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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianthe View Post
    On the bright side losing some of the too many spells we already have could prove to make priests easier to balance against other classes. Truth be told, you still only use a limited number of your spells in either spec so for example changing PoH with Holy Nova for disc wouldn't do more than replace one spell with another with probably some added functionality.
    From the more "positioning" focused model they are trying to implement I honestly doubt they will make HN target-able in any way as it seems to me that they really want you to "position yourself for healing" - see the healing star talent as well or the potential monk heals like roll and so on.

    As for the so called "meaningful" talent system - no offense but when is the last time you actually had to make a "meaningful" choice in these trees? The new trees at least look like they can leave you swapping talents around a bit more depending on fights - which is more than I can say for the current talent trees...
    Dude, homogenization is bad. They already homogenized the shit out of the healing classes already. As it is, almost every healing class has the same spells with different graphics, and slightly different mechanics. They all have 3 single target heals (fast inefficient, slow efficient, and slow throughput). It's the same with the AoE healing spells. They're basically the same two spells, a spell that drops on the ground for people to stand in, and spamable AoE spell.

    I'm sorry, but I have every single healing spell bound, and actively use them all except holy nova and renew, and even then I still use them enough to keep them bound. I dunno, maybe I'm just one of the few priests who aren't lazy. The large spell selection is why I keep coming back to my priest to heal. Let's face it, priests have always been the -THE BEST- healing class because of our utility and niche spells. And rightly so because we are the only class that has two healing trees.

    I won't mind if HN is going to replace PoH, so long as it gets a MASSIVE BUFF. They need to drop the damage component, massively increase the healing and range to atleast 30 yards. Ony of my favorite things about disc used to be its increadible mobility, and a buffed HN would bring that back.

    I'd gladly give up PoH if they gave us an AoE shield-only spell though. Make it a cast time spell that puts a medium shield (no heal) that affects x players. It would greatly

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Botanica View Post
    Heal going Holy only, Disc getting Spirit Shell
    Spirit Shell looks really excellent given its "heal 80% later if unpopped" mechanics
    That is almost exactly what I thought Spirit Shell should work like when I first heard about it, but I exspct them to remove the "if unpopped" part, otherwise it won't work out. A critter could make your shield useless otherwise (some of them do bite for 1 point of damage instread of running away!), let alone the last tick of a dot or something similar. It should be x% of the remaining value.
    Maybe it should even proc when dispelled? Like lifebloom? It would still loose part of its effectiveness (as long as x% is less than 100%) and any ingrease of the healthpool would be lost as well.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Frazzle.d View Post
    Binding Heal is currently Holy only.

    Stuff everything else, this alone is one of the reasons anyone should be worried. One of the best utlity heals in the game being limited to one spec in an effort to what? Get more people to PvP as Holy? I never did like holy because I dislike the idea of a talent that sees you dying first before it activates being made a predominant feature. You're not a very good pvp healer if that's the main plus!
    Since when is Spirit of Redemption a predominant feature of playing holy? A lot of priests don't even take that talent. It's not the main feature of holy pvp either, just more of a fun 'F U' to the other team when you get killed.

    Also, did anyone notice the lack of discussion about Binding Heal in the new update, compared with Renew,etc? I don't think they are decided on this spell yet.

  4. #44
    Holy Nova for Disc im Happy, hope they keep the damage part and adjust the healing part a bit.
    If it gives insta bubbles (DA) and increase range to 15y u got ur self a healing Circle type of skill but.

    Spirit Shell sounds yummy, would be to good to be true if the fully absorb part works with rapture

    PoH is a nice skill but its limited to 5 targets, with Holy Nova (if healing numbers gets adjusted) u might be healing more than PoH did for us Disc. But it depends how blizz going to change Holy Nova.

    No renew, well not going to miss it as disc.
    Binding Heal should be an mistake to not give this to Disc and Shadow, its a very very good spell.
    If BH does get removed for disc shadow, than im will be missing it very much so.

    BH is awesome on Hagara, i just tank a beam (ice lances) and BH one other person in the beam.
    No Overhealing, effective and fast.

    But nobody can really say what will be happening yet, maybe in 3 to 4 months there will be concrete changes thats less subjective to change than the very early stage it is in now.

    Sig made by Resentful

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by tyry View Post
    Since when is Spirit of Redemption a predominant feature of playing holy? A lot of priests don't even take that talent. It's not the main feature of holy pvp either, just more of a fun 'F U' to the other team when you get killed.

    Also, did anyone notice the lack of discussion about Binding Heal in the new update, compared with Renew,etc? I don't think they are decided on this spell yet.
    regardless if you have taken it over the years it has been a staple talent (as in its been there for a long time now) in the holy tree.

    i agree with kel. they need to just bake bind heal and flash heal into one......obviously a talent would tell you when the bind heal would go off
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    I hear people say bring War back to World of Warcraft, well how about bringing World back to World of Warcraft

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by PlatedPriest View Post

    i agree with kel. they need to just bake bind heal and flash heal into one......obviously a talent would tell you when the bind heal would go off
    That's Danner. I, for one, feel they should continue being seperate spells, because they serve different purposes.

    Quit putting words in my mouth on my birthday! #OfficiallyOld
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Except Spirit Shell won't replace Greater Heal.
    Maybe. Maybe not. If I am to take one globally agreed-on feedback from the Cata healing experiment, it was that Heal was worthless.
    In 4.0, it didn't heal enough to keep a tank up in heroics. In 4.3 it does, but only assuming your tank is overgearing the content and the boss is doing trivial damage. Which by design means that the healer is not challenged, and is thus bored. So Blizzard try to avoid that as much as possible. Frankly, Heal don't have any place in heroics as a result. The "I'm on standby mode" heal just isn't giving anyone a feeling of being awesome. It's giving the feeling of being throttled. Sometimes, that's okay. But not all the time. Not as a core design idea.

    Heal never had any use in raid, as it was never healing for enough. And it never was "efficient". In fact, it downright sucked. We cast it out of desperation when forced up into a corner, and loathed ourselves for having to do so. Heal failed; being weak, expensive and boring. No matter how you twist it, "holding back" isn't fun! Cata 3-heal model healing failed for forcing us to use Heal as a result. I hear Heal was pretty good during the beta, but it certainly wasn't worth casting on live servers. I think paladins were the only healer that actually got some mileage out of their Heal equivalent. And again, they didn't exactly have fun doing so.

    For the next expansion, this really will have to change if you ask me. I don't know how, but spending tons of design time on repeating the same disaster in MoP seems like a mistake that Blizzard just shouldn't do. If I were in charge, I would basically kill off Heal completely. I'd replace it with Renew for Holy and Spirit Shell for Disc. Make both heals heal for a decent amount, but with situational flaws where they just dont work out. Renew is good for healing up damage, but wont' do so fast. Spirit shell is good for preempting moderate damage, but won't actually do any healing unless it bursts 8 seconds later. There are clear situations where you want to pull out the big guns of Greater Heal. Or in Disc's position, Penance, PWShield, and then GHeal.

    Yeah, maybe I am jumping logic here. Maybe Heal is the new Lightwell, and they will make it worth using after six or seven more expansion packs.


    There was a 0-cooldown Circle of Healing which worked. It had group limitations. 2.3 and 2.4's Circle of Healing were awesome.
    It was actually. I remember it fondly. Took a while before it turned any good, but... yeah. Good times.
    But you have to admit that party-based mechanics are pretty stupid. This especially goes in a world where you have looking-for-raid.

    At the beginning of Cataclysm, Holy Concentration was 20% Spirit Regen and Rapture was 5% maximum mana if I recall correctly. The only thing Rapture had going for it was it scaled with a stat you wanted to stack, unlike Holy Concentration.
    I actually have the old regen calculator lying around.
    http://www.pvv.org/~andreasd/regencalc/
    It's 4.0.6 numbers, and thus more in the february 2011 stage than in the december 2010 stage. But it's still early Cata as far as I am concerned.
    And yes, Rapture was making Holy Concentration look bad

    15% Intellect bonus is 15% spellpower + a tiny bit of crit. No mana pool. None. Period.
    I'm not really sure about that. Disc has always been weighted on the "having more mana" scale, while Holy was the "having more throughput" scale. Then they messed it up a bit in the firelands. I guess we'll see, but I wouldn't be surprised if Holy got stronger heals while Disc got more mana to play with. At least the hymns seem to suggest as much.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Maybe. Maybe not. If I am to take one globally agreed-on feedback from the Cata healing experiment, it was that Heal was worthless.
    In 4.0, it didn't heal enough to keep a tank up in heroics. In 4.3 it does, but only assuming your tank is overgearing the content and the boss is doing trivial damage. Which by design means that the healer is not challenged, and is thus bored. So Blizzard try to avoid that as much as possible. Frankly, Heal don't have any place in heroics as a result. The "I'm on standby mode" heal just isn't giving anyone a feeling of being awesome. It's giving the feeling of being throttled. Sometimes, that's okay. But not all the time. Not as a core design idea.
    Actually the idea of Heal worked quite well. Come on Danner, you played a Priest in TBC, this was your Greater Heal rank 1-2. And in heroics, it shouldn't be a "standby" type of heal. What it should be is a "falling behind" heal. As long as you cast it, you fall behind on health, but you trade that falling behind by longevity. You cast it to slow down your mana pool a bit, until you need to switch to higher or faster output spells.

    At 4.0 for the Pre-Cata party, people were still in their wrath gear so they never bothered, but for those of us in TBC tank healing training, once Cataclysm dropped we were back in our comfort zone. We didn't cast just Heal to "keep a tank up". We cast Heal because it bought time until we needed that Greater Heal or to dump that mana on Flash. And unless it was 4 CCs on the same pull (hah, yeah right), that wasn't 15 casts later. That was two or three. We were cycling on demand, and using Heal to stretch the mana bar where we can. Just like TBC.

    No matter how you twist it, "holding back" isn't fun! Cata 3-heal model healing failed for forcing us to use Heal as a result. I hear Heal was pretty good during the beta, but it certainly wasn't worth casting on live servers. I think paladins were the only healer that actually got some mileage out of their Heal equivalent. And again, they didn't exactly have fun doing so.
    Then go find friends to play on Wrath Private servers? Because no offense, but throttling is a part of the healer model. Every healer does it to some extent. It's just the matter of finding the methods and the means to do so. And Heal worked its way through a part of my rotation from my first Blackrock Caverns and Throne of the Tides on Normal, and it stayed that way through heroic Grim Batol and Stonecore. You may have had different expectations for the spell, seeing as you had different expectations for the class and subsequently had a lot of difficulty with the spec that had nothing to do with any of its recent troubles that were fixed.

    But Heal worked fine.

    For the next expansion, this really will have to change if you ask me. I don't know how, but spending tons of design time on repeating the same disaster in MoP seems like a mistake that Blizzard just shouldn't do. If I were in charge, I would basically kill off Heal completely. I'd replace it with Renew for Holy and Spirit Shell for Disc. Make both heals heal for a decent amount, but with situational flaws where they just dont work out. Renew is good for healing up damage, but wont' do so fast. Spirit shell is good for preempting moderate damage, but won't actually do any healing unless it bursts 8 seconds later. There are clear situations where you want to pull out the big guns of Greater Heal. Or in Disc's position, Penance, PWShield, and then GHeal.
    So you'd basically get rid of low cost low yield heals, so we can go back to Wrath. Got it. Sorry Danner, but it's making me want to throw up here.

    But you have to admit that party-based mechanics are pretty stupid. This especially goes in a world where you have looking-for-raid.
    The mechanics in LFR aren't meant to be balanced around. They're meant to stop world wide nerfs of normals four weeks into them for those groups that are just barely struggling on Deathwing to not have pugs come in and "I NEVER KILLED HIM GIEF ACHEEV + GEAR PLZ BLZ MAKE FITE EZ SO I CAN KK?"


    I actually have the old regen calculator lying around.
    http://www.pvv.org/~andreasd/regencalc/
    It's 4.0.6 numbers, and thus more in the february 2011 stage than in the december 2010 stage. But it's still early Cata as far as I am concerned.
    And yes, Rapture was making Holy Concentration look bad
    Ah, but in 4.0.6, Rapture was buffed as well as Holy Concentration, because 4.0.6 came with the increased shield cost.


    I'm not really sure about that. Disc has always been weighted on the "having more mana" scale, while Holy was the "having more throughput" scale. Then they messed it up a bit in the firelands. I guess we'll see, but I wouldn't be surprised if Holy got stronger heals while Disc got more mana to play with. At least the hymns seem to suggest as much.
    Discipline was weighted on the +max mana from the beginning... when it was a nothing spec, then again when it was a PvP spec and couldn't reach clearcasting. Since Discipline's been a legitimate PvE healer, that's not always true Danner. They've had more ways to exploit mana in an expansion that had mana not caring at all, but you can't really go with that being "always".
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Actually the idea of Heal worked quite well. Come on Danner, you played a Priest in TBC, this was your Greater Heal rank 1-2. And in heroics, it shouldn't be a "standby" type of heal. What it should be is a "falling behind" heal. As long as you cast it, you fall behind on health, but you trade that falling behind by longevity. You cast it to slow down your mana pool a bit, until you need to switch to higher or faster output spells.
    It's a noble idea in principle. But that's not how it worked in Cata. Since you have started reminding me about the horrors of pre-4.0.6, I distinctrly remember running horribly OOM casting Heal only, and the stories of priests getting kicked with the reason "Your class is oom". And my will to heal was breaking down since I couldn't even keep a tank alive if I went all out, lest be reduced to Heal. After they buffer HolyConc and all healing spells in 4.0.1, there was two months where healing was reduced to a one button spamming game.

    At which point I really have to wonder if it was a good idea. There we were, the most flexible healer in the game, with an awesome toolbox. And if you used any other heal than Heal, you were not only doing it wrong, you were the direct cause of a wipe 3 minutes later. Also; GHeal rank 1/2 was pretty useless even back in TBC. We used GHeal rank 3/4 you know

    Could we get to that noble idea? Maybe.

    But I would honestly much prefer if not every fight was a ridiculous strain for mana for the first two months. A "control skill check" ever now and then is perfectly fine and even quite fun. But for two months straight, no thanks. I honestly think the holypriest mana situation in 359 gear would have been a good entry level. It's was easy to run oom, and you definitively had to hold back, and spamming flash heal was far out - but you could actually use your toolbox. Problem is... in that situation, Heal just don't have a place. It was GHeal or nothing.

    Then go find friends to play on Wrath Private servers? Because no offense, but throttling is a part of the healer model.
    Hey now.
    Throttling is definitively a part of the healer model. And despite my constant wailing about running perpetually oom, I prefer having the manabar limit. I think the manabar limit add something to the game, and a dimension that I at least in TBC found very fun to control. Because I could control it. Part of that control included going for a GHeal rank 4 when things weren't burning. A large part of that control included abusing clearcasting, cancelcasting, FSR dancing and maximizing stuff like the Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon. I had a blast with this, and as I mastered more of these techniques, I also became a better healer.

    But my tools since then have been removed one by one. FSR dancing is gone, and with it a large part of what allowed Holypriests to be so damned good. We could go all out, and cover it later by some creative dancing. Downscaling went away, and was replaced with Heal, a spell so worthless that it's not worth using. My blue dragon was understandably nerfed to oblivion, and clearcasting was taken away. What remains today is cancelcasting Greater Heal. That is the only control a holypriest has over his own manabar.

    I don't mind being throttled by mana. I did end up with infinite mana in TBC at some point, where CoH spam was something I could do forever. And suddenly the game lost a lot of its charm. I went from being a healer that had to improvise, into a healer that was spamming one button mindlessly. But I want things to be equal between healers, and I want to have enough mana to reasonably do my job - with a little "slack" just for safety.

    I just don't think Heal worked fine.

    Ah, but in 4.0.6, Rapture was buffed as well as Holy Concentration, because 4.0.6 came with the increased shield cost.


    Discipline was weighted on the +max mana from the beginning... when it was a nothing spec, then again when it was a PvP spec and couldn't reach clearcasting. Since Discipline's been a legitimate PvE healer, that's not always true Danner. They've had more ways to exploit mana in an expansion that had mana not caring at all, but you can't really go with that being "always".
    And right you are!
    My mind is a bit fuzzy about those dark ages. I was mostly depressed about not being able to either quest or do PUG heroics with my toon
    But you are quite correct that the mana situation was awful for disc priests back in 4.0.0. As it was for holy priests. The major difference was that Holy had a reasonably strong Flash heal able to keep a tank alive through trash, while a disc priest did not. Both specs failed hard on heroic bosses though. Unless you were running with some really good DPSers
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Heal never had any use in raid, as it was never healing for enough. And it never was "efficient". In fact, it downright sucked. We cast it out of desperation when forced up into a corner, and loathed ourselves for having to do so. Heal failed; being weak, expensive and boring. No matter how you twist it, "holding back" isn't fun! Cata 3-heal model healing failed for forcing us to use Heal as a result. I hear Heal was pretty good during the beta, but it certainly wasn't worth casting on live servers. I think paladins were the only healer that actually got some mileage out of their Heal equivalent. And again, they didn't exactly have fun doing so.
    Although I agree with you to some extent, you have to account for the HW:Serenity fix.

    Madness is probably the best example for every possible argument for/against our mechanics, because it's 14 minutes long and makes us cope with all kinds of damage patterns. So I'm using it as an example.

    On madness this week, I experimented with staying in chakra:serenity for the Corruption portion of each assault. Mind you I play in 25, but I have no good way of dealing with the corrupted tentacle in chakra:sanc. I cast Heal 53 times, and it had a 30% crit rate (pretty sure I could get this higher but I was experimenting with who I should use HW:Serenity on). Its overheal was horrendously bad, probably thanks to bad timing on my part. All this time spent in ch:serenity and my total overheal was actually way lower than last week, plus my total HPS was higher (probably thanks to lower overall overheal).

    You have to remember that each cast of Heal potentially brings along with it Inspiration AND 12 free seconds of renew. When I started doing backup tankheals Impale became much easier to deal with. Also, if you can keep a renew rolling for a minute and a half, add all that free healing to your Heal effic, and you begin to see why Blizz thought it was necessary to make Heal less mana efficient than Gheal. The other thing to keep in mind: HW:Serenity, CoH and Mending on cooldown, healspam in between with a renew rolling is about 17k hps, and it's mana positive by a longshot. Can't turn your nose up at that.

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