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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Crusade View Post
    It's funny, because I said a 10 man raid, not instance. So much flaming, it's almost cute. The DEs sound like my cup of tea. I liked, in RIFT, going up to a raid tear with some guildies, tearing it open and owning whatever came out of it. Words are just hard I guess, to you guys raids has to mean instances. : /
    You're asking an MMO that's trying to break the "mould" of contemporary MMOs to add in a feature that puts them right back in the same god damn "mould." How could you not expect opposition?
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Crusade View Post
    It's funny, because I said a 10 man raid, not instance. So much flaming, it's almost cute. The DEs sound like my cup of tea. I liked, in RIFT, going up to a raid tear with some guildies, tearing it open and owning whatever came out of it. Words are just hard I guess, to you guys raids has to mean instances. : /
    Hope I didn't sound like I was flaming ya. :s

    It was a genuine thought- GW2's open DEs are sorta open raids. With scaling. So it seems one could grab 9 other people and have a "raid", so to speak.

  3. #43
    Herald of the Titans Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    the problem with raids is that it promotes a selfish mentality that we ultimately saw happen to the WoW community in its later stages during wrath (and arguably, late BC).

    On top of this, the problem with raids is that you require people to be there in order to do them. While Guilds will exist in GW2 (um, yea...) they wont be used as a means to raid for yourself. I cannot tell you how many guilds I jumped through in WoW simply because the Guild Leader could not guarantee everyone will show up, everyone was in control of their own actions and said "whatever, im not coming". This either lead to the guild falling apart, or the guild leader resorting to more aggressive tactics towards their own members, and im pretty sure no one here likes to be pressured into doing anything when all they are trying to do is have fun.

    Raids are fun to have multiple friends to do with, but if you don't have those dedicated friends, it is a complete hell.

    This is why I like GW2's approach, you are not restricted to RAIDING to get the best gear available, the developers are not trying to pressure you into a corner by forcing you to do large scale dungeons (which is what raids are) with people you do not want to affiliate yourself with in order to be viable. It just doesnt make sense for it.

    Why force yourself to get along with people you may not like just to get gear?

    That's why I will probably make a small guild for myself, and only invite friends to it, since raiding doesn't exist, I wont be forced to deal with assholes anymore because I need to fill that Healer's spot or tank spot... (Thank goodness they're getting rid of the Trinity). If someone pisses me off, I can just /ignore and never deal with them again.

    People are stupid and people are mainly dicks, why put up with them to raid?

  4. #44
    I am Murloc! Chickat's Avatar
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    I used to want raids in gw2. I also wanted the carrot on a stick treadmill of progression. Im fine with no raids and no gear upgrades, but the game play is going to have to be very very fun. If its even as good as other games then i wont like it. It has to be better without having raiding and gearing.

  5. #45
    Mechagnome Blood Crusade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blznsmri View Post
    You're asking an MMO that's trying to break the "mould" of contemporary MMOs to add in a feature that puts them right back in the same god damn "mould." How could you not expect opposition?
    So, asking for an encounter where I fight monsters with my friends/guildmates is to much? What the hell am I supposed to do in this game then, hm? Play the AH? Collect pets? Sit AFK in town? Because those also put us back in the same "god damn mould". I'm not asking for a 2 tank, 3 healer, 5 dps 10 man raid. I'm not asking for an encounter based dungeon. I'm asking for something that requires me to cooperate with people to get the task accomplished. Yeah, so I said 10 people, so what? How will 5 mans break the "mould", hm? Please, enlighten this poor soul.

    Edit: The game is clearly about fighting baddies, all I asked for was a little variety from 5 mans. You'll notice my post said 10 or less people, I don't want 25 man raiding guilds or a bunch of people racing for world first.
    Last edited by Blood Crusade; 2011-12-15 at 08:18 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    On top of this, the problem with raids is that you require people to be there in order to do them. While Guilds will exist in GW2 (um, yea...) they wont be used as a means to raid for yourself. I cannot tell you how many guilds I jumped through in WoW simply because the Guild Leader could not guarantee everyone will show up, everyone was in control of their own actions and said "whatever, im not coming". This either lead to the guild falling apart, or the guild leader resorting to more aggressive tactics towards their own members, and im pretty sure no one here likes to be pressured into doing anything when all they are trying to do is have fun.

    Raids are fun to have multiple friends to do with, but if you don't have those dedicated friends, it is a complete hell.
    Yea, it's kinda strange from my POV the way raiding filtered down to general player base in WoW. Even more so after seeing the LFR tool in action realizing the design intention of raiding has totally changed focus within Warcraft. And player expectation with it. Esp. vis-a-vis Rift's raiding game which seems far more brutal/exclusive leading to guilds breaking apart by sheer attrition.

    While I do enjoy instance raiding, I feel like it might be a concept that will need to change radically in the future or be phased out totally. Doesn't seem to hold up as well in today's MMOs as it did back when you had to raid the planes in EQ.

  7. #47
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Crusade View Post
    So, asking for an encounter where I fight monsters with my friends/guildmates is to much? What the hell am I supposed to do in this game then, hm? Play the AH? Collect pets? Sit AFK in town? Because those also put us back in the same "god damn mould". I'm not asking for a 2 tank, 3 healer, 5 dps 10 man raid. I'm not asking for an encounter based dungeon. I'm asking for something that requires me to cooperate with people to get the task accomplished. Yeah, so I said 10 people, so what? How will 5 mans break the "mould", hm? Please, enlighten this poor soul.
    You said raid and all that it implies. If you want to do an encounter with your friends and guildmates go do DE chains and end events. Lowering the number of players allowed in instances (dungeons) removes the greatest and most retarded factor in encounter difficulty, logistics.

    Logistics is the ONLY thing that makes encounters difficult, so you tell me, why are 5 mans less fun than 10 mans?
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  8. #48
    Mechagnome Blood Crusade's Avatar
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    Because I tend to have more than 4 friends in most games I play. Whoever said I wanted the difficulty removed? Playing an MMO and dealing with people go hand in hand, that's what the MM pretty much stands for.

  9. #49
    Raids were the most tedious experience I had in WoW, no thanks.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Crusade View Post
    Because I tend to have more than 4 friends in most games I play. Whoever said I wanted the difficulty removed? Playing an MMO and dealing with people go hand in hand, that's what the MM pretty much stands for.
    Cool, go do DE event chains, those can scale up to 100s of people, hell, invite your highschool class/ college class/ coworkers.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  11. #51
    Mechagnome Blood Crusade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blznsmri View Post
    Cool, go do DE event chains, those can scale up to 100s of people, hell, invite your highschool class/ college class/ coworkers.
    You clearly didn't read the whole post that you first quoted. I clearly stated that DE's sounded like my cup of tea. What a waste of 10 minutes.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Blznsmri View Post
    Logistics is the ONLY thing that makes encounters difficult, so you tell me, why are 5 mans less fun than 10 mans?
    Not enough people consider this. They see the smaller raid #s sometimes as regressive. But encounter design shot up in complexity and challenge as we moved away from 100 man raids->60->40->25->10. It is much easier to create a balanced encounter for smaller groups with greater mechanics. Also more responsibility on individuals ups the challenge level significantly vs. being healer #32 out of 60 in Asylum of Anguish. X_X

  13. #53
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    I think people are getting a bit carried away with terminology here

  14. #54
    I thought there was dynamic events that require 10 people minimum to accomplish, they also scale in difficulty the more people you have with you. I would just consider it an outdoor raid.

  15. #55
    Herald of the Titans Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Yea, it's kinda strange from my POV the way raiding filtered down to general player base in WoW. Even more so after seeing the LFR tool in action realizing the design intention of raiding has totally changed focus within Warcraft. And player expectation with it. Esp. vis-a-vis Rift's raiding game which seems far more brutal/exclusive leading to guilds breaking apart by sheer attrition.

    While I do enjoy instance raiding, I feel like it might be a concept that will need to change radically in the future or be phased out totally. Doesn't seem to hold up as well in today's MMOs as it did back when you had to raid the planes in EQ.
    I agree, the problem with today;s MMO's generally isnt the game itself though, its the playerbase who plays the game. Before WoW became mainstream, most of the players who played it were either first time MMO players (like myself) or people who used to play other MMO's (like UO, DAOC, and EQ). And while raiding was great for vetereans of the genre, people expected that kind of gameplay in order to get the best gear. They didnt complain that they had to get in a guild to get organized and do bosses, they just did.

    But when WoW got older, it drew in a broader audience, more people who were competitive who saw the game as some kind of contest of whos top dog in raiding. This lead to people becoming more self centered, as they tried to get the best gear possible to be recognized. Gear became so important, that it trumped the idea of a unified community that guilds provided. Nowadays you cant even find one guild where some guild member left the guild to try and apply for some guild doing Hard Modes, instead of trying to push their guild into getting better to do them.

    Its not the game that has become the problem, its the people. The Raid model system has become out of date, simply because the people who play the game have changed. We have a more self-entitled audience in the MMO genre than we used to 10 years ago, and I doubt they are going anywhere soon.

    This is why GW2 is a very good candidate for changing the game, taking out raiding as the epitome of progression opens up the avenues for one to measure their own success, which I hope will make people actually go OUT into the world and do something they want to do, rather than "Its Tuesday, get on your fucking mains right now or so help me I will make your life a living hell".

  16. #56
    I'm honestly wondering if anyone is capable of imagining non-instance raiding. Nobody said it had to be "the same damn mold". No one said it had to be the carrot on a stick routine either. I'm honestly wondering if anyone is reading the entirety of the posts in favor. I'm simply considering the idea to completely strip down and kick the old idea of raids in the face, pick it up, and rebuild it in the eyes and the dynamic of the DEs in GW2. I don't want anything like WoW. Let's just pretend WoW doesn't exist.

    Those large scale DEs you're talking about so far have only showed one boss. They look like fun, and very large! However, what I think most of us (not all of us, but most) are talking about are multi-boss DEs. I don't even think we truly understand how A-Net would make what we're looking for. Just try, if it's possible for you, to imagine something like this. A type of large scale, multi-boss DE that follows a small storyline. It doesn't even have to be vital to the main storyline, as I know that's what tends to make 'raiding' endgame content. This is not what I'm looking for. Raids as true endgame content are silly, but what if they made these things with novelty side storylines? A way for people who enjoy the lore or hardcore, large group PvE to get a bit more involved.

    There doesn't have to be any elitism, race to world firsts, raiding guilds, or endgame content out of it. More or less, I'd just like to know what A-Net could possibly do with the idea.

  17. #57
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Not enough people consider this. They see the smaller raid #s sometimes as regressive. But encounter design shot up in complexity and challenge as we moved away from 100 man raids->60->40->25->10. It is much easier to create a balanced encounter for smaller groups with greater mechanics. Also more responsibility on individuals ups the challenge level significantly vs. being healer #32 out of 60 in Asylum of Anguish. X_X
    Yeah, I mean look at AQ40, none of those encounters are particularly challenging or creative. Adds spawn, bosses switch, boss flies...
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    The problem with raiding is developers invariably make it the main focus of their game. You bore yourself crazy leveling, then get to the "end game" hop on the gear treadmill and chase a carrot forever. Since GW2 doesn't have that crutch they're forced to make the entire game entertaining, instead of just wasting your time with tier after tier of more or less the same old shit.

    If it's challenging content you want, you'll still have that in 5 man explorable dungeons. To give you some perspective, the devs recently said a full clear, one shotting everything with a fast moving uber pro group should take you about 1 hour. So the average group of friends taking their time and carrying that one baddie friend we all have, you'll be looking at maybe 2 hrs imo. Which to me seems perfect.

    People just need to lose their old Wow mindsets.
    Agreed completely. I won't miss raiding in GW2. The main problem for me is that you can't simply walk out of a raid group if you feel like doing something else. Everyone depends on you. It feels too much like a job you know. I prefer more freedom and a laid back playstyle. 5-mans and PvP works perfectly fine for me

  19. #59
    I won't say I'd hate the idea. I wouldn't like it either, but I most likely wouldn't get involved with them anyways.

    I would say only if they could balance a raid for not having tanks or healers.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I won't say I'd hate the idea. I wouldn't like it either, but I most likely wouldn't get involved with them anyways.

    I would say only if they could balance a raid for not having tanks or healers.
    If you've played a game like vindictus, with raids, and no trinity system, and similar combat, it CAN work. I say CAN because, it can be difficult to balance.

    For example, you basically NEED to dodge every boss attack, or else it will one shot you, or bring you to near death in under a second. This just felt silly in my opinion, it didn't feel like you were fighting a boss. I know bosses are suppose to be big, strong, and epic, but nothing is epic about running around for 5 minutes, hitting them a few times, and continuing to run.

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