2013 NBA Season News and Discussion

[Spectral]

A core of Drummond, Smoove, and Rondo is much, much better though. Drummond is a flat out fantastic pick and roll big and he is pretty good defensively. Monroe is wildly inept on the defensive end.

Agreed, provided Drummond takes even the slightest interest in learning to shoot free throws. The lack of shooting on that core would bother me a bit, but defense/shooting wings aren't a particularly scarce commodity. Rondo running pick and roll with those bigs would look awfully good if there were competent wing shooters to space the floor.

I don't really understand the people that have been negative about the Smith signing. Sure, he takes horrible shots, but a B+ 4 on both ends of the floor is a rare commodity, and they got him at a price that they can easily move him.

[buck008]

By what measure is he fore sure in the top 7? I'd actually for sure say he's not top 7. Going into 2013, I'd rather have Parker, Paul, Curry, Westbrook, Rose, Wall, Deron Williams, and Kyrie without any doubt. That's 8 guys. I'm not totally convinced Rondo is better than Conley and Lawson, and Lillard has a fighting chance to break out as better than Rondo.

Then again, I'm just not a fan of guards that shit up by offense by being completely inept outside of the paint.

He said passing point guard, though, so that eliminates Westbrook, Curry, and arguably Rose.

Also, Rondo is better than both Conley and Lawson by a good margin. I can't imagine a scenario where they are even close really. If he had a more consistent jump shot, I'd say it was Paul, Parker, Rose (if healthy), and Rondo fourth. Kyrie gives you nothing on D, D-Will is crazy inconsistent and takes plays/whole games off, Curry is just a shooter, Wall is pretty mediocre, and Westbrook isn't even the best playmaker on his own team, is inconsistent, and doesn't really commit to defense. Of those guys, Westbrook probably takes my 5 spot because the ceiling for him is so high.

[Blueobelisk]

When I say Rondo is top 7...in terms of talent he's probably beat out by CP3, Rose, Parker, Kyrie, and Westbrook for sure. Curry too (I feel like Curry is kind of spotty at scoring, although dude gets hot as fuck...but whatever lol I don't want to get yelled at). Then I'd name Rondo. Then John Wall and Deron Williams.

The thing is though, it kind of depends on the team you're trying to build where some people might outshine others.

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Alright guys time to stop dicking around. It's time for us to talk business.

Pat Riley trademarked the term "three-peat" and now because of the Miami Heat he's gonna make mad money this year. (Not that I think Heat will win per se, so much so as that after the ring ceremony and some regular season hype that they'll sell some merchandise.)

Can't we coin some term and make $$ off it?!

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Oh btw Derrick Rose is best player in the NBA.

I think we can all agree Lebron is the best player. But could Derrick Rose overtake Durant as #2 this season!?!??!!? I have boring ass Knicks and revamped Nets to watch but holy shit I want to see Bulls this year lol.

[Spectral]

He said passing point guard, though, so that eliminates Westbrook, Curry, and arguably Rose.

Ah, I misread that and just read it as "best point guard".

Also, Rondo is better than both Conley and Lawson by a good margin. I can't imagine a scenario where they are even close really. If he had a more consistent jump shot, I'd say it was Paul, Parker, Rose (if healthy), and Rondo fourth. Kyrie gives you nothing on D, D-Will is crazy inconsistent and takes plays/whole games off, Curry is just a shooter, Wall is pretty mediocre, and Westbrook isn't even the best playmaker on his own team, is inconsistent, and doesn't really commit to defense. Of those guys, Westbrook probably takes my 5 spot because the ceiling for him is so high.

You realize we're comparing to a guy that averages 11 a game career, has never cracked 14 a game, and can't shoot a lick, right?

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But could Derrick Rose overtake Durant as #2 this season!?!??!!?

I can't see a plausible argument for Rose even being as good as CP3.

[Blueobelisk]

Ya idk Spectral. In case you guys were wondering where that came from, DRose was interviewed various questions in a 90 second special and he was asked who the best player in the NBA was. His answer: Derrick Rose.

Which is an interesting concept, there certainly is a lot of hype around Rose and his Bulls that made 2nd round without him (I blame Jib and Stomped).

Top CURRENT* players should look something like:
Lebron
Durant
CP3
Tony Parker

Can we throw Rose's name in there?

Ya so maybe if Rose is really revitalized, athletic, and explosive I can name him in top 5. Otherwise I'm having some trouble:
-Tony Parker is getting older so I don't think he can run into paint as often.
-CP3 is still baller as fuck but he depends on a good team to get his assists up and show his value. Still, he's efficient.
-Lebron is untouchable right now to me unless he gets injured, or Wade/Bosh fall and he has to take more shots = he doesn't get to be super efficient (picky) with his shots.
-Durant? Not sure, he's out for vengeance for being #2 but I don't see how much better he can get.

Rose? Rose could potentially come back and certainly be more exciting to watch than everyone else.

Speaking of exciting to watch, Lebron was more popular than Kobe or some shit like that. I think Kobe was more fun to watch when he never passed and took like 40 shots early in the season. Lebron is...kind of boring. (Lebron and Wade dunks are fucking sick though.)

*I say current because sometimes I talk about best players and I value their prospects (how much they can develop, their age, etc). Right here, I'm talking about the best players right here right now 2013-2014.

[Spectral]

Ya idk Spectral. In case you guys were wondering where that came from, DRose was interviewed various questions in a 90 second special and he was asked who the best player in the NBA was. His answer: Derrick Rose.

Good for him, to be honest. I don't begrudge any of the top ten players in the world for feeling like they can be the best and saying so. I mean, Lebron is so far above anyone else that it seems a little silly, but #2 I can see a number of guys feeling like they can hit.

Ya idk Spectral. In case you guys were wondering where that came from, DRose was interviewed various questions in a 90 second Top CURRENT* players should look something like:
Lebron
Durant
CP3
Tony Parker

Can we throw Rose's name in there?[/quote]

I tend to think the gaps are bigger. I think there's a huge step down from Lebron to Durant, and then a large step down to the next tier, where I don't have as strong of an opinion. There's at least a half dozen guys that I'd be fine with someone calling the third best player in the league, and maybe even more than that. I don't even feel comfortable taking Duncan out of that group; his impact on both ends of the floor is still huge, and when he's in full on go mode, you get Game 6 of the Finals.

Ya so maybe if Rose is really revitalized, athletic, and explosive I can name him in top 5. Otherwise I'm having some trouble:
-Tony Parker is getting older so I don't think he can run into paint as often.

Agree.

-CP3 is still baller as fuck but he depends on a good team to get his assists up and show his value. Still, he's efficient.

Disagree. He made a shit Hornets team look competent with his all around savvy. The guy's just a dream at point. Those hesitation dribbles, lack of bad plays, the way he exploits defenses on pick and rolls... the man's just a basketball savant. If there was a hypothetical universe where I was picking up a team for just 2013-2014, I'd take CP3 third after Lebron and Durant and I wouldn't have to think about it very much. I think you're basically guaranteed a playoff appearance with him, and if you give him anything on the wings or pick and roll, you're getting an elite offense.

-Lebron is untouchable right now to me unless he gets injured, or Wade/Bosh fall and he has to take more shots = he doesn't get to be super efficient (picky) with his shots.

Agree with regard to Bosh, but I think he'd be better off without Wade. I'm a fanatic about floor spacing, and Wade's unwillingness or inability to learn to shoot the fucking ball just wrecks spacing. The Heat consistently looked better in Lebron-Bosh lineups when they were paired with shooters. Smart defenses just sag into the paint too much when a non-shooter like Wade is stationed on the perimeter. And yeah... Lebron's insane.

-Durant? Not sure, he's out for vengeance for being #2 but I don't see how much better he can get.

Agree. I love KD, he's probably my favorite player, but I think he is what he is at this point. Being any more efficient shooting the ball than he is seems impossible. I think he's probably as good passing the ball as he's likely to get, and that's just kind of that. Nothing to complain about though! Maintaining what he's doing will make him a top 15 or so player of all time.

Rose? Rose could potentially come back and certainly be more exciting to watch than everyone else.

I guess I'm biased. I just flat out don't like Rose. He's very, very good though and I have no particular desire to crap on his game.

Speaking of exciting to watch, Lebron was more popular than Kobe or some shit like that. I think Kobe was more fun to watch when he never passed and took like 40 shots early in the season. Lebron is...kind of boring. (Lebron and Wade dunks are fucking sick though.)

I hate Kobe with the fire of a million suns. He's everything that I'd never, ever want to play with. He's selfish, he's a dick, his shot selection is so ridiculously bad that it's comical. But yeah, I have to agree that he's entertaining - I've never seen anyone with a greater arsenal of offensive skills. Sure, he takes the dumbest fucking shots I've ever seen a player take, but he can actually make them!

*I say current because sometimes I talk about best players and I value their prospects (how much they can develop, their age, etc). Right here, I'm talking about the best players right here right now 2013-2014.

Worth mentioning that with Harden's emergence last year and the addition of Dwight, we're about to see one of the greatest pick and roll combos imaginable. I wouldn't be shocked if one of those guys (and I don't know which) seemed like the third most valuable guy by year's end.

[SL1200]

Ya idk Spectral. In case you guys were wondering where that came from, DRose was interviewed various questions in a 90 second special and he was asked who the best player in the NBA was. His answer: Derrick Rose.

I remember when he said he would be MVP and people laughed. They weren't laughing at the end of the season when he won it.
Hopefully he can go out and live up to what he said next season.

The only player who is better than Rose is Lebron and only because he's so much bigger. Durant may be better, idk i dont watch him enough to really say anything about him. Cp3 better than rose? Not when they played against each other if my memory serves me well. Derrick's teams never lost like cp3's teams did. How did them cp3 lead hornets teams do? Did the hornets have a winning season under cp3's leadership? How would the clippers do with Derrick and all that talent they got there? Championship. Tony Parker better than DRose? No fucking way, unless Derrick never recovers from that knee injury. If you trade a healthy drose for tony parker spurs win the championship this year easily.

If he returns to his pre injury form, he's the second or third best player in the league.

[conscript]

I remember when he said he would be MVP and people laughed. They weren't laughing at the end of the season when he won it.
Hopefully he can go out and live up to what he said next season.

The only player who is better than Rose is Lebron and only because he's so much bigger. Durant may be better, idk i dont watch him enough to really say anything about him. Cp3 better than rose? Not when they played against each other if my memory serves me well. Derrick's teams never lost like cp3's teams did. How did them cp3 lead hornets teams do? Did the hornets have a winning season under cp3's leadership? How would the clippers do with Derrick and all that talent they got there? Championship. Tony Parker better than DRose? No fucking way, unless Derrick never recovers from that knee injury. If you trade a healthy drose for tony parker spurs win the championship this year easily.

If he returns to his pre injury form, he's the second or third best player in the league.

Cp3 played on laughably bad Hornets' teams. They were essentially the same offensive ability as the current Bulls, bad, but without even close to the defense to match the Bulls. Yet somehow CP3 willed them into the playoffs a couple times in a far more difficult conference. Its tough/pointless to compare them though since, despite playing the same position, they have vastly different skill sets. I'd comfortably put Rose in the top 5 when healthy. I think the top two are clearly LeBron and Durant by large margins, Durant is the best shooter since Larry Bird, but I could slot a healthy Rose in at 3. I wish Chicago would loosen the purse strings and surround Rose with some legitimate offensive talent. I'd love to see what that guy could do with another star player on the team. But hey, they will still compete for the title and probably end up coming up short because Thibs is an absolute idiot about minutes and batters his best players into the ground during the regular season.

The problem for Chicago is that they are now the 3rd, maybe 4th, best team in the East as they continue to add no significant players while everyone else gets better. I love the Pacers acquisition of Scola. Love it. L-O-V-E I-T. If Wade is hobbled this year again in the playoffs, Indiana beats Miami with this roster barring a legendary LeBron performance. Scola gives them some quality offensive punch in their rotation, something they lacked drastically. I think Brooklyn is better than Chicago as constructed. They have a fantastic 1-9 on both ends of the court.

[Spectral]

I remember when he said he would be MVP and people laughed. They weren't laughing at the end of the season when he won it.
Hopefully he can go out and live up to what he said next season.

I wasn't laughing, I was irritated, because it as the dumbest fucking MVP selection of my lifetime.

The only player who is better than Rose is Lebron and only because he's so much bigger. Durant may be better, idk i dont watch him enough to really say anything about him. Cp3 better than rose?

I really don't know what leads people to the conclusion that Rose is as good as Paul. Paul's career line is 18.6-9.8-4.4, 2.4 steals, 2.4 turnovers, 57.5% TS%. Rose is 21-6.8-3.8, 0.9 steals, 2.9 turnovers, 53.4% TS%. He's worse at literally everything. Those extra 3.4 points are coming by taking 3.7 more shots per game.

Not when they played against each other if my memory serves me well. Derrick's teams never lost like cp3's teams did. How did them cp3 lead hornets teams do? Did the hornets have a winning season under cp3's leadership?

Yes, CP3 carried the fuck out of the Hornets. They won 56 games with him. When he left, they crashed from 46 wins to 21.

How would the clippers do with Derrick and all that talent they got there? Championship.

The Clippers won 32 games the year before Paul arrived. They jumped to a 60% win percentage in the lockout shortened season, and then 56 wins last year. There's zero evidence for just shouting ROSE WOULD WIN A TITLE.

Tony Parker better than DRose? No fucking way, unless Derrick never recovers from that knee injury. If you trade a healthy drose for tony parker spurs win the championship this year easily.

Do you watch basketball regularly? Do you grasp that styles matter? Rose plays in a system that works for his talents, where he dominates the ball and has carte blanche to shoot a lot. That sort of stagnation would be disastrous for the Spurs, they rely on heavy ball movement. Rose is obviously more talented than Parker, but there's no reason at all to believe that the Spurs would be better with a ballstopper for a point guard.

If he returns to his pre injury form, he's the second or third best player in the league.

I'd go for second or third best point guard in the league. He's nearly identical to Westbrook, and about equal in value to Parker.

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The problem for Chicago is that they are now the 3rd, maybe 4th, best team in the East as they continue to add no significant players while everyone else gets better. I love the Pacers acquisition of Scola. Love it. L-O-V-E I-T.

Couldn't agree more. I like Scola! I don't understand why he's so frequently freely available. He's bad defensively, but anytime I can bring one of the best pick and roll bigs around off the bench for some punch, I'm going to be pretty happy. When I'm giving him minutes that were played by Ian Mahinmi and Tyler Hansbrough, I'm going to be downright elated.

[SL1200]

Stat wise Rose and Paul are nearly Identical, but in head to head match ups Derrick is 5-0 against Paul. Derrick's team hasn't missed the playoffs since he was drafted. Derrick led the team to a +.750 record twice. Derrick's team advanced in the playoffs 3/6 years since he's been drafted. Derrick's team also made the conference finals. Paul's teams have never even made it out of the first round of the playoffs, and they've missed the playoffs nearly as much as they've made it.

The Nba playoff's are not hard to make. half the teams get in, sometimes with loosing records.

[Skarsguard]

If you asked all the NBA players who they would rather play with Rose,Parker, or CP3 Rose would be in dead last. He doesn't make anybody better just himself and that's it. I would say that Westbrook and Rose are more alike then Rose and CP3 or Parker. Now if you asked me who would I want with the ball in the last few seconds it would probably be Rose or Parker more then CP3 he kinda fades back from what I see in those times. I think it really comes down to what team they are on Westbook and Rose would not be good on the Spurs and I don't think Parker would be that great for the bulls he would do decent on the Clippers I think though.

[Spectral]

Stat wise Rose and Paul are nearly Identical

No they're fucking not. I repeat:

I really don't know what leads people to the conclusion that Rose is as good as Paul. Paul's career line is 18.6-9.8-4.4, 2.4 steals, 2.4 turnovers, 57.5% TS%. Rose is 21-6.8-3.8, 0.9 steals, 2.9 turnovers, 53.4% TS%. He's worse at literally everything. Those extra 3.4 points are coming by taking 3.7 more shots per game.

but in head to head match ups Derrick is 5-0 against Paul.

This is a brutally stupid way of assessing players, as it ignores team context and relies on small sample size theatre.

Derrick's team hasn't missed the playoffs since he was drafted.

They also didn't miss the playoffs without him. How were the Hornets without Paul again?

Derrick's team advanced in the playoffs 3/6 years since he's been drafted.

Oh hey, and they advanced without him! It's almost like he plays on a team that has elite coaching and defense.

Paul's teams have never even made it out of the first round of the playoffs

This is just wrong. Look it up.

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Now if you asked me who would I want with the ball in the last few seconds it would probably be Rose or Parker more then CP3 he kinda fades back from what I see in those times.

From the last season Rose was healthy: http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

Paul's close and late numbers are 41.2 and 8.9 with 42.4% shooting. Rose is 33.3 and 7.6 with 30% shooting. Holy shit, 30%? Perhaps Rose should think about fading back a bit.

For the only data I can find (here), Paul was 8 of 21 career on game winning and tying shots, which is about 8% better than league average. If the ol' "clutchiness" is what we're looking for Paul may or may not be great, but he's better than Rose.

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Ah, here's some final minute numbers as well: http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Rose is 16 of 58 career, with 2 assists. That's fucking awful. I know people don't want to believe it, but Derek Rose isn't magically clutch. Like every other player that runs too many isos, he gets shut down at the end of games.

[SL1200]

Wow such hostile posting i'm a little taken back, if you continue with anger and vile I won't be responding any further. Derrick's teams do something Paul's teams don't, they win. In the regular season and in the playoffs Derrick's teams win. Ignore the facts, say i'm lying then tell me to go look it up all you want. It's a fact that Derrick's team wins, and it's not a coincidence. Remember the Bulls were a Lottery team the year before he was drafted. Haven't been in the Lottery since. Paul never made it out of the first round of the playoffs, I did look it up. How many coaches has that guy gotten fired now?

Wins and losses matter.

[Blueobelisk]

Paul never made it out of the first round of the playoffs, I did look it up.

[Jibjabb]

I wasn't laughing, I was irritated, because it as the dumbest fucking MVP selection of my lifetime.

Really? Were you not alive when Steve Nash won over Shaq and Dirk Nowitzki twice?

He shot 6% against lebron in the 2011 ECF, the guy is the most overrated player of the last 30 years. He won the MVP because of lebron backlash and wilbon and is nothing but a lesser version of Iverson.

Made up stats are cool. He had a really bad series, he was 22 years old and having to lead a team against a superteam. I think we can understand that it wouldnt go easy for him

If you asked all the NBA players who they would rather play with Rose,Parker, or CP3 Rose would be in dead last.

Zero chance of that happening. Players want to play with young talent that can help carry a team. Parker is not that

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Oh hey, and they advanced without him! It's almost like he plays on a team that has elite coaching and defense.

They also lost to the 8th seeded 76ers after demolishing them the game he was playing. Implying the Bulls dont need Rose much is just nonsense

[SL1200]

Ok I stand corrected, He made it out of the second round 1 time in 8 years of play. I don't think that quality's him as one of the best players in the league. Imagine what people would say about Lebron if he only made the semifinals once in 8 years.

[conscript]

Ok I stand corrected, He made it out of the second round 1 time in 8 years of play. I don't think that quality's him as one of the best players in the league. Imagine what people would say about Lebron if he only made the semifinals once in 8 years.

Two times. The Hornets won a round in 2008 before dropping to the Spurs in 7.

The best players Paul has ever played with are David West (the 3rd or 4th best guy on the Pacers now) and a past his prime Peja. In a far, far better conference than the East. Not that this is really even a fair point at all since Rose hasn't played with shit either outside of Noah, but the East is a fucking joke. If you get a top 4 seed you should be able to walk through your first round opponent. If you finish a top 2 seed you are probably playing a .500 or sub .500 team. Take a look at CP3s last season in New Orleans and Rose's last healthy season and playoffs 2010-2011. Cp3 played with David West, Trevor Ariza, Carl Landry, and Omeka Okafor. The Hornets won 46 games, good enough to finish 5th in the East although they certainly would have been the 4th see if they played all their games in the East like Orlando did, finished in the 7th seed and lost to the Lakers in 6. Chicago won 62 games featuring Rose, a still functional Boozer, Deng, and Noah, placed 1st in the East and promptly steamrolled a 37 win(.451 win%) Indiana team that would have finished TWELFTH 4-1 and a 44 win Atlanta team that would missed the playoffs also 4-2.

So its pretty pointless to even try and compare their playoff records, just like it is their games since they don't have comparable skill sets really. CP3 has never played with the talent Rose has until he got to the Clippers, who have admittedly woefully underperformed although it is hard to hang that on CP3. Rose has made exactly one deep playoff run in his career, winning two series against teams who wouldn't have even been in the playoffs in the West.

Frankly neither of them have impressive playoff track records. Rose is 2-3 in playoff series (2-4 if you throw in the Philly series) with a 14-15 record. CP3 is 16-24 with a 2-5 series record.

[Spectral]

Ok I stand corrected, He made it out of the second round 1 time in 8 years of play. I don't think that quality's him as one of the best players in the league. Imagine what people would say about Lebron if he only made the semifinals once in 8 years.

Imagine what people would say about Lebron if after he'd left, Cleveland went to the second round without him. We'd hear nothing but a nonstop "Lebron is carried by teammates" mantra. That narrative would be stupid, but it'd exist.

Paul also made the second round with a Hornets team that proceeded to drop to 20-some wins without him. There's no coherent argument for Rose over Paul, and repeating, "ROSE JUST WINS" over and over isn't going to cut it. I'm hostile because you're making a plainly bad argument, ignoring cited facts, and just making things up out of thin air and just repeating it over and over.

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They also lost to the 8th seeded 76ers after demolishing them the game he was playing. Implying the Bulls dont need Rose much is just nonsense

There's nothing in any of my posts that suggests that the Bulls don't need Rose. I said that he's one of the four best point guards in the league; that's not an insult. The obvious reality though is that he does play for a team with elite coaching and defense, which makes the "he's a winner!" mantra pretty pointless and incoherent. He's not carrying some talentless crew.

[Stommped]

In their last 3 matchups:

Paul - 16ppg, 10.6apg, 3rpg
Rose - 23.3ppg, 9apg, 5.3rpg

This is such a laughable discussion. Let's list all the advantages Chris Paul has over Derrick:

- Court Vision
- Passing
- Free Throws

Now lets list all the advantages Derrick has over Chris Paul:

- Faster
- Stronger
- Quicker First Move
- Finishing after Contact
- Rebounding
- Defense
- Finishing at the rim (better dunker)

I'll love shooting in general as a toss up. Comparing their last full seasons Derrick was slightly better from 3 but Paul was more efficient in and around the paint.

[buck008]

If I could start a team from scratch today, there is only one reason that I would take Rose over Paul, and that is age. Paul is a better point guard, Rose is a better offensive weapon. Rose is younger, more athletic, and a better scorer. Paul is a better floor leader, passer, and play maker. So while Rose is potentially a better all around player, Chris Paul is a better point guard by miles and miles.