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  1. #41
    Bloodsail Admiral Speedy92286's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The "whack-a-mole" healing tag comes from addons like Healbot, Vuhdo and Gridclique. Where healer's essentially only needed to pay attention to the interface / their feet. Very few other games have that though.

    Typically a case of Warcraft experience being the only or primary MMO for many. So they define all MMOs by those mechanics and all similar mechanics by that singular game. At least in a general sense.
    Which is why I stopped using them once 4.0 hit. I realized healing is far more fun without a healing add on. Just my personal preference.

    I am glad GW2 doesn't have the holy trinity, and I say this as a person who loves being the healer. I like dpsing and tanking is okay, but healing and supporting my team is where I get the most enjoyment from. In GW2 I can support the group and contribute in other ways, which is amazing. It also means that when I decide to NOT play on my healer, I don't have to worry about some "baddie" keeping the group up while I play on my elemental shaman. Without the holy trinity, I can support my team while killing things, or kill things while supporting.

    I am hoping more games follow GW2's suite, but I doubt it.
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  2. #42
    Some people like Sudoku, others like the crossword. Try telling those people you are removing one or the other from the Sunday paper (for something more engaging) and see what happens.
    Then they'll have to get over it and just play it or find a new paper!

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I know what he is saying but it is a foolish opinion. In my opinion, ahem. XD

    As a tank I am keenly aware of DPS and heals and support- my primary function is to enhance their role. Likewise, as a DPS I am enabling the healer to do his job. Et cetera. The system itself is symbiotic.
    You haven't done any random PUGs in WOW recently have you?

  4. #44
    I'm honestly pretty open to the idea, but it's going to mean that there will be no "HardCore Raiding" in gw2.

    It's going to be fun and a pretty amazing MMO, but I think just because of the feel of it and the way the devs are gearing the whole affair, it's going to be a fun thing to do with your friends, but never an E-Sport like wow. There's nothing wrong with it, but as a fan of hardcore raiding and a fan of the concepts behind GW2, I am slightly disappointed that the two things are not likely to meet.

    Still going to play the hell out of this thing though.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Borzo View Post
    You haven't done any random PUGs in WOW recently have you?
    Only LFG on occasion. I play mostly SW:TOR and Rift. Quit WoW in Wrath, playing a hunter casually now in Cata on off days. Probably not for long though because my guild is eager to start competitive raiding in SW:TOR so that's gonna suck up lots of time in the next coming months.

    But yea, I just disagree with Alex Ridiculous on his premise. It's contradictory as he lays it out. Natch, he is welcome to such an opinion. As am I in contra.

  6. #46
    I'm a healer. That said, I think it's great that GW2 is trying something new. I just doubt I'll find a place for myself in their game.
    I've seen their initial gameplay vids. It's something like this for every class.

    dodge dodge stab dodge stab stab stab dodge heal dodge stab stab heal stab dodge heal heal stab stab stab.
    Dodge and heal are buttons you push, on top of 'dodge' being the usual 'do not stand in the bad stuff'
    If range, replace stab with shoot.
    If you are KO'd, you mash buttons until you get up or until a party member gets you up.
    Mind you, this was an earlier video with dev commentary on youtube, probably about 8+ months ago so maybe this has changed. But lets assume it hasn't.

    It's a dance. Some people will be good at the dance some won't. I'd wager that many won't. And how do gaming communities treat 'bads' these days? Not like a community, that's for sure.
    If you think people did poorly when Cata brought back hard heroics, wait until you see what happens with GW2 when people fail at the dance.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    But yea, I just disagree with Alex Ridiculous on his premise. It's contradictory as he lays it out. Natch, he is welcome to such an opinion. As am I in contra.
    Let's be a bit realistic here. You say:

    Likewise, as a DPS I am enabling the healer to do his job.
    WTF does that even mean? In WOW - as a DPS player - what kind of "teamwork" are you participating in? Seriously? You do your rotation and focus on the boss. Occasionally you deal with adds. Rarely does DPSing require interaction with other players.

    Sure some raid boss strats require teamwork to avoid a wipe, but 99% of the content in WOW does not.

    WOW is a bunch of people doing their own thing - at the same time, and sometimes in the same place. That doesn't equal "teamwork" though.

  8. #48
    Bloodsail Admiral Speedy92286's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    I'm a healer. That said, I think it's great that GW2 is trying something new. I just doubt I'll find a place for myself in their game.
    I've seen their initial gameplay vids. It's something like this for every class.

    dodge dodge stab dodge stab stab stab dodge heal dodge stab stab heal stab dodge heal heal stab stab stab.
    Dodge and heal are buttons you push, on top of 'dodge' being the usual 'do not stand in the bad stuff'
    If range, replace stab with shoot.
    If you are KO'd, you mash buttons until you get up or until a party member gets you up.
    Mind you, this was an earlier video with dev commentary on youtube, probably about 8+ months ago so maybe this has changed. But lets assume it hasn't.

    It's a dance. Some people will be good at the dance some won't. I'd wager that many won't. And how do gaming communities treat 'bads' these days? Not like a community, that's for sure.
    If you think people did poorly when Cata brought back hard heroics, wait until you see what happens with GW2 when people fail at the dance.
    I'd take the "dance" that GW2 brings, then the over-reliance on healers. I'm sorry, but when people straight out ignore mechanics because the healer and tank can "handle" it, something is wrong.

    Will it take time for people to adjust to self-survival? Sure, but once they do, I have no doubt in my mind that they will love it.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy92286 View Post
    I'd take the "dance" that GW2 brings, then the over-reliance on healers. I'm sorry, but when people straight out ignore mechanics because the healer and tank can "handle" it, something is wrong.

    Will it take time for people to adjust to self-survival? Sure, but once they do, I have no doubt in my mind that they will love it.
    Yup. GW2 effectively removes the ability for one person to "carry" another. This is a good thing.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    ...

    It's a dance. Some people will be good at the dance some won't. I'd wager that many won't. And how do gaming communities treat 'bads' these days? Not like a community, that's for sure.
    If you think people did poorly when Cata brought back hard heroics, wait until you see what happens with GW2 when people fail at the dance.
    Great point. I'm really curious to see how the community develops as people get into the tougher dungeons. There will be a lot of predictable reactions (TOO HARD!! QQ MUCH?) The problem will be that there won't be anything familiar in terms of group dynamics to fall back on when the going gets tough. No: ok, the tank takes the boss to point A, while the dps stands in a circle here... healers just stay out of trouble.

    The return of 'hard' heroics is a great example of the Blizz devs recognizing that they had completely removed teamwork (as ARed is defining it) from that section of the game, and trying to stuff it back into a system of game mechanics that doesn't really accommodate it. edit: or only allows for it in a narrow way
    Last edited by semantic; 2011-12-20 at 06:02 AM.

  11. #51
    Brewmaster jibbyjackjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svava View Post
    I'm honestly pretty open to the idea, but it's going to mean that there will be no "HardCore Raiding" in gw2.

    It's going to be fun and a pretty amazing MMO, but I just because of the feel of it and the way the devs are gearing the whole affair, it's going to be a fun thing to do with your friends, but never an E-Sport like wow. There's nothing wrong with it, but as a fan of hardcore raiding and a fan of the concepts behind GW2, I am slightly disappointed that the two things are not likely to meet.

    Still going to play the hell out of this thing though.
    It only eliminates raids if you define it in world of Warcraft terms.

    If you don't do that, you are more likely to find a proper answer.

    Edit: I'm not quite sure where I read it, but didn't wow just get dumped as being an endorsed esport?
    Last edited by jibbyjackjoe; 2011-12-20 at 06:39 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Borzo View Post
    WTF does that even mean? In WOW - as a DPS player - what kind of "teamwork" are you participating in? Seriously? You do your rotation and focus on the boss. Occasionally you deal with adds. Rarely does DPSing require interaction with other players.
    Resources are finite in Warcraft (& other MMOs), speedy & efficient DPS conserves resources. Moreover, the healers & tanks in the WoW trinity are enabled in their progression through DPS. As DPS is enabled in their progression by tanks & healers.

    Sure some raid boss strats require teamwork to avoid a wipe, but 99% of the content in WOW does not.
    You mean the area of the game where team work and the trinity is designed to function optimally. All raid bosses required teamwork and group interaction in the time I raided in Warcraft from classic to Ulduar. The author of the video admits encounter design inspires such teamwork.

    Seems worthless to me to talk about teamwork when you are out there in the Barrens killing murlocks when the meat of the gameplay supports raiding where teamwork was critical and dependent on each role performing optimally*.

    *During my raiding in WoW. I understand Dragonsoul is very easy, but I have not been. Within other MMOs from EQ to SW:TOR, the trinity system and interdependence is vital in endgame content.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy92286 View Post
    I'd take the "dance" that GW2 brings, then the over-reliance on healers. I'm sorry, but when people straight out ignore mechanics because the healer and tank can "handle" it, something is wrong.
    I don't know when the last time you played WoW was, but there are currently few to no fights where one portion of the trinity carries the other two. There are fights which are more dependant, or a major mechanic revolves around 1 aspect of the trinity, but in no way would I suggest that healing can 'carry' tanks and dps on a fight like Baleroc, just because there is a healing buff.


    Will it take time for people to adjust to self-survival? Sure, but once they do, I have no doubt in my mind that they will love it.
    I would agree, except for the fact that the bads will not adjust. And when their entitlement attitudes kick in, they will want someone else to handle their damage avoidance or healing instead of themselves. The more people are swiss army knives, the more people will demand a machette once they're in the jungle.
    "I'm a casual. I don't have time to think or press defensive cooldowns or heal myself or stay out of fire."
    Good luck with those attitudes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Borzo View Post
    Yup. GW2 effectively removes the ability for one person to "carry" another. This is a good thing.
    Yeup. And if fights are not solo-able, it means you are going to see some very frustrated players when they're saddled with bads who can't take care of themselves. Lets say you have a 5 person encounter. The minute 1 person is gone there will be more strain on the rest. You can't just 'dance' harder as the dodge and self-heal buttons are governed by your energy bars (again, old video, this might have changed), and you can't really stab harder either.

    Yes, my healing could carry bad DPS. But that means that the person is still there to deal damage to the boss that might allow us to down the boss. It's also one more body between the boss and me, buying us more time if I can keep that person alive. Good teamwork is being able to make up for someone else's poor teamwork or poor performance. Like the Balance Druid (ranged caster DPS) that took over tanking the other day when the main tank went down. He was smart enough to hit his cooldowns so he didn't die, and when those wore out I hit my healing cooldowns to make up the difference. That right there is the definition of teamwork, especially with one player being able to take up a role not familiar to them.

    I do wish that all MMO's in general would give more mechanics that would allow better teamwork like this, and it could still occur with the Holy Trinity as a base framework. By that I mean, the Trinity is the base (especially for introductory content) and the class abilities could allow a player to take it in any other direction. That is sort of what is happening with MoP (Threat changes, big time tanking changes, huge changes to hybrid classes, some support abilities being added to the non-hybrid classes) I just wish they (anyone really) would really build on it and take it somewhere truly amazing. Could GW2 pull it off? There is potential.


    @Fencers
    Yes, the mechanics still require teamwork. LFR is easy and requires less communication, but there still is some teamwork required. Normal mode amps that up a notch, Heroic much more. Group content encourages inter-group teamwork. Solo content encourages no teamwork due to the fact that it is solo, to summon up your argument.
    Also, look at PvP, especially Arenas. Big time teamwork there.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2011-12-20 at 06:31 AM.

  14. #54
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    you are going to see some very frustrated players when they're saddled with bads who can't take care of themselves. Lets say you have a 5 person encounter.
    What that does is foster community. You will actually play with your friends and guildies instead of some random player who you won't speak to and will never see again.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Resources are finite in Warcraft (& other MMOs), speedy & efficient DPS conserves resources. Moreover, the healers & tanks in the WoW trinity are enabled in their progression through DPS. As DPS is enabled in their progression by tanks & healers.
    This is irrelevant to the definition of teamwork and you know it. Multiple people working towards the same goal independently is not teamwork.

    You mean the area of the game where team work and the trinity is designed to function optimally. All raid bosses required teamwork and group interaction in the time I raided in Warcraft from classic to Ulduar. The author of the video admits encounter design inspires such teamwork.
    End game raid bosses do require teamwork - usually. But end game raid bosses are only 1% of WOW content. The other 99% of WOW doesn't require teamwork, nor does it encourage it. To be truthful, WOW actually discourages teamwork all the way up to level 84.

    Also, raid bosses require teamwork in ways that have nothing to do with the holy trinity... the reason there is teamwork in raid fights isn't because of the holy trinity specifically.

  16. #56
    Brewmaster jibbyjackjoe's Avatar
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    @karhot: I main a warlock. I never interact with the healers. Unless you count me soul stoning them when they die. I also never interact with the tank. He turns the boss away from me and I smack it's ass.

    I think the valid description of wow gameplay is you work along side others to down content. That may be nitpicking a definition, but when I look at GW2 and I see an elementalist make a wall o fire and a ranger shoots arrows through it that catch ablaze, that's f@$king teamwork. To me, anyways.

    I'm not saying wows model of trinity isn't a good one. Anyone who isn't crazy can see they are clearly a dominating force. But to define the gameplay as 10 people working together I think is false. Working along side each other, more accurate.

    Again, I may be nitpicking. But, it's clear that anet does want to be far away from wows model without abandoning the fantasy atmosphere.

    I say bring on the removal of the trinity!

  17. #57
    hmm i just thought of something wouldn't gw2 be similar to how you play l4d and l4d2

    take the special infected as bosses mainly the tank
    medkits as self heals(limited i know ingame)
    weapons; ak47,shotgun as the weapon swaps
    rescuing others from a downed state as gw2 revive
    using items like cans of gas like class combos

  18. #58
    We are slightly off-topic here. But it's an interesting discussion. If we veer too far let me know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Borzo View Post
    This is irrelevant to the definition of teamwork and you know it. Multiple people working towards the same goal independently is not teamwork.
    Uh, you are working toward the same goal. The healer and tank classes can not sustain themselves indefinitely. They need damage dealers to kill the group's adversaries. As damage dealers need tanks to soak, healers to replenish.

    I am working toward an independent goal by shooting arrows into the thing killing my tank? That doesn't make any sense. We are only there collectively working toward that goal; killing the dragon thingy.

    End game raid bosses do require teamwork - usually. But end game raid bosses are only 1% of WOW content. The other 99% of WOW doesn't require teamwork, nor does it encourage it. To be truthful, WOW actually discourages teamwork all the way up to level 84.
    Don't agree with this. Leveling is a small process of the game. The majority of time is spent in groups in order to progress beyond the cap. Which is the crux of the game.

    I suppose there are those who spend more time fishing or collecting Brewfest mounts than in group play. Whatever.

    Also, raid bosses require teamwork in ways that have nothing to do with the holy trinity... the reason there is teamwork in raid fights isn't because of the holy trinity specifically.
    This is... not good. Um, threat tables? Crushing blows? Hard Enrage? Drains? Adds? Soft Enrage? Focus fire? Kill orders? Those are mechanics specifically built for the trinity system to handle.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2011-12-20 at 07:12 AM.

  19. #59
    I completely agree with you, Jibbyjackjoe. I don't feel that 7 people attacking a boss and 3 healing is good team work. WoW's current model relies on the individual - and that is something Anet is trying avoid in GW2. They want groups to succeed off of the backs of ALL of the players, not just because the healers were able to keep the group alive (Warlord Zon'ozz comes to mind...).

    For example, the tank gets punched in the face, the healer to fix the tanks nose and the dps to break the boss' face in turn. To me that isn't really... team work. That's just people doing their "role" and nothing else. DPS aren't going out of their way to say, help the tanks take less damage. But I suppose that's just the way the game is designed now. People don't *have* to do anything other than their set role and unfortunately that's all people care about doing. It's turned into people just trying to top DPS or HPS charts.

    Hard to explain o.o;

    Comparing GW2 and WoW on that level - as you did with the flame wall, Jibbyjackjoe - it is rare that there are multiple players literally working together to achieve something. E.g. In a GW2 dungeon, people will have to be setting up cross profession combos to help buff allies and debuff enemies. There is nothing like that in WoW. The only literal "team work" I can think of in WoW is maybe PvP, where chain CCing is involved.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    .., threat tables? Crushing blows? Hard Enrage? Drains? Adds? Soft Enrage? Focus fire? Kill orders? Those are mechanics specifically built for the trinity system to handle.
    Actually, those mechanics can be implemented just fine in the absence a fixed aggro table system. Many of the 'teamwork' centric ones (adds, enrage, FF) are a staple of GW1 encounters.

    edit: eh, not so much enrage now that i think about it. Bosses get phases of increased strength, but you don't bump up against dps timers that i remember.
    Last edited by semantic; 2011-12-20 at 07:41 AM.

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