New talent calculator: Disc is losing Divine Hymn, PoH and DA in 5.0?

[nobodysbaby]

I think it is a terrible thing to say Priests (especially Disc??) have too many AoE spells. They aren't spamming 2-3 spells like most other classes, but 4-5-6 (Holy the higher nr's), wich feels good!

Holy Nova.. Well, they will have to completly remake this not to be annoying as hell. I remember Twins in ToC, I think you do to.

It is too early to say about these changes, because we don't know what Disc will get instead of PoH, Renew, BH etc. Holy Nova, well.. let's see.

It is already a big difference playing Disc & Holy, they have completly different niches already. It is good they want to make them even more different; Disc - more absorb spells, Holy - pure healer, as they already are.

I think they should focus more on making PoH not group dependant, but I have been thinking of just HOW, and had several discussions on forums over the years, but no good solution. I am frankly quite happy we did not get Paladins Holy Radiance, wich is the most boring and brainless spell in game atm:P If Holy got the choice to arrange groups on their UI as they wish in raids, I would be happy *keeps dreaming*

[Tyni]

I trust both Discipline and Holy specs will have enough spells to do the job, and I welcome anything that makes sure switching specs feels like a true change (instead of Holy : spam PoH with some CoH, Disc : spam PoH with some PW:S, as seen in a few guides).

However I'm surprised so much core spells become Disc/Holy exclusive. What has a Shadow priest today ? Divine Hymn, 4 Heals, 2 Prayers, PW: Shield, Renovation. All are weak, but they may do the job for as long as it takes to battle rez a dead healer. What's the status of Hybrid Int-using DPSers (Shadow, Balance, Elem) in MoP ?

[nobodysbaby]

"Holy : spam PoH with some CoH"

If a priest plays like this, it is quite bad. PoM is one of my absolute favourite spell. BH, FH+GH gets used aswell, both as Disc and Holy. Occasional Renews are in place, especially on the move.

No, I don't think Disc/Holy are a lot alike today. Especially the "thinking" is different by miles.

Sure, it might not hurt if they make them even more different, as long as they know what they are doing to gameplay. The words "have too many AoE spells" just makes me cringe.

[Danner]

Renew going Holy only
I have no problems with this change. It's more of a fluff spell for disc anyway. Losing it is really only clearing up the toolbox. That said, as a Holypriest I'm not really super-excited. Renew isn't really that awesome except in cornercase situations. The day Renew actually becomes a good spell, Druids are going to have a really good reason to complain. So it won't really happen.

Heal going Holy only, Disc getting Spirit Shell
Another good change. Spirit Shell looks really excellent given its "heal 80% later if unpopped" mechanics, and with mastery it will be pretty powerful for Disc. I think most Disc priests are eager to see this spell in action. On the other hand, Holy probably won't be very excited about continuing the relationship with Heal. It's got absolutely no redeeming qualities in its current form, beyond as a band-aid for a major spec issue.

Prayer of Healing going Holy only, Disc getting Holy Nova
This is going to be a hot topic for months.

On one end, I am kinda happy for this change. It means that Holy finally have an identity and reason for existing. Where Disc gets powerful instant absorbs as a specc-selling feature, Holy get Prayer of Healing. That's a though choice, which is going to weight heavily into spec selection in MoP. After "losing" Serendipity and Body & Soul to talents, I was honestly starting to wonder what was left of Holy's identity that was actually any good (No, Lightwell/Improved Death don't count, and Chakra - which should be it - is just another static buff to be balanced against). The things that were remaining as good stuff in the Holy spec, was also mimiced in the Disc spec (Guardian Spirit vs Pain Supression, Serenity/Chastise vs Penance). This is now answered.

On the other end, I feel this change is really crippling the Disc priest spec. Numbers will need to be tweaked, and easy enough to tweak. But I think Blizzard are setting themselves up for a major headache here. Holy Nova can't have the small 10yd range as it have today, or you basically end up with the 4.1/4.2 paladin AoE heal issues. Holy Nova can't be targettable, or you end up with the no-cooldown Circle of Healing issues. You can increase its range, but it's a fine line between useless and OP there. I am honestly very skeptical of this change as a result.

Holy will have no qualms about losing Holy Nova. Bye bye, won't be notably missed.

Atonement becoming a glyph
Totally approve. I may be saying that just because I am a holypriest. Disc priests out there can still rest easy that Holy won't have Evangelism, so it will not be anything a holypriest will use except when levelling. But I really approve of that usecase.

Binding Heal going Holy only?
At lvl 48, Holy gets this spell. At lvl 48, disc gets nothing. That alone is a warning sign in my book that something is amiss. But _if_ disc is losing Binding Heal, that is a heavy blow, probably more so than losing PoH. Especially arena priests will feel this badly. I can't say I approve of this. Binding Heal is a vital part of both specs. If anything, probably more so for a disc priest than a holypriest.

Also: Merge BHeal and FHeal already.

Mind Blast / Mind Spike going Shadow only
Holy will have Smite only.
Disc will have Smite and Penance.

It's gonna be a looooong levelling process, that's for sure.

On the subject of hymns
Divine Hymn going Holy only is actually fine by me. It's the holy cooldown, and countered by Disc barrier.
Though I think Disc will somewhat miss the hymn just because it has been used for a long time.

Hymn of Hope going Disc only is just weird. Disc don't need the mana due to rapture, but holy desperately do.
If Shadowfiend is the only holy regen util in MoP, there will be big trouble.

[Tyni]

Mind Blast / Mind Spike going Shadow only
Holy will have Smite only.
Disc will have Smite and Penance.

I don't understand this point. Today Holy has Smite/Holy Fire/Chastise, Disc has Smite/Holy Fire/Penance, nothing changes here.

[Acidz]

Let us keep Prayer of Healing please, and stick Holy priests up with Holy Nova... would make much more sense. (Y)

[Deleted]

I understand that blizzard are trying to make the priest class into 2 distinctive healing spec,s and in a raiding environment i think this would be an excellent idea. However doing dungeons as a priest will become a hell of a lot more difficult as most contain both aoe and single target damaging effects, which priests will then struggle to heal through (especially disc with no aoe heals), where as the other healing classes appear to be fairly balanced. I think this can only work if the class (disc in particular) get new spec specific spells or buffs to compensate for the apparent lack of balance.

[Purple]

I still don't like that they're making you choose between your quick Trash rotation and your Execute Phase.

[Danner]

I don't understand this point. Today Holy has Smite/Holy Fire/Chastise, Disc has Smite/Holy Fire/Penance, nothing changes here.

Can I blame a major brain fart on this one?
I completely forgot both Holy Fire and Chastise.
Not a good day.

[Mazi]

Let us keep Prayer of Healing please, and stick Holy priests up with Holy Nova... would make much more sense. (Y)

I don't think that makes sense... Holy has insta cast CoH so we need a hard cast spell.

[Kelesti]

• Renew going Holy only
  
• Heal going Holy only, Disc getting Spirit Shell

As it stands right now, Renew "for the most part" is only used by Discipline in PvP, with a couple exceptions of tank healing (when not powering back hardcore shields and greaters). Except it didn't scale with talents, or mastery, on the point of Discipline. You casted it because you had to, not because you felt doing so made you better (at least in my honest opinion). A loss for PvP, but it could be remedied by giving the spec something to stand on that isn't instant casts. Who knows?

But Danner, if Heal is "nothing but a band-aid" for a broken problem in the spec, wouldn't Spirit Shell be exactly the same? It's the same mana cost, and it's the same cast time, and the same output. Just because it's shiny doesn't make it better in the current paradigm (low yield low cost spells are useless in live) and it would never see use. Blizzard needs to play the mana game again, and actually balance content AROUND that, rather than around the healers they never got around to nerfing.

• Prayer of Healing going Holy only, Disc getting Holy Nova

This is going to be a hot topic for months.
I am honestly very skeptical of this change as a result.

Holy will have no qualms about losing Holy Nova. Bye bye, won't be notably missed.

I agree with you in that it's going to be a ragefest. However, working the auto-aegis into a damage+healing spell fits Discipline's toolkit a lot more than the stand and fire "ZOMG BIG NUMBERS" that Holy turrets around. Now it's a matter of making it functional. Range, numbers, smart targetting, and tie in to other abilities (Divine Aegis, stacking Evangelism and working off it, potentially Atonement) would make it a useful tool.

• Atonement becoming a glyph

Disc priests out there can still rest easy that Holy won't have Evangelism, so it will not be anything a holypriest will use except when levelling.

Danner, you're doing it again. Holy has to get Evangelism, because Archangel requires it. For a talent to be appealing to any spec (even a sub-poor choice for the current situation), it has to be usable. Archangel is not, because Evangelism isn't there. This can and will change, even if it's the form of a third (now second) set of Evangelism, that's triggered by Holy Words or something.

That said, they may make Atonement a Discipline spec-spell, or a talent in and of itself, and not a glyph. They only just said "maybe".

• On the subject of hymns

Divine Hymn going Holy only is actually fine by me. It's the holy cooldown, and countered by Disc barrier.
Though I think Disc will somewhat miss the hymn just because it has been used for a long time.

Hymn of Hope going Disc only is just weird. Disc don't need the mana due to rapture, but holy desperately do.
If Shadowfiend is the only holy regen util in MoP, there will be big trouble.

You're forgetting a few things on this last point. One, Divine Hymn's looking at 8 minutes in this iteration, which means "it's not done". Two, Balance and Feral have access to Tranquility at level 74. I agree super hymn is countered by Discipline's Barrier so Discipline may need it.

But with Intellect no longer giving Regen, Rapture won't have scaling returns of ridiculousness. In all seriousness, it could and most likely will fall under the same ideology that Paladins have with their judgement (shield breaking = +X% spirit regen for Y seconds). But as it stands live right now, Holy looks to be in a better place for mana than Discipline does.

And Hymn of Hope needs a fair bit of work before I'm ready to see it in either toolkit.

---------- Post added 2011-12-08 at 11:54 AM ----------

Let us keep Prayer of Healing please, and stick Holy priests up with Holy Nova... would make much more sense. (Y)

You kind of missed the part where they said they're changing the name.

The only reason it's still called Holy Nova from this point is because it's so we identify the mechanics of the spell until the framework's in place for anything else.

[Botanica]

Heal going Holy only, Disc getting Spirit Shell
Another good change. Spirit Shell looks really excellent given its "heal 80% later if unpopped" mechanics, and with mastery it will be pretty powerful for Disc. I think most Disc priests are eager to see this spell in action. On the other hand, Holy probably won't be very excited about continuing the relationship with Heal. It's got absolutely no redeeming qualities in its current form, beyond as a band-aid for a major spec issue.

Not sure if I like this change. When someone has lost a little health, heal is perfect. If we put a Spirit Shell on them, another healer is going to think they don't have a heal incoming, heal them, and when it pops, we overheal.

[PlatedPriest]

personally i like the fact that spirit shell will replace heal.


that is all.

[Deleted]

I am quite unhappy if I end up losing binding heal as disc. It's one of the spells i love/use the most. I also think it class defining, not spec-defining. Anyway.. Wait and see.

I am OK (not really, but I could get used to) losing PoH and Hymn, but please let me my BH. My precious... ^^

[Danner]

But Danner, if Heal is "nothing but a band-aid" for a broken problem in the spec, wouldn't Spirit Shell be exactly the same?

If done wrong, absolutely!
It is my hope that it will be equal to GHeal in throughput when you calculate in the mastery. Worth casting even in raids, ideally. So Spirit Shell won't really be replacing Heal. It will be replacing GHeal, unless the target is in need of actual healing. At which point your priority is still Penance, then Gheal.
We'll see how it plays out

I agree with you in that it's going to be a ragefest. However, working the auto-aegis into a damage+healing spell fits Discipline's toolkit a lot more than the stand and fire "ZOMG BIG NUMBERS" that Holy turrets around. Now it's a matter of making it functional. Range, numbers, smart targetting, and tie in to other abilities (Divine Aegis, stacking Evangelism and working off it, potentially Atonement) would make it a useful tool.

From a healing throughput perspective, I'm not worried. Numbers can and will be tweaked, and Holy Nova will get there.
I like the idea of Divine Aegis and Evangelism proccing from Holy Nova. That is a good idea. Do want, actually.
The problem resides in the mechanics. Range, targetting and smart abilities - they can all add to that mechanics, but they all carry issues.
At some point you are either going to end up with Healing Hands (which didn't exactly revolutionize paladins) or a no-cooldown Circle of Healing (which as we all remember got nerfed to hell).

Danner, you're doing it again. Holy has to get Evangelism, because Archangel requires it. For a talent to be appealing to any spec (even a sub-poor choice for the current situation), it has to be usable. Archangel is not, because Evangelism isn't there. This can and will change, even if it's the form of a third (now second) set of Evangelism, that's triggered by Holy Words or something.

I honestly believe that Archangel will be totally reworked. It may remain as a healing throughput cooldown, but as it stands, it's not really fitting into the tier at all. It's balanced against a mana conserve tool and a dps utility for healing, and at that point it's a choice between throughput or no thoughput. Not a good choice! More stuff will have to happen on this front. And I think it will.

So I'm not worried - that entire talent tier will see a lot more work before we hit 5.0. I totally agree with you that there is no way the talent won't be useful for Holy.

You're forgetting a few things on this last point. One, Divine Hymn's looking at 8 minutes in this iteration, which means "it's not done". Two, Balance and Feral have access to Tranquility at level 74. I agree super hymn is countered by Discipline's Barrier so Discipline may need it.

I kinda considered the 8 min duration a bug. No way is Holy losing it's 3 min (AWESOME!) cooldown. Not unless they decide to make all those raidwide cooldowns 8 min durations. That would include barrier, SLT, auramastery and tranq. And possibly Lightwell. Could happen, but I'm not betting money on it.

But with Intellect no longer giving Regen, Rapture won't have scaling returns of ridiculousness. In all seriousness, it could and most likely will fall under the same ideology that Paladins have with their judgement (shield breaking = +X% spirit regen for Y seconds). But as it stands live right now, Holy looks to be in a better place for mana than Discipline does.

Rapture was better than Holy Concentration even at the beginning of Cata. I realize they have nerfed it since. But numbers can be tweaked, so I guess it is not really fair to assume that Disc will be better at manaregen just based on Rapture alone.

But when you add the 15% spec INT/manapool bonus (still exists?), Inner Focus, Hymn of Hope, Cheaper spells (Penance!) and Rapture together, then I'm not quite sure I should bet against the chance of this happening

What I can agree on is that if Holy do get exclusive access to Prayer of Healing, Binding Heal and Renew, then that does leave something to be desired from the disc spec. Awesome shields is all fun and dandy, but it's not quite up to that package. I really hope they give disc Binding Heal at least. But fleshing out the flavor of the two healing specs is really going to be interesting to follow. I really want more brain dumps here!

And Hymn of Hope needs a fair bit of work before I'm ready to see it in either toolkit.

Agreed!

[Kelesti]

If done wrong, absolutely!
It is my hope that it will be equal to GHeal in throughput when you calculate in the mastery. Worth casting even in raids, ideally. So Spirit Shell won't really be replacing Heal. It will be replacing GHeal, unless the target is in need of actual healing. At which point your priority is still Penance, then Gheal.
We'll see how it plays out

Except it won't replace Greater Heal. It has the mana cost of Heal. It has the nerfed output of Heal, with the ability to scale with mastery as apposed to crit. Mastery will be scaled back so it won't be allowed to bloom so much of a god stat to ever let this replace Greater Heal on an output front, and the only reason it stands on an efficiency front is because we really don't care about overheal anyways. Yes, Train of Thought makes it "efficient", but the efficiency is truly lost when it's 30% overheal. Does a person cast Heal which wouldn't overheal in that situation on live, and could even get a use out of a strong crit? Nope. Why? Because mana doesn't matter.

The mana game needs to get toned down to let it work though. Nourish, Healing Wave, Holy Light, Heal, and now Spirit Shell. They all have to serve a purpose. Currently the purpose is "I'm bored, but don't want downtime", when in reality it should be "I'm keepign my output going a bit while conserving mana for when the real crap hits the fan".

or a no-cooldown Circle of Healing (which as we all remember got nerfed to hell).

There was a 0-cooldown Circle of Healing which worked. It had group limitations. 2.3 and 2.4's Circle of Healing were awesome.

I honestly believe that Archangel will be totally reworked. It may remain as a healing throughput cooldown, but as it stands, it's not really fitting into the tier at all. It's balanced against a mana conserve tool and a dps utility for healing, and at that point it's a choice between throughput or no thoughput. Not a good choice! More stuff will have to happen on this front. And I think it will.

Evangelism will be reworked more than Archangel will, that's where I'm placing my bets.

I kinda considered the 8 min duration a bug. No way is Holy losing it's 3 min (AWESOME!) cooldown. Not unless they decide to make all those raidwide cooldowns 8 min durations. That would include barrier, SLT, auramastery and tranq. And possibly Lightwell. Could happen, but I'm not betting money on it.

They all need to be gutted to either 15/30 minute cooldowns, or gutted in effectiveness to the previous Divine Hymn.

Rapture was better than Holy Concentration even at the beginning of Cata. I realize they have nerfed it since. But numbers can be tweaked, so I guess it is not really fair to assume that Disc will be better at manaregen just based on Rapture alone.

At the beginning of Cataclysm, Holy Concentration was 20% Spirit Regen and Rapture was 5% maximum mana if I recall correctly. The only thing Rapture had going for it was it scaled with a stat you wanted to stack, unlike Holy Concentration.

But when you add the 15% spec INT/manapool bonus (still exists?), Inner Focus, Hymn of Hope, Cheaper spells (Penance!) and Rapture together, then I'm not quite sure I should bet against the chance of this happening

15% Intellect bonus is 15% spellpower + a tiny bit of crit. No mana pool. None. Period. So you have Penance which is countered by Holy Word Serenity. Then you have Rapture which at the beginning of Mists will have exactly the same return as the end of Mists, versus Holy Concentration which will have strong enough to sustain, and scaling upwards with + spirit on our gear, meaning Holy gets more regen on each piece of gear, leading to a) regen capping sooner, b) higher stability in diving into throughput gear, with less of a sacrifice because they can keep enough regen on the other pieces.

We see the same with Discipline right now with Intellect scaling so high. This is just the reverse. Rapture has to change to follow the new "Spirit is the only way to increase your mana return" or Discipline will be left behind.

Period.

[Frazzle.d]

Binding Heal is currently Holy only.

Stuff everything else, this alone is one of the reasons anyone should be worried. One of the best utlity heals in the game being limited to one spec in an effort to what? Get more people to PvP as Holy? I never did like holy because I dislike the idea of a talent that sees you dying first before it activates being made a predominant feature. You're not a very good pvp healer if that's the main plus!

Losing wands, losing renew...

There's too much losing in this expansion to be perfectly honest.

[nobodysbaby]

Let's not have the attitude "Blizzard will come up with something, we will wait and see", gogo show them We probably all have a lot more knowledge about Priest healers than they have, and certainly what "feeling" we want playing it.

I have to sleep on it, then some Forum Feedback.

[Kelesti]

Let's not have the attitude "Blizzard will come up with something, we will wait and see", gogo show them We probably all have a lot more knowledge about Priest healers than they have, and certainly what "feeling" we want playing it.

I have to sleep on it, then some Forum Feedback.

Three things to bring to their attention:

One: IWIN cooldowns need to go die. In many fires. Burn them all with...something worse than fire! I don't care.

Two: Mana game needs to come back. Balance Rapture and Revitalize around Spirit, so Discipline doesn't need to be rebalanced every patch to "try" and keep equal to Holy (Improved Water Shield could be a +Spirit mechanic as well?)

Three: Evangelism. WAT

[PlatedPriest]

The mana game needs to get toned down to let it work though. Nourish, Healing Wave, Holy Light, Heal, and now Spirit Shell. They all have to serve a purpose. Currently the purpose is "I'm bored, but don't want downtime", when in reality it should be "I'm keepign my output going a bit while conserving mana for when the real crap hits the fan".

i feel like heal spell where made with 5mans at the start of cata in mind and they had no clue how it would transfer over to raids. it had a niche in 5man sometimes 10mans and none in 25....

at least that how i saw it.

granted i haven't raided since January of this year so i have no clue if people are using it nowadays