why Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

[SynergySin]

o.0 WHAT?

Going to post this YET AGAIN. Maybe I will keep posting it untill it becomes evident that people actually read it:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html.

READ IT.

The Japanese had been attempting to negotiate peace since as early as JANUARY of 1945. They KEPT TRYING TO NEGOTIATE PEACE for the full 8 months between then and when the bombs were actually dropped. How exactly do you "fail to protect your citizens", when the people you are fighting with are actively IGNORING your efforts to end the war, just so they can throw away the lives of both sides military and civilians in a fit of childish pique because the agressor attacked first and without warning.

The bombing was not about "forceing peace" or "stopping the war", the Japanese had been trying for both. Hell, even the EMPEROR himself was actively commanding diplomats to end the damn thing by almost any means nessicary well before the americans blew two cities to hell.

The bombing was about the americans showing the japanese who is boss, on their own terms, pure and simple. It's was practically the equivilent of kicking a man while he is down on bended knee begging for forgiveness.

You do know that the reason the U.S. didn't accept the terms of surrender for the months prior was that most of Japan's high council refused to unconditional surrender? The emperor did not want to give up his power and they did not want their government reformed.

Japan got exactly what they asked for when the bombed Pearl Harbor. They robbed many American citizens of their lives, without a declaration of war, with no warning. After a grueling campaign to overtake naval bases in the Pacific Ocean, and the U.S. was within distance to attack mainland Japan, they still refused to surrender unconditionally. So the government decided to bomb the two cities as a scare/cripple tactic instead of losing upwards of 10 million lives in a land invasion.

[ZenX]

You do know that the reason the U.S. didn't accept the terms of surrender for the months prior was that most of Japan's high council refused to unconditional surrender? The emperor did not want to give up his power and they did not want their government reformed.

Japan got exactly what they asked for when the bombed Pearl Harbor. They robbed many American citizens of their lives, without a declaration of war, with no warning. After a grueling campaign to overtake naval bases in the Pacific Ocean, and the U.S. was within distance to attack mainland Japan, they still refused to surrender unconditionally. So the government decided to bomb the two cities as a scare/cripple tactic instead of losing upwards of 10 million lives in a land invasion.

In addition, Japan still refused to surrender even after U.S bombed Tokyo with Napalms, where the emperor and high council watched the city burn, but yet didn't accept unconditional surrender, especially Suzuki...

[markos82]

It's not okay for anyone.

We have discussed and shown the OP why these targets were chosen.

It would have been possible to cripple Japan without so much loss of life, how many slow painful deaths did we inflict via radiation?

OFC it is not but i replied to a post ( or a missed the right post ) that Japan deserved it since it attacked US first. What about Libya, Iraq, and many other countries that never did attacked US and yet have been destroyed by US? Japan did attacked but it responded to a embargo imposed by US. US knew attack to Pearl Harbor is going to happed and did nothing.

That wasnt the reason. Japan economy was destroyed, they wanted to surrender and yet US killed 200K+ people, thats just genocide to say so.

[champ3000]

I swear people have no sense of history. The USA was fire-bombing Japan. We had already killed thousands upon thousands of civilians. The bombs were dropped to prevent the deaths of millions.

Why is no one decrying the aggressors? Japan attacked the USA. Japan, essentially, dropped the bomb on itself. Japan not only attacked the USA, but was also slaughtering thousands of Chinese at the same time.

Next time, some of you should open a history book, and not moveon.org..

[Hiricine]

Sounds familiar. Just like they want to kill every society they don't understand or can't control to this day.

Next to Germany, the US has the most innocent blood on their hands, not bad for a country only a couple of centuries old.

If you look at the history, the Japaneese were pretty brutal to their Asian neighbors themselves. For reference, the bombings killed about 150k civilians total, the Japaneese totaled about 100k civilian deaths in China alone themselves. Couple that with the fact that this was an aggressive war with Japan as the instigator and you begin to see a clearer picture of why the decision was made.

The "land war" reason seems kind of irrelevant to me. If another nation comes and makes an attack on your soil, just about any retaliation you throw back at them is pretty justified.

[markos82]

Yeah, Europe has come a long way from 100 year long wars between us to actually working together. It did take about five hundred years though, so I wouldn't hold my breath about the Middle East, specially with the way both them and the US are behaving lately...

I find the fact that some people find the bombings justifiable in any way saddening, to be honest. And the fact that some can shrug them off very happily is sadder still. The whole of WWII was the result of a chain of events in which no one, NO ONE, did anything right. Or pretty much, anyway. The Japanese (who are by no means innocent lambs) responded to the economical blockade with force, which was uncalled for and a huge mistake. But escalating is never the answer, and doing something that not only harms civilians but generations to come is never going to be something I can condone.

Finally someone mentioned the real reason why Japan did attack. But you also didn't mentioned that US knew about the attack for months in advance and did nothing, mainly because they ( government ) wanted to make congress vote for entering the war in Europe.

[champ3000]

Someone please show me a nation in this world that doesn't have blood on their hands?

" Originally Posted by Lumocolor
Sounds familiar. Just like they want to kill every society they don't understand or can't control to this day.

Next to Germany, the US has the most innocent blood on their hands, not bad for a country only a couple of centuries old."

Ever heard of Russia? US is third at least.. although there isn;t a country on this earth that hasn't comitted atrocities..

[markos82]

Japan got exactly what they asked for when the bombed Pearl Harbor. They robbed many American citizens of their lives, without a declaration of war, with no warning. After a grueling campaign to overtake naval bases in the Pacific Ocean, and the U.S. was within distance to attack mainland Japan, they still refused to surrender unconditionally. So the government decided to bomb the two cities as a scare/cripple tactic instead of losing upwards of 10 million lives in a land invasion.

Man USA imposed embargo on Japanese trade by force Japan just attacked to gain upper hand since thay waged war and they needed supplies. Also US government knew about the attack and did nothing. Losing 10million people in land invasion? Are you kidding?!? During invasion of Normandy no were close to that number of people died. Also regarding attacks to US? Did Libya attacked US? Did Iraq? Did Serbia? Did Afghanistan? What about Korea? Vietnam? Then what about Panama, Gulf War, and many many more?

[Izin]

Maybe the wanted to send a message that they weren't afraid to harm innocent civilians(plus they were pissed about Pearl Harbor). /shrug

Prolly America have been doing terror bombings ever since.

[markos82]

If you look at the history, the Japaneese were pretty brutal to their Asian neighbors themselves. For reference, the bombings killed about 150k civilians total, the Japaneese totaled about 100k civilian deaths in China alone themselves. Couple that with the fact that this was an aggressive war with Japan as the instigator and you begin to see a clearer picture of why the decision was made.

The "land war" reason seems kind of irrelevant to me. If another nation comes and makes an attack on your soil, just about any retaliation you throw back at them is pretty justified.

150K+ killed in 2 attacks? what about US bombing of Tokyo and another 100K killed and 150K injured?

[Deleted]

Finally someone mentioned the real reason why Japan did attack. But you also didn't mentioned that US knew about the attack for months in advance and did nothing, mainly because they ( government ) wanted to make congress vote for entering the war in Europe.

No, and it's not the first time they instigate a war, either... the 1898 Cuban war against Spain comes to mind, in which they sacrificed a battleship, supposedly sunken by the Spanish ships... which were still made of wood, and had woefully out-of-date armament. Against a metal battleship. Likely.

And true, Cuba wanted independence. And Spain wanted to defend what had been Spanish for four centuries. So again, lots of people were wrong. But pretty much since then the US have had a hand in any international conflict they've felt like intervening in. Considering they pay the UN absolutely no mind one wonders why we bother with it anymore...

But this is perhaps a subject for another thread.

[Catta]

Someone please show me a nation in this world that doesn't have blood on their hands?



Ever heard of Russia? US is third at least.. although there isn;t a country on this earth that hasn't comitted atrocities..

Lichtenstein... New Zealand!? Greenland? Iceland?

or switzerland, they are small and neutral not like germany, ambitious and misunderstood

[LuckyBucky]

US had raids on Tokyo for 6 months and killed about 100K people + injured twice as much. So how can you compare, killing 200K+ people and releasing radiation that will kill who knows how many in upcoming years, in 2 attacks to 6 months of bombing?

Yes these being bombing missions with the sole intent of crippling the economy launched from offshore. What im talking about is a million american soldiers fighting in the streets against the Japanese. They wouldn't have had any sort of way to stop massive bombings and these bombings would now be nonstop and from only a few miles away. One plane could have run twenty missions a day with thousands of planes running these missions to allow the ground troops to push further in. I have no doubt a full ground assault would have been more costly than the casualties from the 2 Nukes at the time.
Sadly the radiation from those nukes heavily outweighs any war ever fought, but I don't think anyone was fully aware of what those nukes would do to the worlds cancer rates for thousands of years.

Bottom line is Japans slogan to their own people was we will fight till every last man, woman, and child. U.S. knew the leaders of japan were unreasonable so they had to appeal to the people. Nukes would tend to get citizens attention.

If your country was in a war whether you had already won or not if someone told you we can wipe out a million of their people and save a million of yours you push that button every time. Morality dictates its wrong for humanity. When it saves your brother/father/son its doesnt seem so wrong.

[champ3000]

Lichtenstein... New Zealand!? Greenland? Iceland?

or switzerland, they are small and neutral not like germany, ambitious and misunderstood

New Zealand subjugated their native people.. I'm sure many were killed unjustly.. thats all i got.. but the majority of nations have committed atrocities..

[Kathranis]

I'm not saying it was right or it was wrong, but they did what they thought would be necessary to force Japan into surrender and end the war. The Japanese had been brainwashed by the empire that all of their enemies were sub-human filth and that they had to fight to the death, to the extent that their pilots were willingly flying suicide missions. Keep in mind that seppuku was still considered honorable for the Japanese at the time.

In order to prevent the deaths of countless Allied soldiers fighting in mainland Japan, they took the harsh decision to bomb them. And they had to do it twice before Japan surrendered.

Read about Iwojima to get an idea of how dug-in the Japanese soldiers were.

[markos82]

Yes these being bombing missions with the sole intent of crippling the economy launched from offshore. What im talking about is a million american soldiers fighting in the streets against the Japanese. They wouldn't have had any sort of way to stop massive bombings and these bombings would now be nonstop and from only a few miles away. One plane could have run twenty missions a day with thousands of planes running these missions to allow the ground troops to push further in. I have no doubt a full ground assault would have been more costly than the casualties from the 2 Nukes at the time.
Sadly the radiation from those nukes heavily outweighs any war ever fought, but I don't think anyone was fully aware of what those nukes would do to the worlds cancer rates for thousands of years.

Bottom line is Japans slogan to their own people was we will fight till every last man, woman, and child. U.S. knew the leaders of japan were unreasonable so they had to appeal to the people. Nukes would tend to get citizens attention.

If your country was in a war whether you had already won or not if someone told you we can wipe out a million of their people and save a million of yours you push that button every time. Morality dictates its wrong for humanity. When it saves your brother/father/son its doesnt seem so wrong.

In a urban combat you simply cant introduce large number of ppl and you dont fight to liberate/conquer miles, you fight for meters at a time. Also Japan didn't had enough soldiers to wage war against fully rested and equipped soldiers with backup from sea and air. Those would have been a short fight considering Japan has been bombarded during last six months every single day.

That is a slogan for every country, i dont understand whats wrong with that? Will you protect people you love/care about if someone invaded your country? JApan leaders ( emperor ) wanted to sign peace so....

Not in this was. There was no need to invade Japan since they lost the war so sending 1mill of soldiers would be a waste of resources and time. How many soldiers/planes/ships/tanks have been used in a battle for Normandy probably one of the most important battles during WW2?

[Gsara]

appearently noone objects to this, but if i were to point out that the US had Pearl Habor coming stemmed from the US basically forced Japan to either trade with them or be killed then all hell breaks loose

Not quit, the reasons behind the attack on Pearl Harbor was to take out the Pacific naval capability of the US. Japan did this so the US couldn't intercede with Japan's bombing of overseas territories of the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, and the United States and the sinking of trade ships to China. They also knew it was only a matter of time before the US got involved because the US had been building up their naval fleet since 1939-40 to directly counter the invasions of Japanese forces in the Asian Pacific region. So they hit Pearl Harbor as hard as they could to take out everything that was possible.

The Asian Pacific region had actually been in a war frame since the mid '30s, except no one could stand up against the Japanese, so really it was just them taking territory and killing many many mnay thousands of people to do it.

What alot of people dont know, is that the Japanese and the US had anticipated war since the '20s, relations between the two countries was sketchy at best. The US cut off imports, except for oil, because of the of the actions of Japan since around '37. They were in the process of locking down imports to China and had also been killing civilians by the the thousands in parts of the Asian pacific region, to gain more territory for military expansion. The German's actually made it easier for Japan to go ahead with alot of their plans for the region. This is also one of the reasons the US didnt directly get involved in WW2, they knew Japan was using the German war to expand in the Pacific region. If Japan hadn't of hit Pearl Harbor, we still would have eventually went to war with at least Japan but it would have been a much harder time for the US.

Also of note...
The Japanese, even after the firebombings and the first nuke, still had no plans of surrender. They had already taken huge chunks of territory on the mainland from China and other Asian countries which were to be for an invasion of Russia which failed. The civilians killed in the Asian pacific region by the hands of the Japanese numbered in the millions, they didnt take prisoners except for higher ranking officials. The only way Japan would accept surrender was if they got to keep all of their holdings they took on the mainland. Then after talks died out we bombed them again.
Japan was never willing to surrender except on their terms, until we used the second nuke.

[Kathranis]

Markos: Japan refused unconditional surrender.

There was no way their military leaders could be allowed to remain in power with no reforms. They were as bad as the nazis, if not worse. And their conditions for surrender would be to keep their military and the territories they'd captured.

[Maharishi]

Any more derailing posts/nation bashing will be infracted. Post respectfully.

[champ3000]

Markos: Japan refused unconditional surrender.

There was no way their military leaders could be allowed to remain in power with no reforms. They were as bad as the nazis, if not worse. And their conditions for surrender would be to keep their military and the territories they'd captured.

ignoring the facts is easier