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  1. #61
    Mechagnome Vewen's Avatar
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    No, GW2 shouldn't have raids, I'm more than happy with nice PvE experience that requires the use of a brain. For the rest, I want Arena net to make whatever they think is fun, I trust them.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by airea View Post
    I'm honestly wondering if anyone is capable of imagining non-instance raiding. Nobody said it had to be "the same damn mold". No one said it had to be the carrot on a stick routine either. I'm honestly wondering if anyone is reading the entirety of the posts in favor. I'm simply considering the idea to completely strip down and kick the old idea of raids in the face, pick it up, and rebuild it in the eyes and the dynamic of the DEs in GW2. I don't want anything like WoW. Let's just pretend WoW doesn't exist.
    If you truly want to do that might I recommend the first thing you strip down and never mention again is the term RAID. Just throw it out, any time its used this thread happens. The fact of the mater is the term is irrevocably linked to the wow style instanced boss encounters in the collective MMO community's psyche. Anet has tried to do away with many old concepts that are part'n'parcel to modern MMO's, raids among them. While eliet DE's probably will fill the same content nitch raids do trying to apply the term Raid to them is going to accomplish nothing but attach expectations to them that are just not true.

    Who is John Galt?

  3. #63
    Meh, I want to see how elite dynamic events pan out before I cry for raids. The no raid thing is what makes GW2 unique.

  4. #64
    I really don't care if there is no raids. As long as there is some enjoyable endgamish stuff to do. There's always pvp, but I mean pve stuff.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Merendel View Post
    If you truly want to do that might I recommend the first thing you strip down and never mention again is the term RAID. Just throw it out, any time its used this thread happens. The fact of the mater is the term is irrevocably linked to the wow style instanced boss encounters in the collective MMO community's psyche. Anet has tried to do away with many old concepts that are part'n'parcel to modern MMO's, raids among them. While eliet DE's probably will fill the same content nitch raids do trying to apply the term Raid to them is going to accomplish nothing but attach expectations to them that are just not true.
    Yeah, I started noticing the too... Sad, but it seems WoW has nearly brainwashed some of us as far as terminology goes. To be honest though, I think GW2 is the most amazing MMO (and maybe even the most amazing video game) I've seen come out in a hell of a long time. I'll be one of A-Net's biggest fans (in fact I'm planning on getting a degree in environment art and seeing if I can't land a job in their studio) whether they shove, let's just call them Encounters for now, into the game. I'll be much more than content with what they've put into the game thus far, I just wish I could see what direction A-Net would take this idea in.

  6. #66
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Not having raids is fine, if you won't want to attract a certain type of audience. That's all it really boils down to.
    The reason WoW/EQ style raids are so successful is because they pit a tight knit team of players against challenges that could not be completed otherwise. The reason those raid sizes are usually between 10 and 25 people is that at that point you really feel like you have an epic group of people (yes I know that some people don't think 10mans are epic, but they are in my opinion). On top of that, if you have 10+ people the developer can make the encounters that much more complex, after all imagine a 5man doing H Alysrazor, it would be quite the nightmare. Also, you have a certain type of diversity in terms of roles with that many people.

    GW2 will work quite differently with only 5man groups, which can simply never feel quite as epic as a 10 or 25man (I still think 15mans would be ideal). Encounters also have to be designed differently, since you simply do not have the diversity of classes and number of players to handle large amounts of tasks. So in terms of instanced raiding, I feel it will be hard to have a international esport scene for PvE in a 5man environment. Can it be done? Possibly, as games like SC2 are amazing for esports and only feature 2 players, but that's all PvP and I think you need a larger number of people in order to be able to design the kind of fights designed to keep online viewers entertained. Of course I could be completely wrong, and GW2 could suddenly jump to be the most prominent form of PvE ESport out there, but only time will tell.

    As for the large raiding aspect of GW2 in the form of outdoor bosses that require boat loads of people to kill. The problem I've always had with raiding that doesn't require a cohesive team effort, is that it's hard to build prestige in such a setting. LFR is proving to be the perfect example of this, with individual achievment being almost meaningless because nobody cares enough.

    I mean imagine an argument between two GW2 players, one being the equivalent of Lazeil from Paragon, and the other being just a regular player that has never done anything but LFR. Lazeil: "Did you see how much I contributed to killing that boss? Me and my buddies played our butts off and made this kill possible!" Random: "Dude nobody cares, there were like 60 people involved and who knows how much you actually did? I hit the boss too and I think I'm as good as you!" See what I mean? Outdoor bosses can never require a huge amount of prep, coordination or teamwork because coordinating the amount of people to kill an outdoor boss would be insane, and the sheer number of people plus the self reliance gameplay of GW2 would simply overwhelm the boss.

    In essence, 5man instanced raiding has the chance to become a very prestigious form of esports if ANet does it right, but I personally don't think it will be able to compete with the type of PvE esport that WoW, TOR and who knows what other MMO's are coming up will provide. The prestige is simply not there. As for outdoor raiding, I think it's a nice gimmick, but it's going to be hard to feel a sense of achievement when you know that your presence did not help too much, and was most likely not required at all.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by airea View Post
    Well let's break down a raid into what it really means.

    A raid in WoW is when a large group of people (usually 10/25/40) group together and raid the keep of an enemy, killing several bosses along the way. The reason people do the same raids more than once is due to Skinner's Box. Skinner's Box basically implies that if there's a random chance of getting something you want by performing an action, you'll keep doing the action until you get it. It's proven time and time again through social mental studies.

    At the core, a raid is just when a large group of people raid an enemy keep. No one said it had to follow any set of predefined rules or customs. When we say raid, we don't necessarily mean a WoW clone. We just want some large (25+) instanced group content. Yes, dungeons will be difficult, but 5 people? Honestly, that doesn't sound very epic to me. I like raiding because it's a massive player experience that takes months to perfect. So whether it's a longer, larger dungeon or a massive DE with several bosses, I'm all for it.

    We need to leave the WoW frame of mind behind. Raids don't have to be bad things! They just need to be stripped down to their core purpose and then rebuilt with good mechanics that are actually fun and worth our time.
    Word!

    I think we need to look at Guild Wars 2 endgame less through the lens of classic MMORPGs and more through the lens of a game like Diablo III or even Battlefield 3. Once we do that, the idea of "Raids" isn't limited to doing a series of PvE bossfights in an instance, it becomes a much broader word.

    What I do expect is a form of content that will tie my guild together and entertain us for multiple weeks on end. I need something that I plan ahead, something that can take place on a schedule and commonly involves larger amounts of people compared to dungeons. It should also be a "long-term" goal, rather than something with immediate rewards.

    While all of that applies to raids it isn't limited to them. Larger scale PvP could just as easily be a form of "long-term" entertainment, as long as it's scheduled and somewhat coordinated.

    And that's something I'm still a little concerned about in GW2 since Public Quests don't quite fit the format. I'm open minded but I'm unsure about what Guild activities will actually evolve around.
    Last edited by Dee-Jay Delicious; 2011-12-16 at 12:54 AM.

  8. #68
    No, no =)
    Im tired of that. Every mmo I go for pvp I end up in raids. Because Im social and friendly and quite good at pve. I want to kill people, I want to take part in war =)
    And if I get to kill an gigantic dragon every now and then or follow a story to develop my char, fine, but you know... =)

  9. #69
    raiding doesnt need to be instanced. i started playing mmos with dark age of camelot. you had 3 factions and a very very balanced, rewarding and motivating pvp. the game also had really nice pve because it was casual unfriendly. there was little homogenisation between classes so everyone felt unique and brought their own set of tools to the table. this is what i hope to experience anew in gw2, different in its details but the same in the general experience.
    daoc had epic pve events, so epic in fact that in a time when not everyone had custom interfaces, skype, their on ts server and a build in social network and calender, organizing these events was an epic feat at its own. BUT the rewards and experience were always rewarding. you could do almost every encounter with as many people as you liked (there usually was a min requirement because you needed a certain set of skills and a certain amount of dmg / manareg / whatever) but the gameplay mechanics usually prevented zerging by introducing things like aoe spells that if they killed you resurected you as a uberstrong pawn of the boss (or cthunstyle chain dmg and whatnot).
    now, more than 10 years later, anet has a chance to capitalize on these strengths where many other big companies failed.
    it doesnt even have to be a complete dungeon, it just needs to be a insanely strong guy standing in the middle of a big nowhere with really cool mechanics and loot. and before you even know it people will flock around and try to beat the shit out of him. THATS what it is about.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by airea View Post
    Yeah, I started noticing the too... Sad, but it seems WoW has nearly brainwashed some of us as far as terminology goes. To be honest though, I think GW2 is the most amazing MMO (and maybe even the most amazing video game) I've seen come out in a hell
    Two things:
    1. MMOChampion has a majorly Warcraft player base on the forums.

    Keep this in mind often as most argue from a Warcraft perspective. Again, take a gander at the addon & LFD threads and you will find opinion mostly colored by Warcraft experience. Even if we were to calmly explain raids/addons/LFG exist in other MMOs to no ill effect- the major bias is Warcraft.

    2. Most MMOs are unlike Warcraft.
    But Warcraft, naturally, has the popular base. Also see 1 above.

    Raiding as you wish it to be was the oldest style of raiding AND most common. As I pointed out with EQ earlier- we will most likely see raiding in the open world via DEs in GW2 as the game progresses. Overall, I personally don't think the concept will be that foreign to GW2 players but is certainly eccentric to many Warcraft players.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Crowe View Post
    Word!

    I think we need to look at Guild Wars 2 endgame less through the lens of a classic MMORPG and more through the lens of a game like Diablo III or even Battlefield 3. Once we do that the idea of "Raids" isn't just limited to doing a series of PvE bossfights in an instance, it becomes much more broad.

    What I do want is a form of content that will tie my guild together and entertain us for multiple weeks on end. I need something that I plan ahead for, something that can take place on a schedule and commonly involves a larger amount of people than the dungeons. It should also be a more "long-term" goal, rather than something with immediate rewards.

    While all of that applies to raids in our common definition is isn't limited to them. Larger scale PvP could just as easily be such a form of entertainment, as long as it's scheduled and somewhat coordinated.

    And that's something I'm still a little concerned about in GW2 since Public Quests don't quite fit that definition.
    Wasn't expecting a Mod to come on down and agree with me. Although, Fencers is right, I suppose this is what I get for talking about Raids on a mostly WoW based site. Still, I think it's good to shell shock WoW fans so they can see it doesn't have to be such a boring grind of instanced nonsense. I've heard a lot of DAoC comments lately (a game I've never played, but sounds great), and it's style is definitely somewhat mimicking the style I'm talking about. I'm hoping in the future A-Net will try and restructure the raid system to the point of GW2's PvE being the social norm.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    As I pointed out with EQ earlier- we will most likely see raiding in the open world via DEs in GW2 as the game progresses. Overall, I personally don't think the concept will be that foreign to GW2 players but is certainly eccentric to many Warcraft players.
    This. Elite areas where DEs can be triggered that lead up to an elite event. Place a magic stone on a pedestal. It could spawn enemies in several spots in the area and eventually converge at one spot. And that's just a VERY generic situation where several groups of people would have to work together to accomplish a goal. If all the enemies don't die w/in a certain amount of time from one another the event fails. Go get another summoning stone with some Karma and try again.

    The beauty of the DE is that then people who are also in that area can come along and help out. If they suck and continue to die they won't be counted in the event. Nbd, right? But you have the coordination of at least a few groups going on which should be enough to take down a boss. And that only applies if these areas aren't put in spots where it would require groups of people to gain access to in the first place. Think Planes of Power EQ style. Rallos Zek raid area. That was an open world raid, it took up to 3 hours to clear the trash before, kill both his sons, then the mirror image of RZ, only then could you get to the arena to kill him along with about 30 trash mobs having to be off tanked and kited around. You didn't see people jumping in the middle of the fights because if you weren't in the raid group you weren't going to get healed.

    I'm also not opposed to a key system like what was seen in EQ. Vex Thal and the Emp Chamber in Ssra. I'm sure with the anti grind policy it wouldn't be overly difficult to get a key, but they could definitely make the key drops in specific area of the dungeons where a DE spawns if someone with the quest zones in. Make that key required to get into an area for a raid. There are so many options for outdoor raids.

    What I really am hoping for and still don't know if they'll have - In game voice chat system.
    Last edited by fishious; 2011-12-15 at 11:07 PM.

  13. #73
    I would not be surprised if they eventually decide to add them. They're already implementing huge world bosses that are essentially raid bosses, after all. It's not exactly a far stretch to create some traditional raid content as well, though I'm hoping they would be as creative and awesome with their raid content as they are being with the rest of the game.

    As others have said, 'raid' is just a gaming concept, it doesn't have anything to do with what a raid is in WoW. A raid is a large group of players working together to defeat some epic challenge, that's all.
    Last edited by Herecius; 2011-12-15 at 11:09 PM.

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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by fishious View Post
    What I really am hoping for and still don't know if they'll have - In game voice chat system.
    Good points on all other accounts as well, but this last bit caught my eye. That sounds great. Didn't WoW try this and fail horribly? Anyway, I'm sure GW2 could make a nice system. However, it'd be difficult with the game being free and all. Chat servers cost money, do they not? Decent ones, anyway.

  15. #75
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    As others have said, 'raid' is just a gaming concept, it doesn't have anything to do with what a raid is in WoW. A raid is a large group of players working together to defeat some epic challenge, that's all.
    And is exactly what the end events of DE chains are...
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
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  16. #76
    I don`t think that this game even deserves to be called a MMO. So many horrible design choices. No tanks, no healers. Combat system with depth of a first person shooter. Loading screens everywhere. No mounts - instant travel. Non raids, which basically means no end game. Unbelievable.

    I believe that it was actually in WoW where instanced type of dungeons and raids where implemented for the first time. One of the greatest addition to the MMOs in my opinion. Raid bosses in the open world just promote ganking and griefing.

    Please stay on topic. This isn't a thread for you to explain why you dislike the game, it's a thread to talk about the inclusion/exclusion of raids from it. Infracted. -Edge

    I stayed on topic. Learn to read, idiot.
    Last edited by Shob; 2011-12-15 at 11:50 PM.

  17. #77
    while they don't have to provide "proper" raids for GW2, if they ever consider making some, i'd hope they'd make some sort of instanced elite DE zone where the only requirement could be having a group of at least 5 people (i see no reason to limit raids to 10 or 25/40 people when you could just go with 8, 22 or even 99 players?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shob View Post
    I don`t think that this game even deserves to be called a MMO. So many horrible design choices. No tanks, no healers. Combat system with depth of a first person shooter. Loading screens everywhere. No mounts - instant travel. Non raids, which basically means no end game. Unbelievable.

    I believe that it was actually in WoW where instanced type of dungeons and raids where implemented for the first time. One of the greatest addition to the MMOs in my opinion. Raid bosses in the open world just promote ganking and griefing.
    i'd rather think the problem here is you don't know what a MMO is in the first place, and it also looks like you didn't understood much of how GW2 is going to work. like how you speak of ganking/griefing raid bosses in a game where the (PvE) open world doesn't allow players to fight amongst themselves.
    Last edited by sacrypheyes; 2011-12-15 at 11:39 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Shob View Post
    I don`t think that this game even deserves to be called a MMO. So many horrible design choices. No tanks, no healers. Combat system with depth of a first person shooter. Loading screens everywhere. No mounts - instant travel. Non raids, which basically means no end game. Unbelievable.

    I believe that it was actually in WoW where instanced type of dungeons and raids where implemented for the first time. One of the greatest addition to the MMOs in my opinion. Raid bosses in the open world just promote ganking and griefing.
    Not sure if sarcasm, or 10 year old...

  19. #79
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shob View Post
    I don`t think that this game even deserves to be called a MMO. So many horrible design choices. No tanks, no healers. Combat system with depth of a first person shooter. Loading screens everywhere. No mounts - instant travel. Non raids, which basically means no end game. Unbelievable.
    Cool story, brah, but Instanced, Restricted, Carrot-on-a-stick, Raids do not make MMOs MMOs, in fact, WoW is hardly an MMO anymore because of LFD and LFR, and all those people sitting in cities waiting for queues to pop or raid nights to begin. The only thing Massive about WoW is the ammount of money it rakes in. The only thing massively multiplayer about WoW is... well... nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Blznsmri View Post
    And is exactly what the end events of DE chains are...
    Just to make things clear, DEs are something which (so far) do not require too much planning and can be handled quite easily. They're like the equivalent of WoW dungeons in terms of difficulty. Raids? Raids take months and months to structure, organize, plan, learn about, and become coordinated enough to accomplish. We're not saying to make them necessary, instanced, or endgame content, we're just saying it'd be a nice system for people who like to plan things and spend a lot of time focusing on getting better at a large event.

    If they make DEs that suit this model, great. But so far, I haven't seen any.

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