Blood Death Knights doing ultimate crits as tank.. what the hell?!

[Jpwojcik]

I don't even get what the point of vengeance is anymore. If I remember correctly it was originally created so that tanks could contribute reasonable dps in raids while doing less damage in pvp to counteract their higher survivability. With the changes to vengeance, they'd be better off adding the damage as base damage to the abilities, or better yet, removing it since you don't need vengeance to hold threat.

[winkysmnm]

The way to beat a blood DK in pvp as a warrior is as follows...Charge-rend-CS-Throwdown-reck-MS-OP-Slam-walk away-piercing howl-charge-disarm-do more damage while disarmed...Only way to beat them is to damage and then run and damage and run. Trying to go toe to toe with him is just dumb. You have good mobility against a blood compared to frost so take advantage of that...

[elderamy]

Which was made for tanking purposes, not PvP. It's a poorly designed feature that makes tanks killing machines in the PvP.

its a mechanic like all others... so many stuff that was designed for PVE that fits poorly on PVP...
tbh very few melles and by these, i mean warriors, should have problems with dks on 1v1

[MrWolly]

As a melee class, blood DKs are difficult to take down. Ranged are the ones that are more suited for them.

[PenguinChan]

Soothe the tank. Don't hit the tank. Ignore the tank. Only go for the tank when he's the last one or just dawdles off into the distance to go somewhere else. For god sakes; play smart and derage the tank or don't hit him. Giving free vengeance stacks to a tank is the stupidest thing you could ever do. Don't solo a blood DK as a melee either. Prot paladin is similar, warriors are as well. This just makes them more viable to kill people who don't counter them. Derp.

[Minky]

And you think even a semi-competent DK is going to sit there and let you kite him? Even Blood has strong anti-kiting tools, it's just part of the DK kit.

Like I said, put some videos up. Show us that your DK isn't making idiotic mistakes.

And then show us how good you are by beating him with a Warrior, and then beat him with an Enhancement Shaman. Since you've managed to read a tooltip, you can clearly beat them without even trying now, right?

PremedGarrote
Build to 5, Kidney. If IBF, Blind. If Trinket, Vanish. Cloak off diseases if they exist. If LoS nearby, Sprint rather than vanish, restealth.
Premed, wait until 18s elapse, recuperate.
PremedAmbush Kidneyshot Shadowdance Damage trinket Spambush. Cheap at the end. Dismantle. After dismantle, sprint away. Death grip? Gouge(Have fast connection)before DS.9 times out of 10 it goes off before he can DS.
move away from them. Kite until Dance up again(easy as Rogue).
Gouge every Grip.
They will be around 40% after your spambushes, then back to 60% due to Rune Tap when Dance is up.
Step to them, Kidney. If trinket, Blind. If no trinket, dance spambush. Dismantle at the end of it. Gouge off dismantle, sprint to LoS if you can.

Keep doing this and they will die. You heal more than them if you keep them off you.


It's not hard to beat them when you think about how their abilities work.
Lastly, show me all of the top 3v3 and 5v5er DKs playing Blood. Before you bring up RBGs: If tank specs don't do well there, then they're essentially just for PvE. Tanks shine in RBGs, and are still killable.

I resort back to my "Be less awful" point.

Edit:If you're feeling trolly and it's just a duel, equip 2 damage trinkets. Blood DKs have nothing you need to trinket aside from CoI, and that's not really an issue for you if you're doin' it right =P
Edit2:I still have to try to win. If I'm not trying, I'm stomping scrubs like you. WHOOOOAH DID I JUST SAY -THAT- OUT LOUD!?
m^^m

[elderamy]

PremedGarrote
Build to 5, Kidney. If IBF, Blind. If Trinket, Vanish. Cloak off diseases if they exist. If LoS nearby, Sprint rather than vanish, restealth.
Premed, wait until 18s elapse, recuperate.
PremedAmbush Kidneyshot Shadowdance Damage trinket Spambush. Cheap at the end. Dismantle. After dismantle, sprint away. Death grip? Gouge(Have fast connection)before DS.9 times out of 10 it goes off before he can DS.
move away from them. Kite until Dance up again(easy as Rogue).
Gouge every Grip.
They will be around 40% after your spambushes, then back to 60% due to Rune Tap when Dance is up.
Step to them, Kidney. If trinket, Blind. If no trinket, dance spambush. Dismantle at the end of it. Gouge off dismantle, sprint to LoS if you can.

Keep doing this and they will die. You heal more than them if you keep them off you.


It's not hard to beat them when you think about how their abilities work.
Lastly, show me all of the top 3v3 and 5v5er DKs playing Blood. Before you bring up RBGs: If tank specs don't do well there, then they're essentially just for PvE. Tanks shine in RBGs, and are still killable.

I resort back to my "Be less awful" point.

Yeah, I can solo a warr/rogue team by myself i n lower ratings but I get trashed by competent rogues on higher brackets, hardly touch ranged and cant make a healer expend more mana than they can regen... blood in arena is a fail and can't really understand how people complain when frost and unholy are sooooooooo much better...

and yes when I see a blood dk as frost its a sure win...

[Deleted]

vengeance stack. I dont believe ur attacks crit for 4-12k with cs up because their dmg migitation isnt that good.

[Racerover]

Tell you what, I made a blood spec just for the hell of it yesterday and did a few bgs. I defended farm by myself against 3 well geared melee without breaking a sweat. 40k Death Strikes are LOL. It's not even fair when I have 17k AP from vengeance up. Its fun, but horrible against any decent caster.

[P4R45171K]

Only 25K? They aren't doing it right.

[Super Kami Dende]

The amount of BAD in these "ZOMG NERF DK NAO" threads is immense.

First I see posts of Warriors charging headlong into Combat with Blood Dks in BG's instead of letting other people kill it (and actually making it easier for the Dk to survive people killing it by giving it free heals), than I also read Rogues and Hunters talking about getting Crit for huge numbers, when they should stop being bad and Actually Shiv/Tranq their veng off.

Also a good Dk of any other spec Unholy/Frost can kill a Blood very easily, as necrotic strike basically fucks blood in the ass.

Pro-Tip, this game isn't balanced around 1v1 or 2v2, If you are a melee don't try and kill a tank that is meant to be able to take punches to the face from raid-bosses.

Idiocy, Idiocy everywhere.

[Racerover]

So you're saying not to get into the face of a blood dk but to stack necrotic? Pot...kettle, anyone? As frost, the only way I've found to go toe to toe with a blood dk is to spam chains and HB then pop cooldowns after using strangulate on them. Unholy would have an easier time probably. Case and point, if the blood DK is targeting you, make it a point to get some range and let anyone else around you attack them from behind as you kite. Killing them easy? Hardly, as any melee class.

[Adrim]

I play Blood DK and always have. A bad Blood DK will beat anyone but the most extremely skilled melee players. A good Blood DK will never lose, period. Read what Minky wrote and consider the likelihood of pulling that off over and over without a single mistake. And considering a DK can interrupt that flow at any time with a) trinket and b) AMS to prevent harmful effects and c) IBF stun immunity.

There's a dozen mechanics that I haven't even seen mentioned yet in this thread yet, so the news only gets worse. Lichborne+Death Coil healing. with 130 runic you can get 4 coils out and get back 60% of health. Can only be countered by a Pally's quick Turn Evil (Lichborne lasts longer than a silence). Will of the Necropolis is a free instant RuneTap coupled with a 50% reduction to ALL damage. A good Blood DK will use RuneTap to heal at 40% and immediately get another one if someone tries to burst.

Ghoul sacrifice is virtually impossible to counter. You'd have to silence the DK to prevent him from casting Death Pact and then burst down the ghoul before it was up. You won't succeed and that's another 40% heal right there.

IBF makes a DK rogue-proof long enough to get a couple Death Strikes. And if a DK is sitting on a comfortable amount of health, he can switch to Necrotic Strikes. Guess what? No Recup or Second Wind or Word of Glory for you. In fact, it actually gets leeched to heal the DK.

Oh and let's not forget a good Blood DK will chain his best heals with Vampiric Blood which, when glyphed, is a 40% boost to all of the above mentioned heals.

You can't kite either. Death Coil and ghoul pet harassment is enough to keep you from bandaging or whatever. Chains of Ice and Death Grip keep you within at least spitting distance.

DKs spent years being called the worst tanks, the shieldless tanks, the new kid on the block nobody likes, all baddies because apparently if you didn't level from 1-55 you had no clue how to play the game (nevermind you couldn't roll a DK until you'd leveled a toon to 55). So well, good for Blood DKs finally getting something to be happy about. You all forget the insanity that was Frost DK with 20% healing per Death Strike. That was well and truly over the top and deserved a nerf.

But Blood was designed to live. We are the only 2H weapon tanks so of course we are going to hit hard. But as Blizzard has said time and time again, the game was never balanced 1v1. If you want to take down a Blood DK, bring a friend.

[dingobongo]

Feels good knowing I have no counter. Not a single counter. But, will get nerfed soon (probably damage wise). C'est la vie.

[Pope]

It's funny to see pvp-threads complaining about Blood DK-damage. PvE-wise, they have the lowest damage output

Anyway, Blood DKs aren't as invincible as you think. Just kite them to death. They can't heal as much when you're not in melee-range.

[Harpocrates]

pvp isnt balanced around 1v1 etc etc...

[ophion1990]

The amount of BAD in these "ZOMG NERF DK NAO" threads is immense.

First I see posts of Warriors charging headlong into Combat with Blood Dks in BG's instead of letting other people kill it (and actually making it easier for the Dk to survive people killing it by giving it free heals), than I also read Rogues and Hunters talking about getting Crit for huge numbers, when they should stop being bad and Actually Shiv/Tranq their veng off.

Also a good Dk of any other spec Unholy/Frost can kill a Blood very easily, as necrotic strike basically fucks blood in the ass.

Pro-Tip, this game isn't balanced around 1v1 or 2v2, If you are a melee don't try and kill a tank that is meant to be able to take punches to the face from raid-bosses.

Idiocy, Idiocy everywhere.

Because having high survivability and only critting 20k+ WITHOUT vengeance is fine right? Its pretty much impossible for a melee to counter a good blood dk right now. But yeah blood is fine and we all suck. And avoiding every blood dk in a bg... I might aswell stop playing them altogether then.

You want to kill a Blood DK in PvP, learn to use casters correctly. If you don't have one to lock up the DK that's not the DK's fault. Rogues spent the first 5+ years being the ultimate melee class in PvP until Cata came around. It's about time something other then a Rogue is able to stand 1v1 vs any other melee.

How was rogue the ultimate melee class in WLK? Really, explain this to me. They were OP in TBC because of cheat death which was bugged and PvE geared ppl hitting like a truck abusing it, but I agree. Rogue was OP in TBC during s3(?) and s4. As for vanilla... just don't talk about vanilla PvP. A shaman was able to 1 shot people, warrior was insane, ...

[capitano666]

Kiting as Warrior is pointless; I have no ranged damage output and my DoTs are extremely weak (1-4% of a Blood DKs 170k health base).

I'm pretty sure people didn't meant kite as "dot and kite", but "run away and wait for his defensive cooldown to end"

[Protoman]

Yep, but BG's are BG's, try playing a blood dk in 2vs2 and see how good they are :3

And yes i know its especially annoying as a warr / rogue to take down a blood dk, but spell casters have it way easier.

PVP is balanced with both bgs and arena taken into consideration. Blood DK's are OP plain and simple, and they will be getting a big nerf, atleast on Deathstrike....just a matter of time and figuring out where to nerf them and how to adjust so they don't lose any damage in pve.

Tanks can be durable, or even have good self heals, but not high burst damage. For example, prot warrs were op for a while but got damage removed from conc stun, as well as shield slam dmg red.

[underdogba]

DKs always have been and always will be damage based threat tanks and because of this DKs have always had higher DPS numbers as tanks (with the exception of Paladins getting a free damage increase against undead trash in ICC). It's the way the class has always worked and as this game is centered on PvE there is no reason to nerf that damage just because people can't figure out how to handle them in PvP.

Nothing could possibly be further from the truth, and spreading this made-up disinformation is a serious disservice to this discussion. Some observations --

1) Prot Paladin is the original "damage based threat tank" as of the addition of Righteous Fury as an ability, which conferred a threat multiplier to holy school damage. Prior to that, all other tanks (of which Warrior was actually the only endgame viable class until arguably either 2.3 or Wrath) had static bonus threat added to abilities independent of damage.

2) ALL tanks in the current game are "damage based threat tanks", as static threat bonuses to specific abilities are completely gone, and threat for ALL tanks is based on a multiplier applied to the damage of all attacks.

3) DK was NEVER a "damage based threat tank" until Cata. The bulk of DK threat came from Runestrike, which in Wrath was a move with a static threat bonus. Later on, Icy Touch was buffed with... you guessed it ... a static threat bonus.

4) Throughout the entirety of Cata DK's were the lowest DPS tank until now.

In summary, every single thing you're saying is completely wrong, with the exception of the minor fact that paladins did get 1% bonus damage again undead through a minor (WotLK) glyph, which oddly is the only factually-correct piece of information in that entire statement, and it has nothing to do with DK tanks (although to be fair, you're also wrong about that because it wasn't just "trash", it applied to undead bosses to).

---------- Post added 2011-12-16 at 01:23 PM ----------

Things like Vengeance benefit DK tanks the most because of this but at the same time they were the tanking class that needed it the most because since their introduction to the game they've usually been on the lower end in terms of TPS. People don't like it because they are not used to it but the fact is DK tanking is finally working correctly after being around for over 3 years.

I can't resist this either.

How is it possible that DK tanks were "always" the "damage based threat tank", yet were on the lower end of "TPS" while being the tank that supposedly put out the most DPS? How is it that Vengeance "benefits DK tanks the most" when all TPS in the entire game is tied multiplicatively to damage?

This level of fuzzy illogical thinking, factual misinformation, and pure delusion is just amazing.