2013 NBA Season News and Discussion

[jreg]

<snip>

Dallas Mavericks 2010-2011 Playoff Stats
Dirk Nowitzki - 27.7 ppg, 2.5 apg, 8.1 rpg, 48.5% FG, 46.0% 3P, 94.1% FT
Jason Terry - 17.5 ppg, 3.2 apg, 1.9 rpg, 47.8% FG, 44.2% 3P, 84.3% FT
Shawn Marion - 11.9 ppg, 2.1 apg, 6.3 rpg, 46.7% FG, 00.0% 3P, 85.1% FT
Jason Kidd - 9.3 ppg, 7.3 apg, 4.5 rpg, 39.8% FG, 37.4% 3P, 80.0% FT
Tyson Chandler - 8.0 ppg, 0.4 apg, 9.2rpg, 58.2% FG, 0.00% 3P, 67.9% FT

Miami Heat 2012-2013 Playoff Stats
LeBron James - 25.9 ppg, 6.6 apg, 8.4 rpg, 49.1% FG, 37.5% 3P, 77.7% FT
Dwyane Wade - 15.9 ppg, 4.8 apg, 4.6 rpg, 45.7% FG, 25.0% 3P, 75.0% FT
Chris Bosh - 12.1 ppg, 1.5 apg, 7.3 rpg, 45.8% FG, 40.5% 3P, 73.3% FT
Ray Allen - 10.2 ppg, 1.3 apg, 2.8 rpg, 43.0% FG, 40.6% 3P, 87.0% FT
Mario Chalmers - 9.4 ppg, 3.1 apg, 2.3 rpg, 41.5% FG, 35.3% 3P, 75.5% FT

There's no doubt Dirk's run was very impressive. I'm not taking anything away from him. He's one of the best European players ever, possesses one of the most unstoppable shots in league history, and ranks up there with almost any PF. Just think the idea he had "no help" is an atrociously heavy-handed summary when statistically, LeBron's supposed-to-be vastly superior teammates (mostly aimed at Wade and Bosh here) performed essentially at the same tier by playing miserably through a combination of injuries, horrendous personal play, and strong defenses.

[SL1200]

It's true. In terms of legacy/greatness I'd rank Dirk over KG.

Btw while I'm watching Chicago beat NY I should ask. Is Derrick Rose gonna come back or what. I think he became really obscure after taking the whole year off and I don't really want to poke holes and bring up bad memories or hassle any Chicago people but...If Chicago keeps 3rd seed it'll make it to round 2 again.

No he's not coming back, not this year anyway. I'm starting to think the Bulls best move would be to trade D. Rose for Carmello.

That game against the Knicks was painful to watch. I hope they preform better than that in the playoffs.

I'd like to add; since lakers01 brought his name up, I hate Reggie Rose. That lowlife bum needs get a job. One that's not being paid by Derrick.

[Jibjabb]

I dont mean no help as in they all suck, I mean significantly less help than other teams in the past where theres no real #2 or even #3. All I hear these days is "you need at least 2 superstars to win" "you gotta team up with others" and Dallas showed that you dont. They had one superstar and a bunch of role players. Bosh and Wade are still much better players than Terry/Marion/Chandler/Kidd etc. Both those guys had better years their first title run as opposed to the San Antonio year (prob cause SA was the better team but I digress). And in the case of Wade he outplayed anyone on either side of the Mavs title run outside of Dirk. I still think when hes healthy hes really damn good, hes simply never healthy anymore it seems and its sad to see for a guy who isnt that old

Although Ive lost most of the respect I had for him early in his career because of how he acts on the court now with the dirty plays and flops. I dont even care about the decision aspect with him

[jreg]

Yeah, but I think it's a narrative that gets run into the ground because of the whole superstar thing lately which is also weird because it's not a new phenomena. Showtime Lakers, 80s Celtics, early 2000s Lakers, 80s 76ers, Bad Boy Pistons, and on and on.

Tim Duncan might classify under that nebulous "less help/no help" banner with his early-mid 2000s teams, Hakeem with his, Barkley almost got it in Phoenix but MJ existed so that threw everyone into a loop. Point is, lots of guys fall under that category of "less help", it's not so super amplified as it is now for some odd reason. You never really see people hyper-analyze those early stacked teams or those less help teams as the most recent winners. I guess time will tell how we treat these teams.

Also, agreed. Wade played great in the 2010-2011 NBA Finals and if Miami somehow had won, Wade would've and should've gotten the Finals MVP, not LeBron. The problem is, he just can't stay healthy or play consistently these days. He played pretty good in the first championship run but in the second he was miserable at times and this season, he's only had flashes of his old self despite our health maintenance plan.

[Spectral]

The arguments for Garnett center around two important points - defense and team support. The stats have already been covered here - Dirk's indisputably a better, more efficient scorer. I think his offensive value is probably actually understated by traditional stats, as he forces defenses to do weird things to deal that sort of shooting from a 4. In particular, Dirk-based pick and rolls are downright unfair. The thing is, Garnett brings more rebounding, much more defense, and (for most of their careers), better passing. To this point, he's played about an additional 200 games, although one would expect that to more or less be washed out by this year's ineffectiveness, if Dirk plays well again next year.

I have no idea how one would go about coherently quantifying defensive value, but I'm comfortable saying that defense is generally undervalued in popular conversations. Garnett had an indisputably excellent defensive career, notably having a transformative effect on the entire Celtics culture with regard to defense and providing the rim protection needs to allow gambling from their perimeter guys.

Comparing team success prior to Boston is cherrypicking. Garnett dragged a team whose 2nd and 3rd best players were a 33 year old Spreewell and a 34 year old Cassell to 58 wins. This is a team that also started Trenton Hassell, Ervin Johnson, and occasionally the immortal Michael Olowokandi. Their primary 6th man was Fred Hoiberg. This was not a good basketball team. Dirk, meanwhile, has consistently played with coherently constructed rosters, on a team run by arguably the best owner in all of sports. A few years with Nash, a great breakthrough season (where they should have won the title) in 05-06 with Jason Terry and Josh Howard playing great ball next to him, and continually analytics based team constructions that take advantage of Dirk's skillset - by any measure, he's had a better team environment.

I'm a big Dirk fan and I actively dislike Garnett. I can easily see an argument for Dirk, as he's incredibly valuable offensively and has showed something near no decline in value. I have no problem with ranking him very high. My only objection is with declaring that there's no way that a guy with superior defense and rebounding could be more valuable.

[Jibjabb]

Its because the bottom line is winning games, and being a dominant offensive player is consistently more important to team success because it opens up everybody elses game and cant really be stopped without leaving someone else wide open. On the defensive side, a dominant defender can really just be avoided for the most part if a team really wants to. Its why the premium is always paid to the offensive players since GMs know they are more important to victories. Steve Nash won back to back MVPs and that guy was straight up one of the worst defenders I have ever seen in my life, Dirk was at least alright.

Just saw this story, kind of nice to read
http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/p...-dirk-nowitzki

Since November, Durant has been working with Adam Harrington as his personal trainer beyond his daily duties with the Oklahoma City Thunder. Which is the same Adam Harrington who briefly played alongside Nowitzki with the Dallas Mavericks more than a decade ago and has been studying the unorthodox coaching techniques hatched by Nowitzki's longtime mentor and shot doctor from back home, Holger Geschwindner, ever since.
"It's a lot more than just trying to copy the one-legger," Durant said, explaining that he's not merely focused on trying to mimic Nowitzki's signature shot.
"Dirk's got a lot of moves I'm trying to steal."

Dirk, you see, is Durant's favorite active player.
"I don't know him so well," Durant said of Nowitzki, "but I've always liked the way he goes about his business.
"And I've learned a lot from him by just studying the techniques."

[jreg]

Its because the bottom line is winning games, and being a dominant offensive player is consistently more important to team success because it opens up everybody elses game and cant really be stopped without leaving someone else wide open.

Being a dominant offensive force doesn't necessarily mean you'll open up the game for the team in the same degree as another player. Different players dominate in different ways. Carmelo has been one of the best isolation players in the league but it can cause the ball movement to stagnate. On the flip side, you can't really play selfish and good defense. Hawking for steals isn't really good defense if you're letting the guy by at a rate equal to your steals.

On the defensive side, a dominant defender can really just be avoided for the most part if a team really wants to.

I'm not really sure what this means? If your dominant defender is the center, teams are going to have a hard time avoiding it. Obviously, teams can game plan for anything but I mean, there's a reason why the best defenses in the league have tremendous defenders in the paint. You put Joakim Noah on any team right now, and they become a top 10 defense. Hibbert, before this meltdown lately, had the same effect.

As for other positions, a dominant wing is going to try and stick to your best wing players (which there are a lot in this league) and that certainly is going to hamper your offense. I mean, you can run pick and rolls, pin downs, and horns to find mismatches and holes but the best defenses usually have the necessary personnel and planning to deal with all that, especially if you have someone like a Tony Allen.

Its why the premium is always paid to the offensive players since GMs know they are more important to victories.

Nah, it's because offense puts butts into seats. No one from the range of casual to semi-fervent fan is going to fill up the house with only good defense without some established fan base. It's just the way it is. More flash, more fun but sometimes it's less substance and leads to less long term success.

Steve Nash won back to back MVPs and that guy was straight up one of the worst defenders I have ever seen in my life, Dirk was at least alright.

I don't think he should have but what's done is done. Kobe should've have one of his I think. LeBron maybe the other. Though I shouldn't say that out loud in Canada.

[Spectral]

Its because the bottom line is winning games, and being a dominant offensive player is consistently more important to team success because it opens up everybody elses game and cant really be stopped without leaving someone else wide open.

I don't think there's any evidence that team offense is more important than team defense. It's probably true that a single player can contribute more offensively than defensively, but defense has historically been underrated primarily because it's harder to quantify. Also, in the case of the two players we're comparing, we're not talking about an inept offensive guy that's a defensive ace, we're talking about one of the great defense/rebounding power forwards that was also one of the best offensively. If you were putting letter grades on each guy, you'd call Dirk's offense an A+ (there might not be a more important offensive 4 ever) and his defense perhaps a C+. Garnett's perhaps an A- offensively and an A defensively. Which of those is better? Pretty subjective.

On the defensive side, a dominant defender can really just be avoided for the most part if a team really wants to.

This, as jreg notes, is just a weird thing to say. I don't even know what it's supposed to mean. You can't avoid a rim protector. Well, I guess you can, but it means taking crummy shots, which means that rim protector has contributed a ton of value without even really needing to do anything.

Its why the premium is always paid to the offensive players since GMs know they are more important to victories.

This is basically just not true at all. Defensive aces get paid significant amounts of money even if they provide almost nothing offensively. Hell, look at the contract that Larry Sanders got. Tyson Chandler's made a living doing nothing but running pick and rolls and playing great D. Ben Wallace, who literally has much less offensive skill than a bunch of regular posters here, made ~$46 million over a three year span.

Again, to be clear, an individual can generally contribute more offensively, so there's probably going to be somewhat an historic tilt towards paying more for offense than defense, but you're exaggerating the effect here.

Steve Nash won back to back MVPs and that guy was straight up one of the worst defenders I have ever seen in my life, Dirk was at least alright.

Steve Nash won back to back MVPs because the media's fucking stupid.

[Deleted]

jibjabb thats not true, sure you need a great scorer to win the title , but most champions ''all time'' were top 1-5 in defense at that time in the league...
without defense and team-play you wont make the title, you can have all the great scorers .
For example the la lakers with malone and payton(sure oneal , bryant etc but they were already lakers). They are HoF's and despise the face that they were not the youngest , they were still pretty darn good, but they didnt fit in or couldn adjust to the systems /staff /players etc.
it's just to one-dimensional to say these kind of statements.
(Sorry if the text ist full of mistakes , not the best in english^^)

[Jibjabb]

I don't think there's any evidence that team offense is more important than team defense. It's probably true that a single player can contribute more offensively than defensively, but defense has historically been underrated primarily because it's harder to quantify. Also, in the case of the two players we're comparing, we're not talking about an inept offensive guy that's a defensive ace, we're talking about one of the great defense/rebounding power forwards that was also one of the best offensively. If you were putting letter grades on each guy, you'd call Dirk's offense an A+ (there might not be a more important offensive 4 ever) and his defense perhaps a C+. Garnett's perhaps an A- offensively and an A defensively. Which of those is better? Pretty subjective

To me its more like comparing Shaq to Dwight Howard (ignoring the championships/locker room stuff just how they played). Shaq is clearly more valuable because he can flat out dominate games a lot harder than Dwight can even though Dwight is the superior defender overall and still is a pretty good offensive force, just not as good. But the impact Shaq has on an overall game was too much for most teams to overcome. Obvious Dirk and KG are closer than Shaq/Dwight in terms of skill and different styles of play but the same concept applies.

And what I meant was, lets say you have Bruce Bowen on your team. I can simply ignore whoever he is on if I really wanted to, or if that person was a great offensive player it wouldnt matter what his defense is because great offensive players will score anyways if they are on their game. I can also screen him off my ball carrier forcing a switch if done right. If its a rim protector than I can put a shot maker (like Dirk) and force him out the paint. Theres a lot of ways to minimize a defensive players impact when there isnt really much you can do to stop a great offensive player other than try and double/triple which becomes incredibly risky since most NBA players will hit wide open shots.

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jibjabb thats not true, sure you need a great scorer to win the title , but most champions ''all time'' were top 1-5 in defense at that time in the league...

A lot of the all time great players werent great defenders at all. Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Shaq, Jerry West, Barkley etc

[Swankyy]

Let's see.

San An 0.0 games back. 6 games left.
OKC 3 games back. 8 games left.
LAC 2.5 games back of 2nd seed. 5 games left.

Doesn't look like anyone is taking the top 2 seeds away from OKC/Spurs, so that means they can't meet until the Finals. That's good for the Spurs. LAC is basically a lock for 3rd seed (as in, Houston can't take it away from them) and I could see LAC toppling OKC, they're young enough to keep up with a fast pace.

Btw, Knicks are currently 8th seed. Ehehehehhe. PLAYOFFS YO. Knicks have 6 games left and Atlanta has 8 games left, so Atlanta could still take it back.

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Knicks lost to Wizards LOL.

I hope you meant the Western Conference Finals and not THE FINALS

[Blueobelisk]

I hope you meant the Western Conference Finals and not THE FINALS

(Lol when I get quoted I'm like "uhhh wtf did I say again?" to myself.)

Yeah sorry I meant WCF. I think we were talking about West so I didn't really specify West.

----

Chicago 11 points ahead of Magic, one quarter left. Yes.
Toronto beat Milwaukee...
Miami tanked to Wizards LOL. Well 21 point loss. Might be more than a "tank." Pacers rank 1 East.

I'm up so I'll see the last few mins of Houston and Spurs. I want Spurs to win. Even though Houston is in danger of losing 4th seed to Portland. (Portland is half game back.)

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Andrew Bogut fractured a rib on Sunday. GSW are fucked.

[Gumboy]

I think a big headline would be "Andrew Bogut NOT hurt!!!!" honestly :P

And yeah Heat are scared of the hawks apparently! (more likely the second round match up) cowards.

[Blueobelisk]

I was fucked up tired last night and didn't even bother watching the end of the game. Spurs lost. :/

TWO DAYS LEFT MOTHER FUCKERS.

NYK @ Brooklyn tonight 8 PM TNT.
Nuggets @ LAC tonight afterward TNT.

Then tomorrow, all 30 teams have to play on the final day of the season to solidify spots. And Saturday playoffs start.

Oh shit son it's Easter weekend and I have an extended break so I'm good.

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Let's see. Beside Brooklyn and LAC who play today, if we look at the number of games back teams are then we can determine their spots sort of. (If a team is 1.5+ games back ahead of the team under them then they're completely safe for their seed.)

West
Spurs rank 1.
OKC rank 2.
LAC rank 3. All safe.
Houston 1 game ahead of Portland.
Portland 3 games ahead of GSW.

Then lol for 3 teams. Phoenix got left out. I feel kind of bad.

Soooooooooo.

West
1. Spurs
2. OKC
3. LAC
4. 5. Houston/Portland.
6. 7. 8. GSW/Dallas/Memphis.

East
Indiana rank 1. Indi is only 1 game ahead of Miami but I think their season series are tied, both lead division, but Indi has better conference record.
Miami rank 2. No way Toronto can catch up.
Toronto/Chicago rank 3/4.
Brooklyn rank 5.
Washington/Charlotte rank 6/7.
Hawks rank 8.

East
1. Indiana
2. Miami
3. 4. Toronto/Chicago
5. Brooklyn
6. 7. Washington/Charlotte
8. Hawks

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So. Knicks are apparently about to sign Lamar Odom. Like, all that's left is paperwork.

And also, Amare is likely to play in Israel or something when his contract ends in 2015.

Knicks fucking suck.

[Stommped]

Couple things. OKC hasn't yet clinched the 2 seed, if LAC win last 2 games and OKC loses, LAC will win tiebreaker based on conference record (they split H2H). Houston is already locked into 4 by virtue of H2H record vs. Portland, so that series is set. Golden State is locked into the #6 seed, they own H2H tiebreaker over Dallas and conference record tiebreaker over Memphis. So Dallas vs. Memphis tomorrow night determines 7 seed vs 8 seed.

The East is a bit more complicated than you have there, Brooklyn isn't yet locked into the 5 seed. In fact, Brian Windhorst is reporting that the Nets are planning on "resting" everybody in hopes that they can fall to the 6 seed and play Toronto in the first round. Washington owns tiebreaker over Brooklyn by sweeping them this year, but Charlotte owns tiebreaker over Washington by H2H record.

[Blueobelisk]

:O

You're right Stommped.

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Spurs win NBA Championship	Tony Parker wins league MVP	Skars comes to 2014 NBA draft
Bulls win NBA Championship	Derrick Rose wins league MVP	Jib comes to 2014 NBA draft
Pistons win NBA Championship	LOL no one is gonna be league MVP, so if 5 Pistons become All Stars	Conscript comes to 2014 NBA draft
Lakers win Western Conference Championship	Kobe Bryant wins scoring title or league MVP	Iced comes to 2014 NBA draft
Raptors win NBA Championship	Two players make All Star Team	Jreg goes to 2016 All Star Game in Toronto
Bulls win NBA Championship	Joakim Noah wins Defensive PoY	Stompped comes to 2014 NBA draft
Wizards win East Conference Finals	John Wall wins MVP or scoring title or leads NBA in assists	Spectral comes to 2014 NBA draft
Jazz makes it to second round of Western Conference playoffs	Any Jazz player wins league MVP or scoring title or Defensive PoY	Pendulous comes to 2014 NBA draft
Heat win NBA Championship and any Heat player wins league MVP	Heat win 32+ consecutive games or win 72+ regular season games or go 16-0 in the Eastern Conference Finals	Buck comes to 2014 NBA draft

Left + middle = right

We still have this bet going on guys. Someone could go to 2014 NBA Draft. Since the awards are going to be given soon, let's see.

Uhmmm. Going down the list.

1. Tony Parker isn't winning MVP, even though Spurs are rank 1.
2. Derrick Rose isn't winning MVP lol.
3. Lol Pistons.
4. Kobe Bryant lol.
5. Sorry only one Toronto All Star.
6. Stompped is still in contention!
7. Sorry Wizards.
8. Lol Jazz.
9. Possible?

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Mmmm I was thinking about it, and isn't it funny guys? Knicks go from #2 seed in Eastern Conference to missing playoffs after one year. The core of the team was essentially the same, and the competition in the East got worse. The difference? Knicks traded/let go of good role players from the bench.

Really the team couldn't get better from their 54 wins, since they were getting mad lucky with their 3s. But to be down to 35 wins with 2 games left...lol...

[Stommped]

5 players from the same team make the All-Star team? Conscript had no chance at winning this. I looked it up, 6 times a team has had 4 players make the All Star team, no team has ever had 5 players.

[Blueobelisk]

Oh. I see...Piston's not winning championship anyway. Who we kiddin.'

I was excited about Knicks vs. Nets tonight but lol not only are Nets resting 6 people, Knicks are probably gonna rest Melo for rest of season.

[Gumboy]

I still cant believe nick van exel got a shout out in a jay-z song. I mean sure he was good but really? Probably just rhymed right <.<

[Blueobelisk]

This if challenging. If OKC fall to the lowly Pistons and LAC beats Portland, then LAC becomes 2 seed.

On the converse, Nets have to lose to the lowly Cavs and Wizards must beat Boston for Nets to drop down to 6th seed.

And then we got Chicago at Bobcats and Toronto at Knicks for possibility of those seeds switching. If Chicago wins and Toronto lose then there's a switch.