Hours spent raiding --Top Guilds--

[PetersenIII]

It's obvious that you miss the point. The other guilds hours per boss would be better than yours because they didn't need more gear to do it or more time. It's infinitely harder to kill bosses without knowing the fights? Well frankly isn't that the point of going in and learning it? Your right killing ultra in week 1 is different than week 3, those that killed it the first week are better than your team thus they did it at a faster (HPB). However that is assuming you don't even try the fight and sit on prior bosses to "gear up" for it which the top end guilds don't do, it's full steam ahead every single night regardless.

According to most people, no. That's not the point at all. See Dungeon journal. See DBM. See needing their hand held and strategies explained in the simplest possible terms. If you don't know the fight GTFO. God forbid we actually observe and figure out things on our own, we might 'waste time' and 'waste gold' with 'pointless wipes' then.

[Maximus4004]

Your logic is a little flawed.

It matters not how many times they wipe, this is not a time trial.

All that matters in this scenario is who kill sit first and usually the 25 man Heroic killl carries a little more 'cred'.

On your logic, the fact that once these guilds have downed the encounter they raid far far less hours than the 100's of other guilds that are still progressing on it is irrelevant because they choose to invest their time more heavily at the start of the tier.

In 2 months time, Paragon etc will be raiding 4-5 hours a week.

I'm sorry but the whole line of "They only do it til they get world first" is completely irrelevant. If a boss takes 40 hours for one guild to do and 30 hours for another guild to do with similar item levels than the 30 hour guild is more skilled I don't care if guild 40 hours did it 10 hours beforehand.

---------- Post added 2011-12-12 at 09:06 PM ----------

According to most people, no. That's not the point at all. See Dungeon journal. See DBM. See needing their hand held and strategies explained in the simplest possible terms. If you don't know the fight GTFO. God forbid we actually observe and figure out things on our own, we might 'waste time' and 'waste gold' with 'pointless wipes' then.

If anything it seems like WoW has given the players the same information to everyone, that's a level playing field.

[Tartcart]

If you truly were the more skilled player you wouldn't "require" the said gear though, see my point?[COLOR="red"]

Trust me, the gear makes a difference as does the muscle memory. If you want to make a comment like that, down the new raid with blues. There's only so much "skill" can do with a wack-a-mole system of slamming down buttons and adjusting to variables such as dumb ass #1 stood in fire and dumb ass #18 took aggro. These world firsts, takes tons of time and near perfection with great amount of PTR research.

[Maximus4004]

Trust me, the gear makes a difference as does the muscle memory. If you want to make a comment like that, down the new raid with blues. There's only so much "skill" can do with a wack-a-mole system of slamming down buttons and adjusting to variables such as dumb ass #1 stood in fire and dumb ass #18 took aggro. These world firsts, takes tons of time and near perfection with great amount of PTR research.

And that kind of time and research is probably invested in by all of the top guilds. And I never said that gear didn't make a difference simply that the more skilled of the two guilds wouldn't need that gear TO make the difference.

[Exiztence]

And that kind of time and research is probably invested in by all of the top guilds. And I never said that gear didn't make a difference simply that the more skilled of the two guilds wouldn't need that gear TO make the difference.

Try doing 2 meteors with 1 reset worth gear or 2 resets worth gear, it's day and night.

[Zephh]

Haha, didn't even know members of top guilds even browsed MMO Champ forums

Your a dumbass...there not celebs there players Just like you and me of course there gonna use the Most used Forum/website

[Deleted]

My guild has spent around 22h the from Wednesday to Monday to get 6/8 heroic down. But Spine looks so sick, we didn't want to try it further.

[theburned]

My guild has spent around 22h the from Wednesday to Monday to get 6/8 heroic down. But Spine looks so sick, we didn't want to try it further.

well that's not the spirit to get things done is it?
go ahead now and beat that boss!

[Deleted]

Hello, I know this is off the topic. But since I havent done 10 post's yet. I can't PM you.

Theres a guy in our guild claiming to have been in method for a longer period.
Callí - Warrior. From the UK

Please respond if you feel like it

[Maximus4004]

Try doing 2 meteors with 1 reset worth gear or 2 resets worth gear, it's day and night.

Logically if the difference was so drastic you wouldn't expect either guild to be capable thus leading to the same even platform both guilds back at H Rag with a reset worth of gear. If the first guild didn't need that reset they theoretically spent less hours on the boss since they didn't need that reset. But if the difference is day and night both guilds are back on hrag with a reset worth of gear adding up similar amounts of hours. This method only fail when guilds that ignore H rag and farm gear(the top guilds don't shy away from bosses blaming gear however). Hell you could use a Raid Instance timer to make that determination guild A spent 300 Hours in FL guild B spent 200 Hours in FL who's better? Guild B since they only needed 200 hours, however the community gives all the praise to guild A since they did it first EVEN though they needed another 100 hours that they were able to put in before guild B.

---------- Post added 2011-12-12 at 09:27 PM ----------

Hell wow even kind of hinted at this system see "tribute to mad skill" you know the one where your not allowed to wipe? Meaning those that could do the instance and not wipe had mad skill. Everyone had an even shot at the achieve but there was a first guild to complete it, those guys were the best and most skilled in that patch, hell they were even awarded the "mad skill" achieve before everyone else.

---------- Post added 2011-12-12 at 09:28 PM ----------

Hello, I know this is off the topic. But since I havent done 10 post's yet. I can't PM you.

Theres a guy in our guild claiming to have been in method for a longer period.
Callí - Warrior. From the UK

Please respond if you feel like it

I'm really not sure who your trying to direct this to?

[Maefor]

I'm sorry but the whole line of "They only do it til they get world first" is completely irrelevant. If a boss takes 40 hours for one guild to do and 30 hours for another guild to do with similar item levels than the 30 hour guild is more skilled I don't care if guild 40 hours did it 10 hours beforehand.

---------- Post added 2011-12-12 at 09:06 PM ----------



If anything it seems like WoW has given the players the same information to everyone, that's a level playing field.

This is partially true..... but you have to keep every factor in mind before comparing skill between players, or even guilds. Let me give you an easy example:

Paragon said it took them about 500-600 wipes to kill Ragnaros on heroic mode. It took my guild 241 wipes to kill Ragnaros on heroic mode. Are we a better guild than Paragon?

They struggled to reach the 2 meteor DPS check, cut down to 3 heals, and still struggled to make it. By the time we got to heroic ragnaros, most of my guild DPSers were rocking mostly 391s, the 2 meteor check was never an issue for us. Skill can only get you so far. Players min / max, you prioritize rotations based around movement when you have to, etc. But gear is one of the biggest tools for progression. This is why top end guilds have ridiculous complex plans on the first week of a new tier to farm normal with 4-5 different raids, splitting groups in a specific way to maximize gear before they stack all the mains in 1 major group.

When my guild first killed Cho'gall on normal mode the first or second week of cataclysm, rocking mostly greens & blues, our highest DPSer was doing about 17k. Now on Ultraxion heroic everybody does 30-40k. To put things in perspective, from 340ilvl to 391 ilvl, my guild's DPS output has doubled.

1 extra lockout of gear is huge, specially when you go from 391 to 410 gear. It makes or breaks fights like Ultraxion, Spine of Deathwing, etc.

To summarize, skill, min / maxing matters a lot. But in the end, top guilds have to put so much time, because they are severely undergeared when they do the content. If you give a top end guild their 4p, and a bunch of 410 gear, and put them in front of heroic spine of deathwing, it would take them a lot less to defeat that encounter.

[YumYum]

If that was the metric by which world firsts are decided a shit ton of guilds would just make a mirror alt-guild, practice the encounter to death and then one-two shot them on their mains.

[Draenox]

During these progress times, we raid 15 hours a week, but by time we get a bit more familiar with the fights we go back to our 9 hours/week raiding schedule.

We're only 2/8 hc atm though so don't know if that really counts :<

[Hakto]

Try doing 2 meteors with 1 reset worth gear or 2 resets worth gear, it's day and night.

Using logic to counter pointless arguments is wasted. (unfortunately)

[nadrii]

Pretty clear no one here actually raids or knows anyone who does raid in a well ranked guild.

[cleotaurus]

You can break it down into categories. I would say the ranking among top 50 is ultimately determined by the skill of the guild. They are all probably raiding obscene amounts of hours, and they are all really good players, but getting world firsts requires diagnosing a workable strategy which is probably the hardest part. Then you have the second tier guilds, maybe like 50-500? who probably all have really good players, but their ranks will likely be sorted by the amount of time invested per week, since it is likely you can just copy the strat done by x guild, and getting it down is just a matter of executing it properly, which is a function of time. Outside of that then its really about how many good players are in the guild since that's when the carrying begins, and the ranks are sorted by how many people are getting carried through content.

[Deleted]

You can break it down into categories. I would say the ranking among top 50 is ultimately determined by the skill of the guild. They are all probably raiding obscene amounts of hours, and they are all really good players.

There are quite a lot guilds in top 100 even top 50 that raid 25hours a week and no more. Would not call that obscene.

[cleotaurus]

I would. Raiding that amounts to a part time job? Most guilds raid ~4 hours per day 3 days per week. 25 is more than double that.

[DraconusIX]

It is amazing how many wipes a little bit of information can prevent. Time matters more then number of wipes in my opinion. Still, I would love to see a ToGC type raid again.

[UunaPriest]

If you truly were the more skilled player you wouldn't "require" the said gear though, see my point?[COLOR="red"]

Because Heroic Deathwing can be killed in greens?