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  1. #1

    Shadow Priest in my raid needs assistance

    Long story short, I have this shadow priest in my raid "Ambrosiá" that is not pulling the numbers he should. I'm rather concerned as to why on Ultraxion he is only pulling 25k. If you require anymore information that may help you figure out the issue, please post and I will reply with said information.

    Any advice or things you can see him doing wrong would be greatly appreciated.

    Armory: us.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen-ring/Ambrosi%C3%A1/advanced

    World of Logs (Ultraxion): worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-z1aiymb3edtl60m6/analyze/dd/source/?s=12674&e=12995

  2. #2
    The first thing that I see off the bat is that they are only at 13.45% hit. That definitely needs to be higher, more around cap at 17%, and is definitely a source of problem. They should reforge the mastery to haste > spirit/hit (until hit cap) > crit. If still not capped, then reforge crit to spirit/hit. The uptime on their DoTs seems good, nothing below 93%. Their chest gems should also be Reckless and Purified instead of 2 Brilliant | Shoulders- Reckless.

    Their spec is wrong too. Take two points out of Paralysis (tier 5) and put it into Veiled Shadows (tier 1).

    Also, why is the shadowpriest not getting Dark Intent in your raid? It is definitely better for your overall raid DPS to give to them over anyone else in your comp. It's sort of pointless it give it to the healers >.> Also, your Demo lock should get Focus Magic.

    Edit: they should also get a real raiding profession unless you're not focusing too much on raiding. Herbalism would be best replaced with Tailoring. It would be a substantial DPS upgrade
    Last edited by Venith; 2011-12-11 at 08:39 AM.

  3. #3
    Thanks for the reply and advice. Some things first, the lock is giving DI to the healers because at the moment the lock is also doing sub-par dps (already have a thread in the lock forums on that) and so giving it to the shadowpriest would benefit the overall raid DPS, it would hurt the lock's. Depending on whether or not the lock forum can solve my lock's dps issues will determine what happens there. Though, if you think that giving DI to the SP and FM to the Demo lock would balance that out then I will definitely give it a whirl tomorrow night during the next raid.

    Also, regarding the hit cap comment. For some reason this shadow priest believes that you don't need to hit the hit cap. He mentioned something about "If I have enough haste rating it won't matter." I'm not trying to defend him, but looking at the Ultraxion kill he only missed 3 spells. Missing spells is bad, obviously, but would reaching hit cap make a noticeable difference?

    I will mention the spec changes and the gem changes as well. As for the profession comment, I do raid and focus on raiding as well. I can mention swapping professions to him, but that's a large change then simply gem/talents/enchants. If he is up for it then great, if not, I can only force my raid members to do so much >.<

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerieana View Post
    Thanks for the reply and advice. Some things first, the lock is giving DI to the healers because at the moment the lock is also doing sub-par dps (already have a thread in the lock forums on that) and so giving it to the shadowpriest would benefit the overall raid DPS, it would hurt the lock's. Depending on whether or not the lock forum can solve my lock's dps issues will determine what happens there. Though, if you think that giving DI to the SP and FM to the Demo lock would balance that out then I will definitely give it a whirl tomorrow night during the next raid.

    Also, regarding the hit cap comment. For some reason this shadow priest believes that you don't need to hit the hit cap. He mentioned something about "If I have enough haste rating it won't matter." I'm not trying to defend him, but looking at the Ultraxion kill he only missed 3 spells. Missing spells is bad, obviously, but would reaching hit cap make a noticeable difference?

    I will mention the spec changes and the gem changes as well. As for the profession comment, I do raid and focus on raiding as well. I can mention swapping professions to him, but that's a large change then simply gem/talents/enchants. If he is up for it then great, if not, I can only force my raid members to do so much >.<
    True, that may be on that fight, and that fight only, but hit rating can be a fickle mistress. You never know when your spell will hit or miss, and that's something you'd want to try and avoid. True, us shadow priests can be under the hit cap, but 13% is just way too low 16.00-16.80 should be a decent amount to aim for.
    Edit: I understand herbalism is NOT a raiding profession, but if he can 'relies on the haste' or some other bologna like that, let him keep it. My guild tried to make me change mine, but I'm too lazy/stubborn to do so. Sure it's an overall loss in DPS, yadda-yadda, but it's what I like to play with, and in the end, that's all that really matters.
    Last edited by Professor Oak; 2011-12-11 at 09:33 AM.

  5. #5
    Alright, the reason I had to ask is, if he gets hit cap it won't up his dps from what it currently is. If he is near the hit cap and doesn't miss any spells great, but the log shows that even with only missing 3 spells he is still only pulling 25k. Being near the hit cap just means there is a almost 100% chance that he will always do 25k on that fight.

    If my logic is flawed by all means correct me, but that's my train of thought right now.

  6. #6
    Like I said, that's 25k this fight around. Next fight it may be lower. You really can't gauge whether or not you'll miss a spell, but it's something you can avoid by being closer to the hit cap. He can stand to lose some crit, since 19% is pretty high. Also, like Venith said, his gems could stand to use a makeover. Gemming a few Purified Demonseye won't kill him.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerieana View Post
    Some things first, the lock is giving DI to the healers because at the moment the lock is also doing sub-par dps (already have a thread in the lock forums on that) and so giving it to the shadowpriest would benefit the overall raid DPS, it would hurt the lock's. Depending on whether or not the lock forum can solve my lock's dps issues will determine what happens there. Though, if you think that giving DI to the SP and FM to the Demo lock would balance that out then I will definitely give it a whirl tomorrow night during the next raid.
    This doesn't make any sense. A shadow priest's DoT uptime is WAY higher than that of a holy priest because the only non-DoT spell that Shadow Priests use (for a single target fight) is Mind Blast. Mind Flay is a channeled DoT spell. It will be a dps increase for the lock to give it to the spook. The only person better for DI uptime (for the warlock) is a resto druid, which you don't have, followed by a boomkin with a healing priest way behind. Also, i'm not sure why I said FM to the lock. That, too, is best on a shadow priest for your raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerieana View Post
    Also, regarding the hit cap comment. For some reason this shadow priest believes that you don't need to hit the hit cap. He mentioned something about "If I have enough haste rating it won't matter."
    In 4.1 hit was pretty negligible as a shadow priest because the majority of our damage came from DoTs and if they missed it was no big deal. However, since 4.2 it's been fairly necessary to get as close to hit cap as possible, without going over, because if a Mind Blast misses it's a big deal.

    Edit: Regarding DI, see this thread:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...k-Intent-(4.3)
    or for 4.2, it gets more into DI uptime, which is mostly unchanged:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...tent-The-Guide
    Last edited by Venith; 2011-12-11 at 09:47 AM.

  8. #8
    One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned, and its quite odd indeed, is that SP's ARE NOT a single target class. Which means that we're pretty weak on single targets but hell so strong when it comes to multiple targets.

    Take for example Ultraxion, with my gear (Bormiirgir, EU, Grim Batol) i can just pull out 26k on Ultraxion but everyone else in the raid does 28k+.

    And if we look at Lootship II (a.k.a Warmaster) im the top DPS by far.

    You shouldn't be so aware of his DPS on single target.

    And as ppl are sayindg, DI is the killer here, If he gets DI i can ensure you that he will be top.

    Also there's alot of other things to be considered:

    Raidbuffs!

    There's perfect setup for priests and there's bad setups.

    With a perfect setup (own experience) there's NO ONE who could beat me on the DPS meter.

    With this in mind, you should just let it be for now (But please, make him hitcapped).

    Happy raiding!

  9. #9
    I guess I should mention that we did have a resto druid in the raid up until the last attempt on Ultraxion (which was the kill). It simply may have been that my lock forgot to put the DI on the shadow priest after the druid was sub'd out for the fight.

    As for professor oak, I see what your saying. However, my logic is that on this fight, lucky as the shadowpriest was, he only missed 3 spells. With only 3 spells missed and doing 25k I'm curious as to what not missing those 3 spells would do for him. I completely understand RNG and not being near the hit cap can make his dps lower the next week etc. Would not missing those 3 spells mean he would go up by 1k? 2k? I'm not against telling him to get closer to the hit cap, simply that I doubt getting near said cap will increase his dps much since even without being close to the cap he only missed 3 spells and did 25k.

    I just feel like their is something bigger than spell hit cap that is causing my shadowpriest is 386 ilvl gear, to do lower then my shaman in 383 gear doing 27k.

    Edit: I also have my raid set up to cover every single buff (aside from a bleed and increased physical damage buff).

    Edit 2: Normally I have a resto druid in the raid full time. In the future, would it be a better idea for the lock to always DI the shadowpriest regardless of a resto druid being there? Same with FM, should I just give both of those to the shadow priest? My raid comp is a Pally tank, blood tank, Disc/Holy priest, Holy Pally, Resto Druid, Ele/Enhance Shaman, Unholy DK, Demo Lock and Arcane Mage.
    Last edited by Nerieana; 2011-12-11 at 09:47 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Venith View Post
    They should reforge the mastery to haste > spirit/hit (until hit cap) > crit.
    Very curious as to why you are saying Crit > Mastery. From my experiences and everywhere I read Mastery > Crit due to the fact that it buffs your DoT's by a very nice amount along with the numbers it provides for Mind Blast. Crit is a very stubborn thing at times and the main benefit I see is getting your fiend back up quicker, but everything I've always done has shown Mastery increase on the DoT's is better than the stat crit provides.

  11. #11
    Uhm. It might be a bit too early for me, but on wol the uptime for his shadowform was 40%??!?!?!? Did he maybe forgot to switch into the correct form?

    //E: and tell him to reforge out of crit. Its a worse stat for sp. He lacks around 2% haste and he even forged into crit out of hit. Thats just not smart when you lack the hit to be caped.
    Last edited by BondGirl; 2011-12-11 at 09:56 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Bormiirgir View Post
    One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned, and its quite odd indeed, is that SP's ARE NOT a single target class. Which means that we're pretty weak on single targets but hell so strong when it comes to multiple targets.

    Take for example Ultraxion, with my gear (Bormiirgir, EU, Grim Batol) i can just pull out 26k on Ultraxion but everyone else in the raid does 28k+.

    And if we look at Lootship II (a.k.a Warmaster) im the top DPS by far.

    You shouldn't be so aware of his DPS on single target.

    And as ppl are sayindg, DI is the killer here, If he gets DI i can ensure you that he will be top.

    Also there's alot of other things to be considered:

    Raidbuffs!

    There's perfect setup for priests and there's bad setups.

    With a perfect setup (own experience) there's NO ONE who could beat me on the DPS meter.

    With this in mind, you should just let it be for now (But please, make him hitcapped).

    Happy raiding!
    I disagree.
    Our Shadowpriest is our top DPS, for single target fights, and multi target fights.
    Granted he does have the legendary, but prior to him getting it, he was still pulling insane numbers on single target fights.
    Also, while DI can be a game changer, people shouldn't rely on it. It's turning into the whole mage-fm-circle-jerk situation, where they only give it to the highest DPS.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Very curious as to why you are saying Crit > Mastery. From my experiences and everywhere I read Mastery > Crit due to the fact that it buffs your DoT's by a very nice amount along with the numbers it provides for Mind Blast. Crit is a very stubborn thing at times and the main benefit I see is getting your fiend back up quicker, but everything I've always done has shown Mastery increase on the DoT's is better than the stat crit provides.
    Ever since we've had higher values of Int, crit has surpassed mastery on every sim. For our end BiS t12 setup it had crit nearly outweighing haste. I also ran simcraft for the toon of the person in need of help, and that came out as spirit/hit>haste>crit>mastery as well.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by BondGirl View Post
    Uhm. It might be a bit too early for me, but on wol the uptime for his shadowform was 40%??!?!?!? Did he maybe forgot to switch into the correct form?

    //E: and tell him to reforge out of crit. Its a worse stat for sp. He lacks around 2% haste and he even forged into crit out of hit. Thats just dumb when you lack the hit to be caped.
    I just noticed the shadowform comment. I checked the logs and on two fights shadow form showed up as only have 40% and 60% uptime, but on another long attempt it didn't even show up on the "Buffs Gained" list. I can ask him tomorrow if he noticed having to re-enter shadow form during the fight or it may just be a WoL issue?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by BondGirl View Post
    Uhm. It might be a bit too early for me, but on wol the uptime for his shadowform was 40%??!?!?!? Did he maybe forgot to switch into the correct form?
    LOL, how on earth did I miss that. They must have used one of the hymns and didn't go back into Shadowform. Wow.... yeah... that's definitely what did it for them there.

    Quote Originally Posted by BondGirl View Post
    //E: and tell him to reforge out of crit. Its a worse stat for sp. He lacks around 2% haste and he even forged into crit out of hit. Thats just dumb when you lack the hit to be caped.
    And just, no... about the crit... It is not the worst stat; mastery is now (again). Also, no need to call someone dumb. That's just rude.

  16. #16
    I made an account just to answer this:

    You forgot to mention the fact that he/she dies at 93% into the fight. If you analyze the portion of the fight where he was alive you see he is pulling about 26,200 dps.

    You also have to realize that everyone else in your raid had hero for about 36 seconds, whereas since he died during hero he only had 17 seconds of uptime with it.

    You can also see when hero was popped he did not recast his dots, which is a dps loss. Also, if he had hit those 4 spells, he would have had about a 420 dps increase.

    also he wasn't in shadowform half the time? thats 15% less dmg right there. With shadowform up 100% of the time and 17% hit his dps could have been at 28,240 instead of the 25,000.

    As far as the armory goes, his spec is incorrect, his reforging is pretty bad (ie: his gloves reforging needed spirit to crit), and he is under hit, which will increase his dps. especially when u are casting MB with 3 orbs up and can hit for 83k, but miss.
    Last edited by Lambie; 2011-12-11 at 10:01 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Venith View Post
    Ever since we've had higher values of Int, crit has surpassed mastery on every sim. For our end BiS t12 setup it had crit nearly outweighing haste. I also ran simcraft for the toon of the person in need of help, and that came out as spirit/hit>haste>crit>mastery as well.
    You said you ran the person in question. Did you run them with the Hit Cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery build with stat weights and then another with Hit Cap > Haste > Mastery > Crit? Running a simulation one way will net results in one way, if you alter stats and increase their value in other areas it can also adjust. I've seen some classes where if you reverse the stats they sometimes increase in value.

    Even more curious now especially as others in this thread are stating Crit is bad. Just curious if you had sources or just going by your experience.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Venith View Post
    LOL, how on earth did I miss that. They must have used one of the hymns and didn't go back into Shadowform. Wow.... yeah... that's definitely what did it for them there.


    And just, no... about the crit... It is not the worst stat; mastery is now (again). Also, no need to call someone dumb. That's just rude.
    too early for me. appologises. in that case it was meant to forge out of hit into crit if you lack ~4% to be caped.

    fixed the text

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    You said you ran the person in question. Did you run them with the Hit Cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery build with stat weights and then another with Hit Cap > Haste > Mastery > Crit? Running a simulation one way will net results in one way, if you alter stats and increase their value in other areas it can also adjust. I've seen some classes where if you reverse the stats they sometimes increase in value.
    I think you misunderstood what I did. I actually imported their character into SimCraft and ran 50,000 iterations with their raid's buffs to determine what their personal stat weights were. No use in adjusting stats/changing gear to something that they person doesn't have if they are looking for immediate DPS increases.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Venith View Post
    I think you misunderstood what I did. I actually imported their character into SimCraft and ran 50,000 iterations with their raid's buffs to determine what their personal stat weights were. No use in adjusting stats/changing gear to something that they person doesn't have.
    That's what I mean. Stat weights are a very touchy thing and is dependent highly on the "what you currently have". I was referring to where if you take Player's A current stats you'll arrive at X stat weights. If you reforge all your stats to match the weights there are times you will find out that the weights are once again completely different till you roll around and finally find a "happy medium".

    If it wasn't so late I'd attempt to play around with his weights and show what I'm trying to convey, but alas it's late and I'm half asleep. Also was just wondering if you had a source stating where crit is definitely better than mastery now.
    Last edited by Lucetia; 2011-12-11 at 10:02 AM.

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