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  1. #21
    So I checked the recent logs from our 2 DS raids and I never have shadowform popping up there. So either it doesnt show it at all if you have it since you started the fight or its bugged. But my wild guess is that he simply forgot to switch in it for 60% of the fight.

  2. #22
    In regards to Lambie's post, thanks. I did forget about the fact he died right near the end and that would probably drop his end dps. The lack of re-casting DoT's I will bring to light for him as well. The shadowform comment I believe got resolved because he did indeed cast a divine hymn or hymn of hope, forget which one it was, and I think he did forget to go back into shadowform.

    I think after all these posts I am convinced now to make him get near that hit cap. Honestly though, it may just be that he forgot to go back into shadow form after casting the hymn.

    I appreciate anymore things you see wrong and the like, the more the merrier really.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    That's what I mean. Stat weights are a very touchy thing and is dependent highly on the "what you currently have". I was referring to where if you take Player's A current stats you'll arrive at X stat weights. If you reforge all your stats to match the weights there are times you will find out that the weights are once again completely different till you roll around and finally find a "happy medium".
    I'm aware of that, but if they are looking for an immediate DPS increase there is no point to mess around with the stat weights. Especially when our T13 H gear is weighting haste>crit>mastery (actually, it may have been crit>haste>mastery, it's a bit late and i don't feel like running it again)

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerieana View Post
    I guess I should mention that we did have a resto druid in the raid up until the last attempt on Ultraxion (which was the kill). It simply may have been that my lock forgot to put the DI on the shadow priest after the druid was sub'd out for the fight.

    Edit 2: Normally I have a resto druid in the raid full time. In the future, would it be a better idea for the lock to always DI the shadowpriest regardless of a resto druid being there? Same with FM, should I just give both of those to the shadow priest? My raid comp is a Pally tank, blood tank, Disc/Holy priest, Holy Pally, Resto Druid, Ele/Enhance Shaman, Unholy DK, Demo Lock and Arcane Mage.
    The resto druid may or may not need the DI depending on how he is gearing. This is because haste between their haste plateaus is the worst stat. If the druid has 2005 haste, he does not need the DI. If he has 1573 haste, then he needs DI. Usually resto druids aim for 2005 haste and the DI goes to a dps instead.

    Also, the only healer that would give 100% uptime on DI buff would be resto druid. Otherwise it would be better going to a boomkin/spriest.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerieana View Post
    In regards to Lambie's post, thanks. I did forget about the fact he died right near the end and that would probably drop his end dps. The lack of re-casting DoT's I will bring to light for him as well. The shadowform comment I believe got resolved because he did indeed cast a divine hymn or hymn of hope, forget which one it was, and I think he did forget to go back into shadowform.

    I think after all these posts I am convinced now to make him get near that hit cap. Honestly though, it may just be that he forgot to go back into shadow form after casting the hymn.
    Actually he didn't forget.

    [22:44:07.661] Ambrosiá's Shadowform fades from Ambrosiá
    [22:44:07.661] Ambrosiá gains Hymn of Hope from Ambrosiá
    [22:44:07.661] Ambrosiá casts Hymn of Hope
    [22:44:15.098] Ambrosiá gains Shadowform from Ambrosiá
    [22:44:15.098] Ambrosiá casts Shadowform
    [22:44:20.365] Ambrosiá's Hymn of Hope fades from Ambrosiá
    [22:46:25.615] Ambrosiá's Shadowform fades from Ambrosiá
    [22:46:25.912] Ambrosiá dies

    Just realized shadowform may be bugged on WOL. If u don't cast it during the fight, it doesn't count as having uptime until it drops and then is recasted. For example, if u never take it off before pull, and then kill a boss without leaving shadow form, you will have 0% uptime. So you should ignore the shadowform problem.
    Last edited by Lambie; 2011-12-11 at 10:09 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Venith View Post
    I'm aware of that, but if they are looking for an immediate DPS increase there is no point to mess around with the stat weights. Especially when our T13 H gear is weighting haste>crit>mastery (actually, it may have been crit>haste>mastery, it's a bit late and i don't feel like running it again)
    Yes, this is why I'm asking. I just did some more browsing and everywhere is stating Hit > Haste > Mastery > Crit. Crit only pulls ahead due to the T12 2pc bonus and VLC from Rag. After that Crit isn't valued so much. So I was just curious where you are getting all this information when just google and going spriest/mmo/ej all say opposite of you.

    Not arguing with you. Just really curious where you are getting all this information at because I can't find anything close.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    If it wasn't so late I'd attempt to play around with his weights and show what I'm trying to convey, but alas it's late and I'm half asleep.
    Yeah, I understand what you meant. I've had a weird mid-ground like that before but it only lasted for about one piece of new gear.

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-11 at 05:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Yes, this is why I'm asking. I just did some more browsing and everywhere is stating Hit > Haste > Mastery > Crit. Crit only pulls ahead due to the T12 2pc bonus and VLC from Rag. After that Crit isn't valued so much. So I was just curious where you are getting all this information when just google and going spriest/mmo/ej all say opposite of you.

    Not arguing with you. Just really curious where you are getting all this information at because I can't find anything close.
    Mastery and Crit have always been so close to each other anyway, never one really 'much worse' than the other. Haste was just definitely always better. I actually think that it may stem from the stacking int trinket (though I can't be sure). Since with that our shadowfiend will be absolutely BEASTLY, the crit will make it come off of CD more often. But I can't be positive, it's just me speculating

    ---

    Edit: Ah, interesting. Apparently the sims have changed a bunch since I had last ran them a few days ago. It appears that at the very end of the Tier H13, mastery pulls ahead quite a lot, higher than haste. All of our stats are weighted very high at that point in time. So, nevermind all the hullabaloo and I apologize for any inconvenience. I wonder what had changed in the simming to suddenly throw mastery so insanely far ahead.

    Nevertheless, Crit is still currently better for the person in this thread.
    Last edited by Venith; 2011-12-11 at 10:18 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Venith View Post
    Edit: Ah, interesting. Apparently the sims have changed a bunch since I had last ran them a few days ago. It appears that at the very end of the Tier H13, mastery pulls ahead quite a lot, higher than haste. All of our stats are weighted very high at that point in time. So, nevermind all the hullabaloo and I apologize for any inconvenience. I wonder what had changed in the simming to suddenly throw mastery so insanely far ahead.

    Nevertheless, Crit is still currently better for the person in this thread.
    No worries at all. I thought maybe you knew something I didn't and was gonna have to reforge all the mastery off my priest lol. Though to be honest it was nice talking about it and being able to figure out why we thought each other ways. I do agree though crit will bring shadowfiend off cooldown quicker which imo is the only main benefit. So to me (doesn't mean I'm right), it's crit for faster shadowfiend vs mastery for higher DoT damage/Mind Blast (Spike if you really need it for some reason).

    Usually though when I do my number testing I see what the BiS suggest then I gear my toon around that (in Rawr) then I begin running different simulations to get an idea of what my current weights are.

    You are also probably right on crit being better for him in his current gear, as we both agree it has a lot to do with your current gear. I'm just rather lazy and tired tonight to even test it to verify. By the way, wanted to thank you for being civil. Usually in my experience people get defensive and nasty very quickly when you suggest or question anything different than what they say and go by.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venith View Post
    And just, no... about the crit... It is not the worst stat; mastery is now (again).
    The reason why crit sims ahead for you personally is because of the fact that you are wearing 2 piece T12, 2 piece T13 and VPLC. 4 piece T12 and 4 piece T13 benefits mastery the most, hence stat weigths change depending on how your current gearing is. Of course there's a point in reforging around depending on your stat weights I guess, but it doesn't change the fact that we should be gearing towards haste and mastery in the end as they will be ahead of crit in our BiS gear setup.

  10. #30
    I disagree.
    Our Shadowpriest is our top DPS, for single target fights, and multi target fights.
    Granted he does have the legendary, but prior to him getting it, he was still pulling insane numbers on single target fights.
    Also, while DI can be a game changer, people shouldn't rely on it. It's turning into the whole mage-fm-circle-jerk situation, where they only give it to the highest DPS.
    What is "insane numbers"? 10 man or 25 man MUST be taken in consideration! In 25 man im top DPS on single targets, yes, but only because (as i said) you then have "the perfect setup" or "raidbuffs" from other calsses.

  11. #31
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    It's not hard to reach hit and haste cap. He should be able to do it easily.
    In 4.2 I played as shadow, and I noticed a huge difference in 5% hit. I jumped up quite alot on the dps just by getting the last % filled. He should do that, no matter what. There's really no excuse to not be hitcapped.

  12. #32
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    With the hit part, you never know which spell you'll miss. You could miss a DP and then hit mind blast and then lose out on the extra dmg mind blast would give if you had all your dots up. Or those 3 misses could be all mind blasts.

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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bormiirgir View Post
    What is "insane numbers"? 10 man or 25 man MUST be taken in consideration! In 25 man im top DPS on single targets, yes, but only because (as i said) you then have "the perfect setup" or "raidbuffs" from other calsses.
    Sorry for the lack of reply, went to bed. Anyways, in regards to this quote, we do have the perfect raid setup. I have every buff and debuff in the raid aside from a bleed DoT and an increase to physical damage taken debuff (both of which are applied whenever we do a 1 tank/2 healer fight though). I will ask the warlock to swap the DI to the shadowpriest and also focus magic to the shadow priest as well tonight and see how that affects his numbers. I will also ask him to get either to 6 - 6.8% hitcap as well.

    Thanks so far to all the replies so far, really helping me out here.

    Edit: Sorry, the one buff we lack is the 5% crit buff, which is only because of our shaman. On some fights we want him as enhancement and thus we lose "Elemental Oath." However, again, on fights where we 1 tank/2 heal that isn't an issue because the feral dps and frost dk cover the buffs.
    Last edited by Nerieana; 2011-12-11 at 05:11 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlot View Post
    It's not hard to reach hit and haste cap. He should be able to do it easily.
    In 4.2 I played as shadow, and I noticed a huge difference in 5% hit. I jumped up quite alot on the dps just by getting the last % filled. He should do that, no matter what. There's really no excuse to not be hitcapped.
    Not sure if you know this as you implied there was. There is no haste cap for Shadow Priest. There are no haste plateaus. The only thing with Haste and Shadow Priest is that every X% will net you an extra tick. The more you haste you have though the more your DoT's will still be sped up along with Mind Flay. With this said Haste will always be the best stat and you shouldn't "cap" it, but instead stack as much as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerieana View Post
    Edit: Sorry, the one buff we lack is the 5% crit buff, which is only because of our shaman. On some fights we want him as enhancement and thus we lose "Elemental Oath." However, again, on fights where we 1 tank/2 heal that isn't an issue because the feral dps and frost dk cover the buffs.
    I might've misunderstood this here. If you have a Feral Druid (or Fury Warrior) you will have the 5% crit even without the shaman as those two specs cover it as well. From what I am getting is you almost always have a feral druid at least? Also, just a slight suggestion if you don't always have the 5% crit.

    If you have a hunter you should have them use a wolf at that time unless they are providing another necessary buff. Hunters are there to "fill the void" per say on whatever you are missing buff wise as they can bring practically any buff to the table. Their slight loss in dps (pending on what type of pet used) is more than made up by everyone else getting a boosted dps. We use to not have the 8% Magic Debuff till we had a hunter get a serpent. His dps dropped by 600 (due to loss of pet cooldowns), but everyone else in the raid jumped up 800-1k each.
    Last edited by Lucetia; 2011-12-11 at 06:36 PM.

  15. #35
    Ya, at the moment that last buff is kind of difficult to maintain when we run 2 tanks/3 healers. I can have the shaman go elemental and thus have 4 ranged DPS and 1 melee and thus get the 5% crit to the raid. The other option is keeping him enhancement, giving the 10% melee haste to himself and the unholy DK, but not providing the crit buff.

    Now that I type that out it would make more sense to keep him elemental to provide the crit buff for the whole raid, rather than just buff 1 melee dps. The only issue with that is I'd be ranged heavy and have another mana user (which isn't fun on Yor'shaj since more DPS who need mana to dps means shitty DPS during the mana void phase. Enhancement shamans are great there because they can regain the mana they lost very easily and keep DPS'ing)

    Edit: For clarification this is my raid set-up:

    Blood DK (Frost DK for 1 tank fights), Prot Pally, Holy/Disc Priest, Resto Druid (Feral for 2 Healer fights), Holy Pally, Demo/Aff/Destro Lock (He can do all 3), Ele/Enhancement Shaman, Arcane/Fire Mage, Shadowpriest and Unholy DK.
    Last edited by Nerieana; 2011-12-11 at 07:38 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by knumskul View Post
    The resto druid may or may not need the DI depending on how he is gearing. This is because haste between their haste plateaus is the worst stat. If the druid has 2005 haste, he does not need the DI. If he has 1573 haste, then he needs DI. Usually resto druids aim for 2005 haste and the DI goes to a dps instead.

    Also, the only healer that would give 100% uptime on DI buff would be resto druid. Otherwise it would be better going to a boomkin/spriest.
    I've seen more druids go for the 1573 mark, mostly in guilds that have both a lock and a 5% haste buff in the raid. If the OP/RL decides to make them switch this set up, make sure you inform the druid that he'll need to get up to 2005 rating. It shouldn't be difficult with all the new gear available, and it may be easily fixed with reforging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Not sure if you know this as you implied there was. There is no haste cap for Shadow Priest. There are no haste plateaus. The only thing with Haste and Shadow Priest is that every X% will net you an extra tick. The more you haste you have though the more your DoT's will still be sped up along with Mind Flay. With this said Haste will always be the best stat and you shouldn't "cap" it, but instead stack as much as possible.
    While the first half of this is correct, that does not guarantee that haste will always be the best stat. The set bonuses can have a huge effect on the value for mastery. While it wouldn't be such a gain that you'd reforge out of haste for mastery, it would make you reforge any extra hit/spirit/crit to mastery in place of haste. It would also affect your boot enchant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerieana View Post
    Ya, at the moment that last buff is kind of difficult to maintain when we run 2 tanks/3 healers. I can have the shaman go elemental and thus have 4 ranged DPS and 1 melee and thus get the 5% crit to the raid. The other option is keeping him enhancement, giving the 10% melee haste to himself and the unholy DK, but not providing the crit buff.
    Why not get the shammy to go ele but drop windfury totem?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    I've seen more druids go for the 1573 mark, mostly in guilds that have both a lock and a 5% haste buff in the raid. If the OP/RL decides to make them switch this set up, make sure you inform the druid that he'll need to get up to 2005 rating. It shouldn't be difficult with all the new gear available, and it may be easily fixed with reforging.

    While the first half of this is correct, that does not guarantee that haste will always be the best stat. The set bonuses can have a huge effect on the value for mastery. While it wouldn't be such a gain that you'd reforge out of haste for mastery, it would make you reforge any extra hit/spirit/crit to mastery in place of haste. It would also affect your boot enchant.
    Well, its up to guilds how they want to utilise their DIs. But like you said, with all the new gear available it shouldn't ge hard to hit 2005 so the DI can go to dps. Or the druid can just stop picking up haste gear
    Last edited by knumskul; 2011-12-12 at 12:03 PM.

  18. #38
    There have been a lot of very good things listed in this post that your shadow priest can do differently to improve their dps. I just want to mention that this is only the second week of the new raid. I don't know if you ran on the PTR or how many attempts you've done on this boss. Being able to fine tune a fight takes time. I'm still learning when to use my CDs and having to cycle my mana and healing hymn for the healers, both of which stop me from doing DPS. Also, depending how many times he got Fading Light will also affect his DPS. I don't have the luxury of a warlock in my 10 man raid for DI, but I think I got Fading light almost every single time on our last attempt. I only did 29k dps with a lot higher gear. I know that number is quite low for me and what I can do, but every fight and attempt are different. Maybe I got really unlucky on shadow orb procs one attempt, maybe I got a lot of crits on another....all of these things will affect the outcome. If the boss dies, it doesn't really matter 1-2k dps, because it will always fluctuate.

  19. #39
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    I'm not gonna jump into the whole Crit vs Mastery debate. but IT seems your priest has made some changes to his gear but some of his changes haven't been the best or correct changes:
    shoulders: I would switch his reforge, reforge out of the crit instead of the mastery.
    MH: reforge crit into mastery
    Wand: reforge the spirit into mastery, not crit
    Hands: Reforge the crit into Mastery
    Belt: reforge the crit into mastery
    Legs: reforge the crit into haste, dont reforge out of mastery
    Also, I will assume that since others have gone over the WOL, that it appears they are using the right rotation.
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  20. #40
    I noticed a couple other things looking at their gear. They are wearing the wrong Avengers of Hyjal cloak. They should be wearing the hit haste cloak until they can buy the new 397 spirit haste VP cloak. If a piece of gear doesn't have haste on it, you typically always want to forge into haste on that piece of gear. Pieces with haste crit, or haste mastery are the ones where you will make up your hit as needed reforging the crit or mastery to spirit. They bought the spirit crit wrists and should reforge the crit to haste, not to hit. I would make up that hit by forging the crit on the gloves to spirit, or belt, or changing the wand reforge, whichever option gets them closer to the hit cap. They should be able to get closer to the cap if they play with those values a bit more. This person is a human, you get more hit out of forging to spirit due to the spirit bonus racial than reforging to straight hit.

    I would farm End Time for the spirit haste shoulders and the spirit haste helm over the crit mastery and spirit mastery ones they are wearing now, at least until they can get their hands on T13 tokens.

    Just to add my 2 cents to the crit/mastery discussion, at this particular gear and play level....it probably won't matter either way. Crit will be more inconsistent in the long run, just due to the inherent RNG nature, so I would suggest going for mastery at this point. When you get to higher gear levels later in the tier, when their gear is more stable, it would be a good time to run a sim and find out exact stat weights. Right now I just think there are much larger DPS gains that can be seen in other places, like using Volcano potions(!!) or tightening up their rotation and CD usage. With their gear hopefully changing in the coming weeks with new upgrades, it's just not worth it, because the stat weights could potentially change with each piece. Best of luck to you guys!
    Last edited by Sakamae; 2011-12-13 at 05:36 PM.

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