1. #2641
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    727
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjabb View Post
    Its just the Lance Armstrong debate all over again. Some say hey the guy was a great guy he helped raise all this money for cancer research which helped a lot of people, while others say hes an egotistical asshole that ruined some lives and betrayed millions of people. Different scale with Lebron, same premise.
    Unless I'm missing something, surely his major contributions to cancer research far outweigh whatever he did in what is largely just a sport? I mean, just saying from the perspective of societal contribution and achievement right? I guess I can see why people who are emotionally invested in cycling feel betrayed by the guy but didn't the last guy who ran off titles admit to using PEDs? Isn't the sport littered with PED users? Like, not considering his personality or whatever but surely from a point blank human scale, what he's done to benefit far outweighs his flaws? I'd imagine this is especially true for people who have had family or friends who have had cancer.

  2. #2642
    I am Murloc! Thallidomaniac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Honolulu, HI
    Posts
    5,825
    Quote Originally Posted by jreg View Post
    Unless I'm missing something, surely his major contributions to cancer research far outweigh whatever he did in what is largely just a sport? I mean, just saying from the perspective of societal contribution and achievement right? I guess I can see why people who are emotionally invested in cycling feel betrayed by the guy but didn't the last guy who ran off titles admit to using PEDs? Isn't the sport littered with PED users? Like, not considering his personality or whatever but surely from a point blank human scale, what he's done to benefit far outweighs his flaws? I'd imagine this is especially true for people who have had family or friends who have had cancer.
    I would have thought people would compare the LBJ Decision and Lance Armstrong to Joe Paterno just to demonize them more than they actually are. Granted, the Paterno situation is something completely different in that it did directly hurt people.

    And inbefore Livestrong is revealed to be a fraud.
    Last edited by Thallidomaniac; 2013-02-07 at 06:46 AM.

    Enstraynomic - League of Legends
    TheEnst - Starcraft II

  3. #2643
    I would just like to point this out: you can like a player, and still dislike them as a human being. I respect the hell out of LeBron James' game, but as a person, I dislike him. I respect the hell out of Kobe Bryant's game, but he's got some definite flaws. They're not mutually exclusive.

  4. #2644
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    727
    Quote Originally Posted by icedwarrior View Post
    I would just like to point this out: you can like a player, and still dislike them as a human being. I respect the hell out of LeBron James' game, but as a person, I dislike him. I respect the hell out of Kobe Bryant's game, but he's got some definite flaws. They're not mutually exclusive.
    I hear this all the time and I have to ask: have you met them personally? Everyone has flaws. Your shit stinks just as much as the next person. Wouldn't it bother you that someone decided that you're an asshole or wholly unlikable based on the worst experiences, moments and decisions of your life (magnified several thousand times by media) without ever meeting you in person? I think this in of itself is a character flaw though this is obviously only to a certain extent.

  5. #2645
    I am Murloc! Thallidomaniac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Honolulu, HI
    Posts
    5,825
    Quote Originally Posted by jreg View Post
    I hear this all the time and I have to ask: have you met them personally? Everyone has flaws. Your shit stinks just as much as the next person. Wouldn't it bother you that someone decided that you're an asshole or wholly unlikable based on the worst experiences, moments and decisions of your life (magnified several thousand times by media) without ever meeting you in person? I think this in of itself is a character flaw though this is obviously only to a certain extent.
    But some people's flaws are really distrubing and disgraceful to the point that trying to humanize them is just, wrong. People have said that Paterno and Sandusky are two of those people. Other possible candidates include terrorists, Madoff, and Hitler.

    Enstraynomic - League of Legends
    TheEnst - Starcraft II

  6. #2646
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    727
    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post
    But some people's flaws are really distrubing and disgraceful to the point that trying to humanize them is just, wrong. People have said that Paterno and Sandusky are two of those people. Other possible candidates include terrorists, Madoff, and Hitler.
    I think this in of itself is a character flaw though this is obviously only to a certain extent.
    Which is why I said this but I probably should've made it clearer.

    Plus, they aren't really comparable.

  7. #2647
    Quote Originally Posted by jreg View Post
    Unless I'm missing something, surely his major contributions to cancer research far outweigh whatever he did in what is largely just a sport? I mean, just saying from the perspective of societal contribution and achievement right? I guess I can see why people who are emotionally invested in cycling feel betrayed by the guy but didn't the last guy who ran off titles admit to using PEDs? Isn't the sport littered with PED users? Like, not considering his personality or whatever but surely from a point blank human scale, what he's done to benefit far outweighs his flaws? I'd imagine this is especially true for people who have had family or friends who have had cancer.
    Well what Lance did is pretty terrible. First ya theres the cheating in his sport to win. That in and of itself isnt that bad but then lets take into account how much money did he make off those cheating wins that he used for his own personal gain. Sure, he gave a good amount to cancer research and helped start a foundation but lets not pretend that the guy isnt now rich because of the money he made from cheating and from endorsements of people he tricked into believing that he was a hero. A lot of donations to his foundation may not have happened if they found out the guy was essentially a fraud this whole time, their money may still go to cancer research but to a different organization not Lances.

    But heres the big thing to me. Whenever people called out Lance for his cheating he literally ruined their life. He would countersue them in court for slander and would end taking away so much of their money and would then tarnish their reputation by spreading lies about them when he knew for a fact they were telling the truth. This to me shows a pathetic human being, that he's willing to ruin other people just to cover his own ass.

    Lebron obviously isnt nearly to the extent of Lance in terms of the good he did with The Decision nor the bad he did, Lance was far worse. What is compareable is whether or not people want to look and focus on the good he did or focus on the bad. In both situations I focus more on the bad because to me it takes a pretty selfcentered human being to do either and these guys are both multi-millionaires, so donating money while good isnt really that huge a chunk of change to them. So personally Im not like "well it went for a good cause so that wipes out the rest."

  8. #2648
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    727
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjabb View Post
    Well what Lance did is pretty terrible. First ya theres the cheating in his sport to win. That in and of itself isnt that bad but then lets take into account how much money did he make off those cheating wins that he used for his own personal gain. Sure, he gave a good amount to cancer research and helped start a foundation but lets not pretend that the guy isnt now rich because of the money he made from cheating and from endorsements of people he tricked into believing that he was a hero. A lot of donations to his foundation may not have happened if they found out the guy was essentially a fraud this whole time, their money may still go to cancer research but to a different organization not Lances.
    True but isn't it widely agreed that the sport is absolutely smothered by heavy PED usage? Surely everyone is doing the same with regards to making money from endorsements earned with that little bit of extra help? I'm not trying to justify the PED usage but everyone has got blood on their hands here no?

    But heres the big thing to me. Whenever people called out Lance for his cheating he literally ruined their life. He would countersue them in court for slander and would end taking away so much of their money and would then tarnish their reputation by spreading lies about them when he knew for a fact they were telling the truth. This to me shows a pathetic human being, that he's willing to ruin other people just to cover his own ass.
    I didn't really know about this. That's... damn.

    Lebron obviously isnt nearly to the extent of Lance in terms of the good he did with The Decision nor the bad he did, Lance was far worse. What is compareable is whether or not people want to look and focus on the good he did or focus on the bad. In both situations I focus more on the bad because to me it takes a pretty selfcentered human being to do either and these guys are both multi-millionaires, so donating money while good isnt really that huge a chunk of change to them. So personally Im not like "well it went for a good cause so that wipes out the rest."
    Certainly but it is still admirable nonetheless. At least in the case of LeBron, he actually tremendously cares about the girls and boys club in Akron - that's his old stomping grounds and between that and his pseudo-adoptive family, it's how he got by when his mum was traveling from house to house trying to figure out a way to feed her son.

    LeBron has said stupid things, done stupid things, and yea, he's shown hot flashes of arrogance. And he's human. As far as I know, he tries to be a good guy and at the very least, he doesn't go around counter-suing people into the ground for saying the truth.

  9. #2649
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    Oh btw I heard DRose is taking full contact sooooo let's see what happens. Bulls vs. Denver on national TV Thurs night would be a convenient come back.
    As much as I'd love it theres almost 0 chance this happens. Best case scenario was always after the All-Star break. Not sure what games those are. Id figure it will be in that time period, at least thats what I've been hearing locally.

    I know Conscript doesnt buy them but if D-Rose can play like his old self the Bulls are the biggest threat in the East to Miami. Id put New York #3. I just find it hard to believe that a team that is so 3 point shot oriented being able to beat Miami in a 7 game series. The Bulls I give them a chance, assuming theyre healthy. This includes Noah, Deng, Boozer, Hinrich, Hamilton, as well as Rose. Im unsure whether Noah will be back for All-Star game I really hope he is, I'd love to watch him playing with the other all-stars especially KG and Lebron since its well documented he doesnt like either of them lol

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 04:31 PM ----------

    Apparently Mirza Teletovic (its ok I never heard of him either) of the Brooklyn Nets airballed 3 shots in a row. The 1st 3 he took was off by a good 4-5 feet it looked like. I almost feel bad for the dude.

  10. #2650
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Jonesville, Michigan
    Posts
    10,443
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjabb View Post
    I know Conscript doesnt buy them but if D-Rose can play like his old self the Bulls are the biggest threat in the East to Miami.
    I definitely agree about this part though. I don't think New York can beat either of them, but I'd give them a better shot at beating Miami than them beating Chicago. Chicago will eat their faces on defense.

    Howard will be back tonight. Howard will be injured again tomorrow. Rushing back a labrum injury for the fourth time seems like a GREAT idea.

  11. #2651
    .....My phone has been texting me some players who are gonna be in the All Star contests and I was like ....?

    Turns out TNT is having their pregame show and announcing it I guess. And I missed it lol.. So annoying, they should let people know they were gonna do stuff like that. I always assume they're gonna show that fucking "The Mentalist" show before the games.

    Well. Time to miss the beginning hour of LAL vs. Boston watching this pregame show on "Start Over" from my Time Warner Cable...............

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 10:42 PM ----------

    I tuned in and out of Lakers game. It was quite painful to watch them get owned by boston lol.

  12. #2652
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Jonesville, Michigan
    Posts
    10,443
    Grats KG on 25,000 points. Grats Lakers on giving up 116 points to the offensively anemic Celtics.

  13. #2653
    Celtics 7-0 without Rondo. I would have bet serious money on any other outcome (KG traded, Pierce traded, C's losing between 3 and 7 games during that span) than that.

  14. #2654
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    727
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Celtics 7-0 without Rondo. I would have bet serious money on any other outcome (KG traded, Pierce traded, C's losing between 3 and 7 games during that span) than that.
    It kinda makes sense though. They played more like this style in their first few years with the big three since Rondo wasn't nearly as ball dominant. Rondo gets some big stats but it comes at the cost of ball movement beyond one pass, maybe two. I didn't really expect this much success though.

  15. #2655
    Quote Originally Posted by jreg View Post
    It kinda makes sense though. They played more like this style in their first few years with the big three since Rondo wasn't nearly as ball dominant. Rondo gets some big stats but it comes at the cost of ball movement beyond one pass, maybe two. I didn't really expect this much success though.
    Are you trying to say Rondo was holding the team back? Because no. Just no.

  16. #2656
    It's simply the Patrick Ewing effect about Rondo leaving.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 07:28 PM ----------

    WOOPS sorry Conscript. Your Penguin guy is out 4-6 weeks. And I was almost gonna pull for him to be RoY over Lillard if he kept doing well.

  17. #2657
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    727
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Are you trying to say Rondo was holding the team back? Because no. Just no.
    Nope, stop reading into what isn't there. I'm simply stating that some success should not be a surprise. This is how they played in their first few years as the big three. Rondo being ball dominant isn't bad, but anyone who isn't blind can see that it comes at the cost of team ball movement.

    EDIT: Well, this road trip is not going the way the Lakers wanted it.

    Rudy Gay shittin' bricks for the Raps. Damn it.

    EDIT2: Oh snap, Lakers and Raps coming back.
    Last edited by jreg; 2013-02-09 at 02:04 AM.

  18. #2658
    Quote Originally Posted by jreg View Post
    Nope, stop reading into what isn't there. I'm simply stating that some success should not be a surprise. This is how they played in their first few years as the big three. Rondo being ball dominant isn't bad, but anyone who isn't blind can see that it comes at the cost of team ball movement.
    You can't say that we shouldn't be surprised that the C's are doing well without him if you think Rondo is better than his replacements. Replacing a good player with a not as good player should, theoretically, always make a team worse.

    There's no reason the C's couldn't continue to make the 3rd and 4th and 5th passes after Rondo dumped it off like they're doing now. Rondo can't force other players to shoot after his first pass. I think the reason they're playing well is because their backs are up against the wall and they're finally playing with some urgency, something they didn't have when they knew that they had their full roster.

  19. #2659
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    727
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    You can't say that we shouldn't be surprised that the C's are doing well without him if you think Rondo is better than his replacements. Replacing a good player with a not as good player should, theoretically, always make a team worse.
    That's not how it always works though. Conversely, should adding great talent together always equate success? Furthermore, Boston has played like this before. This is not that new to them. And they have a great coach who can adjust. Rondo is clearly better than his replacement but they are playing differently with Rondo out.

    There's no reason the C's couldn't continue to make the 3rd and 4th and 5th passes after Rondo dumped it off like they're doing now. Rondo can't force other players to shoot after his first pass. I think the reason they're playing well is because their backs are up against the wall and they're finally playing with some urgency, something they didn't have when they knew that they had their full roster.
    Except when Rondo is dominating the ball, players tend to stand around with some action from KG or Pierce to free up a shooter or open up a lane. It's still an offense that can be very effective but it doesn't really inspire great ball movement. Celtics in the last few years with Rondo as the main ball handler have always relied on tightly executed offensive sets. This was especially evident with Allen being used as decoy or the main shooter.

    This is why I'm not that surprised with their success. I did say that I'm surprised by the amount of success they've had though.

    EDIT: Amir motherfuckin' Johnson!
    Last edited by jreg; 2013-02-09 at 02:33 AM.

  20. #2660
    I think it's just laziness. When they had Rondo they weren't motivated to move off the ball like you said. It's not Rondo's fault, it's the team's fault for expecting their best player to do everything for them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •