Thread: 8 or 16mans?

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by JustintimeSS View Post
    No. I'll use the same sport since you want to nitpick and not see the forest for the trees.

    11 people in NFL kicking ass are not any better as a team than 8 people in arena football kicking ass.

    Better?
    Arena football is about as close to NFL football as go-kart racing is to Nascar. Should we treat Go-kart racers at the boardwalk the same as we treat Nascar drivers? In your example are Arena football players at all regarded the same way that NFL players are?

    I stand by my reasoning, if you down something on 8-man on nightmare difficulty, you still did something that most people wouldn't be able to do and you should feel good, but if a 16-man guild does it after you and has the title "First 16-man raid to down such-and-such boss" you should not feel slighted because their feat was greater than your own.
    Last edited by Atoj; 2011-12-12 at 03:13 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by JustintimeSS View Post
    No. I'll use the same sport since you want to nitpick and not see the forest for the trees.

    11 people in NFL kicking ass are not any better as a team than 8 people in arena football kicking ass.

    Better?
    I would have preferred you use Canadian football so that we could make fun of our northern cousins. C'est la vie.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Encarn View Post
    I would have preferred you use Canadian football so that we could make fun of our northern cousins. C'est la vie.
    Totally reported for Canadian bashing!

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Atoj View Post
    I stand by my reasoning, if you down something on 8-man on nightmare difficulty, you still did something that most people wouldn't be able to do and you should feel good, but if a 16-man guild does it after you and has the title "First 16-man raid to down such-and-such boss" you should not feel slighted because their feat was greater than your own.
    How was it greater? That is my point. Please validate how it's greater so I can understand it better.



  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by JustintimeSS View Post
    The thing is, it became that way because of wow. WoW 25 man guilds had 25 man gear, then went into 10 mans with 25 man gear on and smoked the place and then reported to the community that 10 man raids were easy mode. And the fallacy was born.
    like rag 10 hc and rag 25 hc huh, maybe theres some fact in it, but 10mans dont like to believe 10 is easier just call 25man QQrs while floating down that river of denial

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    like rag 10 hc and rag 25 hc huh, maybe theres some fact in it, but 10mans dont like to believe 10 is easier just call 25man QQrs while floating down that river of denial
    No. And you can't take a small section out of a whole conversation and then start another conversation about it. That is a technique known as the strawman.
    I stated quite clearly before in this very thread (conversation) that I quit wow after the first two cata raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustintimeSS View Post
    I played since vanilla release (like before dire maul) and quit two months after clearing cata release raids.



  7. #47
    High Overlord
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    Back on topic ...

    We'll probably be rolling 8man raiding, but not out of necessity. My raid team transferring to SWTOR is small and perfectly composed to do 8mans. Works out quite nicely!
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  8. #48
    Remember guys: who cares what is going on in WoW! WoW started off with 40mans... which gave everyone the mindset that bigger is better. It was dropped to 25mans. When they opened up 10mans, everyone looked at 10s as 'inferior' because it wasn't the biggest.

    SWTOR is starting off with both 8 and 16. It gives people the options to do it. Hell, since most fights in the first operation only require one tank IN 16MAN. So 1 tank in 8 mans... and 1 tank in 16mans (mostly..). That means 16mans will have more dps off the bat. If we're looking at these settings for strictly 'what is easier/harder', it appears that 16mans are slighted in the easier direction because of the current ratios.

    However none of this matters. I for one think that if you do something before another raid group - you are better. Whether its 8 or 16. I'm tired of this 'aww its hard to organize more people!' Well you chose to do so. Sorry.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by JustintimeSS View Post
    How was it greater? That is my point. Please validate how it's greater so I can understand it better.
    I am not going to repeat everything I've already said in the thread simply because you didn't read it the first time. Instead I will draw another comparison.

    Your argument is 8-man is no different than 16-man because each raid is balanced for each size. 8-man raids have very difficult content for 8 people to pull off and 16-man raids have very difficult raids for 16 people to pull off. In that respect you are correct, 8-mans don't deserve the "easy-mode" stigma they possess and a lot of that is propagated through WoW's (imo) "flawed" design to make 10-mans simple and drop lower quality gear. HOWEVER, imagine this scenario. Bioware has 3 sized raids, 16-man, 8-man, and Solo. Solo is balanced for 1 player to solo the raid content because after all, "Why should MMO's require you to work together anymore, amirite?" (/sarcasm) In this hypothetical world your argument supports that the person who works by himself to down content on the single-man version of the riad should receive just as much accolades as the 8 and 16 man versions of the raids and if they get server first boss kills they earned them because the content was balanced for 1-person to do it and it really is still very difficult. My answer to this would be "no f'ing way". 1 Person working by themselves to down content is simply not equal to 8 people downing content. The direct conclusion from that admission is that 8 people downing content is not equal to 16 people downing content. It's a completely different experience all together. The epic scale of 16 people working together when compared to 8 justly deserves the recognition it gets, and 8-man raids will be pushed aside as only "semi-serious" because they have elected on their own volition to exclude themselves from the epic-scaled version of the raid.

    Does this mean the hypothetical solo person isn't a good player? No.

    Does this mean the hypothetical solo person couldn't do well on an 8 or 16 man scale? No.

    But that solo person has no right to bitch about how he isn't taken quite as seriously as the groups who raid on a bigger scale.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    Remember guys: who cares what is going on in WoW! WoW started off with 40mans... which gave everyone the mindset that bigger is better. It was dropped to 25mans. When they opened up 10mans, everyone looked at 10s as 'inferior' because it wasn't the biggest.

    SWTOR is starting off with both 8 and 16. It gives people the options to do it. Hell, since most fights in the first operation only require one tank IN 16MAN. So 1 tank in 8 mans... and 1 tank in 16mans (mostly..). That means 16mans will have more dps out of the bat. If we're looking at these settings for strictly 'what is easier/harder', it appears that 16mans are slighted in the easier direction because of the current ratios.

    However none of this matters. I for one think that if you do something before another raid group - you are better. Whether its 8 or 16. I'm tired of this 'aww its hard to organize more people!' Well you chose to do so. Sorry.
    Exactly my point. Being that difficulty and gear are equal, I don't see how size of the group makes a completed raid "greater".

    My whole point, starting from the beginning - using wow as the core example because it was the bad seed, was that the elitism started to spread because of gear differential. This created a rift that could never be healed because from that point on, 10 man would be considered less difficult. Coupling that with 25 man players in 25 man gear defeating 10 man HM content and then reporting to the eager community that it was easier put the nail in the coffin.

    Now you're looking at faceless, blind followers (not all mind you) who will fight tooth and nail to keep this elitism intact because they enjoy the feel of being superior.

    Fast forward to swtor. Gear advantage and difficulty are apparently equivalent which leaves only one difference in raids - size. Size, to me at least, doesn't dictate difficulty other than collecting them up. 8 people performing in harmony are not any less skilled than 16 people doing the same. Both groups are equally skilled and deserve equal honors for success.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancestorTOR View Post
    Back on topic ...

    We'll probably be rolling 8man raiding, but not out of necessity. My raid team transferring to SWTOR is small and perfectly composed to do 8mans. Works out quite nicely!
    We were on topic mate, you are the one off topic if one was taken to slighting another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    I guess the title was pretty general. No I am not asking what you are going to run. What I am asking is- if the general community of SWTOR is going to look at 8/16man Operations in SWTOR like they did for 10/25mans in WoW.




  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by JustintimeSS View Post
    Size, to me at least, doesn't dictate difficulty other than collecting them up. 8 people performing in harmony are not any less skilled than 16 people doing the same. Both groups are equally skilled and deserve equal honors for success.
    They may not be any less skilled, but they had an easier experience presented to them by only requiring 8 people to work in harmony as compared to requiring 16 people to work in harmony. Getting 8 people to work in harmony IS EASIER!

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustintimeSS View Post
    We were on topic mate, you are the one off topic if one was taken to slighting another.
    Oh, my bad. Well, back to your digital penis measuring contest then.
    SCUM AND VILLAINY
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Atoj View Post
    They may not be any less skilled, but they had an easier experience presented to them by only requiring 8 people to work in harmony as compared to requiring 16 people to work in harmony. Getting 8 people to work in harmony IS EASIER!
    And that's the thread! Thanks for coming out folks.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Atoj View Post
    I am not going to repeat everything I've already said in the thread simply because you didn't read it the first time. Instead I will draw another comparison.

    Your argument is 8-man is no different than 16-man because each raid is balanced for each size. 8-man raids have very difficult content for 8 people to pull off and 16-man raids have very difficult raids for 16 people to pull off. In that respect you are correct, 8-mans don't deserve the "easy-mode" stigma they possess and a lot of that is propagated through WoW's (imo) "flawed" design to make 10-mans simple and drop lower quality gear. HOWEVER, imagine this scenario. Bioware has 3 sized raids, 16-man, 8-man, and Solo. Solo is balanced for 1 player to solo the raid content because after all, "Why should MMO's require you to work together anymore, amirite?" (/sarcasm) In this hypothetical world your argument supports that the person who works by himself to down content on the single-man version of the riad should receive just as much accolades as the 8 and 16 man versions of the raids and if they get server first boss kills they earned them because the content was balanced for 1-person to do it and it really is still very difficult. My answer to this would be "no f'ing way". 1 Person working by themselves to down content is simply not equal to 8 people downing content. The direct conclusion from that admission is that 8 people downing content is not equal to 16 people downing content. It's a completely different experience all together. The epic scale of 16 people working together when compared to 8 justly deserves the recognition it gets, and 8-man raids will be pushed aside as only "semi-serious" because they have elected on their own volition to exclude themselves from the epic-scaled version of the raid.

    Does this mean the hypothetical solo person isn't a good player? No.

    Does this mean the hypothetical solo person couldn't do well on an 8 or 16 man scale? No.

    But that solo person has no right to bitch about how he isn't taken quite as seriously as the groups who raid on a bigger scale.
    I see the entrapment before I even write it.

    I say well solo isn't as difficult as working with other people because playing as a team increases difficulty.

    To which you reply - well then 16 would be more difficult than 8.

    Trapped me up good!

    I still do not see how 8 more people defeating equally difficult bosses are considered greater. Again I ask, is this defined by there being 8 more people skillfully playing together? So in the end we are saying the size of the group in synchronization is all we us to base who is greater off of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atoj View Post
    They may not be any less skilled, but they had an easier experience presented to them by only requiring 8 people to work in harmony as compared to requiring 16 people to work in harmony. Getting 8 people to work in harmony IS EASIER!
    Thanks bud, we can end this conversation here. I politely withdrawal and walk away whistling.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancestorTOR View Post
    Oh, my bad. Well, back to your digital penis measuring contest then.
    Dont get upset, you slighted our conversation as if it was somehow off topic. I simply brought it to your attention that it was not. No harm meant.



  15. #55
    On the flip-side I will argue that you can have a number that is so big that is also loses legitimacy if not properly balanced. If raid's suddenly accounted for 100 people, but 50 of those people could stand in fire and slam their faces on the keyboard that wouldn't be as legitimate as an 8-man team who at least required those 8 people to all be performing at an elite level. That was the problem with Vanilla's 40 mans. You may have required 40 people to be in the raid, but only 25-30 of them needed to know what they were doing. I remember a guild back in Vanilla who would pug 7 random people through Naxx every single week. They only needed 33 people to complete the instance successfully, and would make the 7 puggers pay some astronomical amount of gold to experience the raid with them, which they would then split among their raiders. That is a flawed design and needs to be avoided.

  16. #56
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    ill try to enjoy the content , its the first time im gonna play SW ToR so no rush.

    But i think 16man could be more fun for a guild

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by JustintimeSS View Post
    So in the end we are saying the size of the group in synchronization is all we us to base who is greater off of?
    Yes
    P.S. Sound logic =/= trapping you. Unless you need to be trapped into thinking reasonably.
    Last edited by Atoj; 2011-12-12 at 04:01 AM.

  18. #58
    It really doesn't matter how large the raids are, it all depends on how the raids are tuned. In WOW, the larger raids require greater coordination, but they tend to be more forgiving. Losing 1 person in a 10 man tends to hurt a lot more than losing 1 in the 25man. Granted, its not true across the board, but it does seem to be true in general.

  19. #59
    dont they also have 24 mans?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet1519 View Post
    dont they also have 24 mans?
    Nope, only 8 or 16 for operations. I think you can group up to 24 for the world bosses.

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