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MMO-Champion
There was not that many bans. The top guilds are still raiding, on 10man. In all seriousness, it is stupid the healing difference between 10 and 25 on this fight. Almost killed it in 10man on alts, and hardly getting far into the fight on mains in 25man. There is a severe difference in damage on these fights. On the first three heroics for that matter. I've yet to test after that on both difficulties, but at this moment it is very imbalanced.Originally Posted by UR1L
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Thread: heroic yor'sahj imbalance
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2011-12-09, 09:35 AM #21High Overlord
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"It is only the great men who are truly obscene, for if they never dared to be obscene, they never could have dared to be great."
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2011-12-09, 09:39 AM #22Deleted
Spoiler: people like doing 10-mans more.
Your precious 25 ants biting at the ankles of some dragon aren't the king of the hill just because the are more people in the group. Same difficulty in content, same progress, easier to organize (especially on the increasing number of low population servers).
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2011-12-09, 09:41 AM #23DeletedIt's one boss, and only the second boss. And the reason its hard is due to DPS checks, which are always harder in 25m. Why? Because 10m raids are by nature more diverse in terms of min/maxing and therefore their DPS check tuning is made more flexible. Give it a week or two for people to get gear and everyone and their grandma will have Yor'sahj down. Originally Posted by MarizzaDraenor
Long story short? Get over it.
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2011-12-09, 09:43 AM #24Mechagnome
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Originally Posted by MarizzaDraenor
Who gives a shit about rankings outside of the top 15 or 20 (world wide) or to 2 or 3 (for your specific server) ?
Ranking systems are inherently flawed anyway, since a guild that raids on say W/Th/F and kills 5/8 heroic killing the 5th boss on Friday will be ranked higher than a guild that raids Saturday/Sunday and kills 5/8 heroic on Sunday.
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2011-12-09, 09:44 AM #25Deleted21.57% of all 25 man guilds have killed Morchok. 12.53% of all 10 man guilds have killed Morchok. Originally Posted by MarizzaDraenor
25 man Morchok is killed more by 25 mans. This is how you should compare fairly. There simply are 5000000x more 10 man guilds.
Yorsahj? Again, some fights are harder on 10 man, some are harder on 25 man. Still the percentages don't scare me. 5 out of the 6 bosses are killed more on 25 mans. Please stop the whining now.
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2011-12-09, 09:47 AM #26DeletedYou....are an idiot. Originally Posted by jtstormrage
Originally Posted by MarizzaDraenor
Looking at the percentages, 25mans are doing better at the moment, take your conclusions out of that what you will.
---------- Post added 2011-12-09 at 10:50 AM ----------
Originally Posted by Ardorius
I'm glad there are still a few sensible people lurking on these forums.Last edited by mmocf54289d1be; 2011-12-09 at 09:52 AM.
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2011-12-09, 11:45 AM #27Dreadlord
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Like others have said, that data actually suggests 25m HC to be easier. But you don't appear to be saying that. Originally Posted by MarizzaDraenor
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2011-12-09, 12:15 PM #28DeletedThe number of 10man guilds is inflated by the fact that there are tons of casual 10man guilds and pugs that does 10man in comparison to 25man. Originally Posted by Ardorius
If you want a better comparison, use the number of guilds that have killed Ragnaros heroic on 10man (1455)/25man (354).
That tells us that 18,7 % of the 10man guilds who have killed Ragnaros on 10man heroic have killed Yor'sahj, while only 3,4 % of the guilds who killed Ragnaros heroic 25man, have killed Yor'sahj on 25man.
Of course this comparison is ruined by the fact that Ragnaros 10man heroic was severely easier on 10man, and that a lot of 25man guilds are banned at the moment and are doing 10man instead. However the numbers still show a heavy imbalance in favour of 10man.
Hopefully the numbers will change a bit when we reach server maintenance, considering it's very likely that a lot of 10man guilds run out of schedule at the moment in comparison to 25man, considering it is easier to have a flexible raiding schedule as a 10man guild.
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2011-12-09, 12:22 PM #29The Lightbringer
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sheer numbers games of how many guilds there are and how many killed said boss =/= the difficulty. There are gonna be far more casual 10m guilds than 25m guilds skewing the number greatly as 10m caters more to a casual raid style
THATS NOT TO SAY ALL 10MS ARE CASUALS
Put that in caps so nobody freaks out about that last quote. Many of the top-tier aka best 25m guilds raiding right now, guilds that have been some of the best from years past constantly bringing in high quality players with high standards are only 2-8 while there are many 10ms that are progressed further with lesser players. Showing the difficulty between the 2 sadly isnt balanced at all, most likely due to what I said earlier about 25m guilds requiring tanking 4p and exceptional raid healing to survive. The glaring things that stand out when looking at progress is seeing these exception 25m guilds that are normally top 25 in the world being ranked in the 100s and lower due to 10ms taking their place. Vigil for example is one
It really is sad to see on Blizzards part and there should be no animosty towards anybody but Blizzard. It is their fault its unbalanced, not any 10ms. And please debating this topic is fine but it gets really annoyign to read the same crap about More Battle Rezes, Less Carries etc which are completely not a factor when talking about the sheer difficulty of an encounter, in terms of how hard it is to survive while beating the enrage. Especially for top guilds that dont carry any players. Right now 25m has tougher enrages and harder survivability on several fights. Im sure people will take that as a diss when it isnt, its just how it is. Fingers crossed for some hotfixes.Last edited by Jibjabb; 2011-12-09 at 12:25 PM.
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2011-12-09, 12:44 PM #30Deleted
25's don't have higher dps requirements. You just need to stop carrying players, like 10 mans do because that would make it impossible.
Last edited by mmoc94162f50f7; 2011-12-09 at 12:50 PM.
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2011-12-09, 01:12 PM #31The Patient
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Just because more guilds killed it on 10 man does not make it easier. everyone knows that 10 man guilds popped up like crazy due to diffrent reasons, and no the only reason was not because it was easier in encounters. there is lots and lots and lots of reasons why you pick 10 man over 25:
Computer cant handle 25 man - 10 man is a better choice.
Friends - you have close friends you like to play with ingame, having more fun overall so that would be a better choice.
A 25 man guilds might suffer from the "carry people" plague (which makes it feel harder) - you choose to look elsewhere or made a own 10 man guild due to this
Alot of you can find lots of reasons why you pick 10 man over 25 man, but all people see is "10 man is easier" and i have no idea why - to be fair both sizes have diffrent encounters where this or that is harder OR easier, but it is so easy to point a finger to 10 mans so this discussion is allways brought up even after blizzard made a blue about the two difficulty's.
Also the enrage timer in t13 - you also have to look at the fact that top guilds have around 15 + staffs and rogues doing insane amount of damage, on 10 man you can hit enrage aswell even with full caster staffs and a rogue pulling 70 k dps (yes)! so to discuss the enrage you have to take into consideration with gear/classes/and so on.
In 10 man you have a limited amount of cd's overall, you cant bring all buffs or raid cd's and if you dont have this or that class you basicly have a harder time killing a boss, you cant have to many people in the roster either since you actually have to gear all up to manage the fights infront and saying that the dps needed for this or that enounter is piss easy is not really true."And the reason its hard is due to DPS checks, which are always harder in 25m. Why? Because 10m raids are by nature more diverse in terms of min/maxing and therefore their DPS check tuning is made more flexible."
Not saying any size is easier or harder, but a 25 man guild going 10 man for the lolz have no idea since you can pick all the goodie candy you have in the bag without issues, a real 10 man with around 13-14 raiders cant.I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work
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2011-12-09, 01:20 PM #32Stood in the Fire
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Lets not forget that a 25m guild with proper planning can far easily get a tank their 4pc compared to a 10 man, and this bonus trivializes a lot of the mechanics in these fights.
The damage in the fight is absurd in both modes when you pick a double damage combo. The key to the fight is avoiding this as much as possible, and if you know how to utilize the 0 damage slimes, avoiding it is quite easy in most situations, limiting your raid to one or two of the nasty combos throughout the fight.
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2011-12-09, 02:14 PM #33Deleted
The ban hammer was pretty wide, Just not many guild that YOU know about was listed. I know people who were ranked in the 1ks and 2ks who got banned.
There was alot of testing on the PTR, guilds might be lacking members it is that time of the year again.
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2011-12-09, 02:17 PM #34Pandaren Monk
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It's really hard to discuss it without the over zealous mods jumping on you, but 10 mans are really alot easier than 25's and stats just back this up.
25man yorsahj is quite brutal, aftr wiping at 9 and 5% last night ._.
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2011-12-09, 02:22 PM #35DeletedYes, in general they do. Only exception I can think of at the moment would be Bethilac. Do the math yourself. Even if you don't count in all raid buffs (which in general are quite easy to obtain all of in 10man), 10man still have lesser DPS requirements per player on standard single target fights in comparison to 25man. Originally Posted by Ardorius
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2011-12-09, 02:45 PM #36DeletedNot if you have a normal roster. Originally Posted by Funkthepunk
I know our roster is a bit of an extreme case, seeing as we don't have BL or any sp buff, or 3% damage or DI or focus magic, or even the spell crit debuff (yes, it's a shitty raid comp, at least it gives us more challenge
). But even without being as extreme as us, most 10 man guilds miss at least 1 or 2 "essential" raid buffs.
And I'm pretty sure it's been said that 10 man are not tuned for the perfect raid setup. Which means that, if you're a super hardcore 10 man guild, with 20 people in your roster, each with 2-3 geared alts, then yeah the fights will be easier than 25 man.
tl;dr: considering a perfect setup in 25 man and a perfect setup in 10 man, the 10 man heroic will be easier. Barring special cases with overtuned adds, à là Beth'tilac.
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2011-12-09, 02:57 PM #37The Patient
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Then again you are running around without even using the full potential of your professions as far as I can tell. If you raid is filled with people who do this, then yeah, it will be hard. But 10-man guilds also have a hard time if they bring slackers into the raids. Originally Posted by Nekovivie
Also, is it really THAT brutal if you are already that close to a kill? I am sure there are plenty of 10-man guilds who have experienced the same, but for some reason you seem to take it for granted that your average player is noticably better than the average player of all the 10-man guilds that has wiped sub 10% without getting a kill.
It is quite an amazing argument. "We didnt kill it on 25, some other guild, which we dont know the players in, how good they are, how many hours they spent etc killed it on 10, so it is harder on 25".Last edited by noaim; 2011-12-09 at 03:04 PM.
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2011-12-09, 03:01 PM #38DeletedYorsahj has 89 million health on 10 hc instead of the 47 million he had on ptr, so he was indeed changed. Originally Posted by rebecca191
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2011-12-09, 03:22 PM #39DeletedSo far blackhorn has been downed twice on 25 and five times on 10. Originally Posted by nadrii
Not that it says anything, but it definately show that it is more than doable.
In b4 people saying "oh, but it was downed by 25 man guild stacking ranged
1. Those guilds have almost their entire raiding core BANNED, they can't stack however they want. The players that they do stack will probably not have full gear.
2. Why can't 10 man guilds stack? You remember paragon stacking ranged on Twilight Ascendant Council, if a 25 man guild can stack in a 25 man raid, why can't 10's stack in a 10 man raid? Really? It's a matter of lack of hardcore dedication from the top 10's.
No facepalm meme on the internet is big enough for you. Originally Posted by angelblack
You do realise that the top guilds that "exploited" is not running 10 mans for the race for world first. They are running it with the characters that did not get banned, people with multiple accounts, friends and retired members. Also, they are not going 100% hardcore on it. Why would they burn themselves out on 10 man? Better to save their strenghts for next week when the real race begin.
If they were racing now, it would be like spending 16 hours a day every day on the release week on normal mode, only practicing the bosses.
The race has not begun yet.Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2011-12-09 at 03:30 PM.
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2011-12-09, 03:36 PM #40Stood in the Fire
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The number of 10man guilds is inflated by the fact that there are tons of casual 10man guilds and pugs that does 10man in comparison to 25man.
If you want a better comparison, use the number of guilds that have killed Ragnaros heroic on 10man (1455)/25man (354).
That tells us that 18,7 % of the 10man guilds who have killed Ragnaros on 10man heroic have killed Yor'sahj, while only 3,4 % of the guilds who killed Ragnaros heroic 25man, have killed Yor'sahj on 25man.
Clear imbalance between 10 and 25, it's just sad how much 10 man is easier
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