not true. During the final days of the war, after German surrender Japan was on a brink of losing the war. They had no ammunition so many have been told to use kamikaze to deal as much as damage as they can. Also the war was never with Japan but the attack on Pearl Harbor was used as an excuse. USA wanted to enter war in Europe and they needed approval of congress and they never had it. So your government sacrificed 5000 young soldiers and entire fleet to gain votes.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

    In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

    This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

    * Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
    * Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
    * Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
    * Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
    * Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
    * Surrender of designated war criminals.

    Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader [1968], pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

    The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.
    ^^^ ain't that a kick in the head

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linaver View Post
    Soldiers fighting soldiers is not the same as civillians getting vaporised in a mushroom cloud with no warning or true purpose.
    Both were large cities with some military importance. Neither was irreplacable to the military. There were picked because the casualties would be devastating so they would stand a chance of scaring Japan into surrender.

    USA are assholes for dropping the bomb. They had their reasoning and rationalle that allowed them to carry through with it. It was a gray decision where thousands of families were killed. Nobody in the states thought about that, the whole population cheered it as another military victory. Oh well, history is written by the victors.
    May the innocent people that were hit by that bomb rest in peace.
    However, I am hoping that's the only time we have to use a Nuke... The only good thing that comes out of it is the fact that other countries know we're not afraid to use it... Other than that this could have been handled in a much better way. Japan thought they couldn't be defeated and we over did it by a long shot. It's getting scary who knows what else they have I'm sure there are things we have no idea about that are much worse than Nukes. I find the topic interesting though.

    Using guns is one thing but bringing nukes is another ballpark... Any country can be defeated even the US and I wish people weren't so cocky about our countries military because it could easily hit us in the ass. Is there any country doing well these days though? Seems like I hear on the news everyday they're all going to shit... U.S being one of the first of course. Makes me wonder what the world will be like in a decade... So many possibilities...

    Maybe the bomb was a good decision maybe not... My history is a bit rusty.
    Last edited by Kulthor; 2011-11-28 at 01:08 AM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    No you cant. Just open some historical book or read an article.....

    27 January 1941, Dr. Ricardo Shreiber, the Peruvian envoy in Tokyo told Max Bishop, third secretary of the US embassy that he had just learned from his intelligence sources that there was a war plan involving a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. This information was sent to the State Department and Naval Intelligence and to Admiral Kimmel at Hawaii.

    10 August 1941, the top British agent, code named "Tricycle", Dusko Popov, told the FBI of the planned attack on Pearl Harbor and that it would be soon. The FBI told him that his information was "too precise, too complete to be believed. The questionnaire plus the other information you brought spell out in detail exactly where, when, how, and by whom we are to be attacked. If anything, it sounds like a trap." He also reported that a senior Japanese naval person had gone to Taranto to collect all secret data on the attack there and that it was of utmost importance to them. The info was given to Naval IQ.

    BTw Dusko Popov was an inspiration for James Bond...

    24 September 1941, the " bomb plot" message in J-19 code from Japan Naval Intelligence to Japan' s consul general in Honolulu requesting grid of exact locations of ships pinpointed for the benefit of bombardiers and torpedo pilots was deciphered. There was no reason to know the EXACT location of ships in harbor, unless to attack them - it was a dead giveaway. Chief of War Plans Turner and Chief of Naval Operations Stark repeatedly kept it and warnings based on it prepared by Safford and others from being passed to Hawaii. The chief of Naval Intelligence Captain Kirk was replaced because he insisted on warning HI. It was lack of information like this that lead to the exoneration of the Hawaii commanders and the blaming of Washington for unpreparedness for the attack by the Army Board and Navy Court. At no time did the Japanese ever ask for a similar bomb plot for any other American military installation. Why the Roosevelt administration allowed flagrant Japanese spying on PH has never been explained, but they blocked 2 Congressional investigations in the fall of 1941 to allow it to continue. The bomb plots were addressed to "Chief of 3rd Bureau, Naval General Staff", marked Secret Intelligence message, and given special serial numbers, so their significance couldn't be missed. There were about 95 ships in port. The text was:


    So what now? Read some books don't trust everything you read in a school book edited by the politicians.
    Actually American text books do say that they knew about the attacks, but do your books mention Britin directly bombing german civilians?

    No one was innocent in the war.

  10. #90
    Stood in the Fire Elohel's Avatar
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    Slightly off-topic but it annoys me to no fucking end when someone complains about the decision to nuke by the US. If you think that was a messed up decision, you really ought to read some history of Japan's actions in China before and during WWII, you'll likely lose your sympathy.

  11. #91
    they wanted to destroy the factories

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    this is a purely historical discussion and no US bashing thread.

    the question is why did US bomb these two cities and not somewhere else? the Japanese still had about 2 million infantry on the mainland so instead of nuking 2 cities why didn't the US nuke army bases or important military ports?
    Because as everyone already said, they wanted to intimidate Japan and basically destroy their confidence. Japan came into the war very confident because the last place that could be attacked was Japan, everyone else would have to go through Germany, Hungary, Austria and so on. This of course did not prevent them from being targeted but it made it more difficult when they were the ones providing supplies and the allies couldn't get them.

    Japan did everything wrong when attacking Pearl Harbor, they did not officially proclaimed war before the attack. Whatever people likes to believe it or not, wars have rules. You can stay neutral if you have the army to support it, or you can declare war/surrender right away, but you just don't straight out attack, you first officially declare war and then allow that person to either accept or surrender. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor before declaring war/letting the US surrender or declare true neutrality, which means they wouldn't be sending supplies to the UK anymore. Because Japan didn't do this, the Americans were not prepared for the attacked and there for their solders were basically wiped out without even a chance to fight back. It was a massacre that was truly and completely unfair for the US and even though Pearl Harbor was a military base civilians also lived there.

    America did it as revenge and to show Japan that their bitch move was not going to intimidate them or that it weakened their spirits. Do I agree with this? To be honest? Yes, Japan deserved it, do I believe bombing them twice was fair? No, not really but Japan was a stubborn mule and it still is, then they enjoy changing everything and acting like everyone else is the heartless monster or the ones that did something wrong to them, just take China as an example.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 01:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ghtybv View Post
    Actually American text books do say that they knew about the attacks, but do your books mention Britin directly bombing german civilians?

    No one was innocent in the war.
    or how the UK bombed France when France was at the edge of surrounding so the German army wouldn't get their supplies, that's always fun to read about.

    Everyone was a back stabbing bitch in WW2, that is why it is so popular.
    Last edited by toxicdinos; 2011-11-28 at 01:11 AM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Elohel View Post
    Slightly off-topic but it annoys me to no fucking end when someone complains about the decision to nuke by the US. If you think that was a messed up decision, you really ought to read some history of Japan's actions in China before and during WWII, you'll likely lose your sympathy.
    Two wrongs do not make a right.

  14. #94
    Well, the reason I heard once was that the japanese were fierce fighters and the war would be even more bloody if they didnt use the bombs to force a surrender. USA would need to enter japan and the losses would be massive for both sides. If thats the true reason I dont know but for sure no one wants to lose more troops if they can avoid it.
    English is not my main language so grammar errors might happen.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by RAWRF View Post
    You are showing nothing that is not already known. Fact is that no one ever thought Japan had the balls to come at us. Especially with everything going on elsewhere in the world. Even today these reports would have been scoffed at and that is even with the more advance technology making this plot far more feasible.

    You have proven nothing other than the fact that US officials were wrong in scoffing at these reports. But then again, hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?

    It has nothing to do with what country I am in as compared to what I know if I care to look. Thinking it does only proves your bias.
    Man when top advisors are telling that attack is immanent and nobody will listen then something is wrong. You know war ( not on a home soil ) is a boost to economy. US economy was in a downfall so the best option was the join war in Europe. US had imposed embargo on Japanese trade.

    They were not wrong!!! How can they be when they known that attack will happen, when top secret services informed your leaders about an impending attack? You dont have any doubt that they knew about the attack and did nothing?

    How can i be bias? Im looking at the big picture. US economy is falling apart, congress is against the war ( thats not eben on your soil ) + voters are against it. For a year you are receiving warnings that attack will happen and no one is doing anything to prevent it. Then Japan attacks destroying your entire fleet + killing 5000 soldiers. Then congress is for joining the war, voters are and you economy is getting better.

  16. #96
    I "love" how many people in this thread speak of countries as if they were only a bunch of generals and politicians, when the truth is totally different.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by logintime View Post
    Two wrongs do not make a right.
    But was goes around comes around. Karma is a bitch.

  18. #98
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAWRF View Post
    You are assuming I meant they were told to just go fly into things. Stop assuming. Once again, go do some research on the subject.
    then enlighten me, what exactly is your reason for saying there is no similarity between a society who encourages people to give their lives for the country and another to give their lives for the emperor... They believed it to be a dishonor to get captured, yet still some chose to let themselves be captured. Do you talk about the ground war with japan where a US soldier could walk up to a japanese soldier who had "surrendered" who then proceeded to gun them down before being taken down themselves? Well that could have something to do with the US often executing those who surrendered and had to be bribed by the officers with candy and ice cream no less to make them take prisoners...

  19. #99
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linaver View Post
    Soldiers fighting soldiers is not the same as civillians getting vaporised in a mushroom cloud with no warning or true purpose.
    When said like that it sure does sound criminal :/

    It probebly was. There was a purpose though, but i don't think that purpose justified the act.

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  20. #100
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toxicdinos View Post
    But was goes around comes around. Karma is a bitch.
    again, this indifference to the nuclear bombing of two cities is not frowned upon by many people - if i now mention that you had 9/11 coming and that: karma is a bitch - then suddenly its something different...

    i am ofcourse just being hypothetical
    Last edited by Cattaclysmic; 2011-11-28 at 01:19 AM.

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