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  1. #1

    Question How Will Baddies Affect The Game?

    I'll apologize in advance for the slightly baiting title, but I think 'baddie' is far more accurate than 'casual' or the like in this discussion.

    I was thinking about class, individual and group balance, re-reading arguments for and against the trinity, raids, etc. IMO, the truly dynamic aspect of the game won't be the events, it'll be how we play our characters, altering tactics, skills and responsibilities on the fly.

    In WoW, which button you press determines the action you take. In GW2, your action is dictated by: Being on land or in water, which weapon you have equipped, what other professions and skills you have in your group (for combos), etc. That introduces so many potential combinations and alterations to how you play... which leads to my question:

    How will bad players affect the game? Do you think most will swap weapons on the fly, switch to healing or defense, go ranged instead of melee?

    I suppose you could chalk it up to preference more than being bad, but are any of you afraid of the warrior who focuses solely on melee-bound defense, or the DPS who never assists with heals, or that guy in the back who only likes to play a would-be buffer/healer?

    In a sense, we're all meant to be druids or paladins in GW2; our skill bar carries a variety of skills to assist in every aspect of gameplay. Will the majority play the game right and utilize all 3 or 4 specs (using wow as an example), or will most players keep it simple and go Ret or Feral?

    (I mean absolutely no offense to WoW Druids or Pallies, just using the stereotype for an example)

    Basically, do you think GW2 will foster true hybrid teamwork, or will the real solo-player/pure 'spec' overcome the development goals of A-net, and what will that do to the game, in a worst case scenario?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Foreverlad View Post
    Basically, do you think GW2 will foster true hybrid teamwork, or will the real solo-player/pure 'spec' overcome the development goals of A-net, and what will that do to the game, in a worst case scenario?
    GW2 was designed from the ground up to encourage exactly this, and punish people who don't. It's obvious that that's the case with things like the lack of the holy trinity. That part of GW2 in particular forces you to improvise.

    I wouldn't mind having a few baddies to curbstomp in PvP, though...

  3. #3
    I'd be worried if I had a baddie in my dungeon groups, but since you only need five people for those, I think I'll probably be able to get away with playing solely with friends when I do those, and thank goodness for that. I think that there will be room for error when it comes to the large-scale DEs, so you can afford to have a baddie or two there. It's the baddies on my team in PvP that will irritate me, although that's just a part of life in ANY multiplayer game.

  4. #4
    This is why I'm establishing a guild now, along with bringing in family and friends to the game.

    But I won't mind the "baddies" who are willing to learn. The ones who don't, will feel thine wrath. :P

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    I don't really like the term "baddie", I prefer "Unskilled". Because someone doesn't know how to do something doesn't make them bad, it just makes them unskilled. It's not bad to be unskilled, because there's always room to learn, and there's always other players to help the unskilled players learn.

    Unskilled players will not effect the game. Elitist jerks and stubborn players will. You'll have the players who will refuse to teach, and tend toward kicking "baddies", and you'll have "baddies" who tend toward never taking advice because they think that what they're doing is fine. These are the players that'll effect the game. These kind of players are what we like to call "assholes". They should be shunned, spit upon, and treated with utmost prejudice that a human can express. The best way to help assholes is to drive them away from the game, or shove them in the cage of trolls where they can promptly be ignored.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Snow White's Avatar
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    That is a really baiting title.

    Anyway, I don't think GW2 is going to be as forgiving as other games if you don't know what you're doing. If players can't adapt to this new play style I'm guessing they will get frustrated and move on. Honestly, I hope they do. I would hate to see gw2 simplified for a lazier crowd.
    Last edited by Snow White; 2011-12-20 at 03:17 PM.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowWhiteWolf View Post
    I'm hoping that they wil give up and leave. Most likely they will cry out on all forums for nerfs and wow-like game changes.
    What kind of player are you talking about? The "baddie" as the OP described, or assholes who refuse to learn? If they're assholes who refuse to learn and blame everything on the game, then yes, I hope they give up too. If they're just unskilled players without a clue, then they should be fed information. It's always a rewarding feeling to help players out and see them grow. I've made quite a few WoW friends this way, all who've ended up becoming phenomenal players.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    If they're just unskilled players without a clue, then they should be fed information. It's always a rewarding feeling to help players out and see them grow. I've made quite a few WoW friends this way, all who've ended up becoming phenomenal players.
    Precisely. I've had enough of games trying to push down those less skillful (usually new players). All they care about are themselves. Even within their own little "communities", they only look out for #1. Thankfully, the gameplay and mechanic style of GW2 doesn't seem to suit these kinds of players. A-Net is very good at holding out against trolls and fanboy whiners. I think everything within the game (including the community) should turn out just fine.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    I don't really like the term "baddie", I prefer "Unskilled". Because someone doesn't know how to do something doesn't make them bad, it just makes them unskilled. It's not bad to be unskilled, because there's always room to learn, and there's always other players to help the unskilled players learn.
    As I'm not a regular poster here on MMOC, folk don't know me well, so I sometimes don't explain certain things enough. I should have clarified my point more: A baddie, in this scenario, would be a DPS-junkie, or someone obsessed with maintaining the holy trinity. New players, or casuals, or those who don't study up on the finer points weren't meant to be included. There's plenty to learn, and there'll be plenty of opportunities to do so.

    It's the folk who refuse to use the #6 button, the ones who won't risk switching weapons because they're rocking the imaginary DPS meters, or the ones who only like playing a support role who I worry about.

    They won't get far in PvP, that's for certain, and I can see them sliding by when they're surrounded by 20-50 other players during dynamic events, but in smaller groups for dungeons and such, I'm worried that having to adjust to their limited playstyle could lead to more players sticking with a single strategy.

    Baddie Hunter only range attacks. Elementalist in the party adapts by maintaining a line of fire on the ground for a combo to arrows while ranging fireballs. Warrior is covering for the Hunter, so he's holding at the fire line, Mesmer is (theoretically) off-tanking with one-shottable duplicates and player 5 is trying to keep everyone else alive with a well-laid healing circle.

    Hardly a comprehensive (or necessarily possible) situation, but the idea is that a one-trick pony player can unintentionally alter the roles and responsibilities of the rest of the group as they need to either alter and adapt constantly, maintaining a specific role, compensating for bad play.

    When you deal with enough players who refuse to adapt, you get in the habit of fulfilling a particular role, to the point you're stuck trying to be a tank, a healer, or an additional dps, instead of doing all of that within a minute. Do this often enough and you're turning into a one-trick pony for others, just out of habit.

  10. #10
    I imagine they would not stay bad for long since you need to be a good player rather than a good class. Also what Cuchulainn said I agree with people should be shown that right way to do things rather than kicked out. I remember when I played wow for the first time I knew nothing about stats but nobody told me I had the wrong stats for a priest but maybe nobody knew what they were doing at the time also lol.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Foreverlad View Post
    A baddie, in this scenario, would be a DPS-junkie, or someone obsessed with maintaining the holy trinity. New players, or casuals, or those who don't study up on the finer points weren't meant to be included.
    If the future GW2 community is what I'm imagining it to be, these kinds of players will get flamed and ignored so often that they'll just end up giving up and running back to blizzard for their Cheerios and OJ. They'll probably hang around for a few months, then change and/or leave gradually.

  12. #12
    @the OP

    Anet claim the DEs are unable to be "griefed" by players either wishing to disrupt the DE or by sheer bad play. The exact details on how that will work out in practice and what it means to gameplay are unknown.

    Just gotta wait and see. DE are perhaps the murkiest of GW2 features.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Just gotta wait and see. DE are perhaps the murkiest of GW2 features.
    Oh how much I wish the upcoming beta wasn't under such strict NDA...

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    @OP:

    A baddie, in this scenario, would be a DPS-junkie, or someone obsessed with maintaining the holy trinity.
    Now that you've clarified...

    Yes, those are the type of people who I like to call assholes, because, well...they're assholes. The game hasn't even released yet and we get threads on this board about the inclusion of raids and addons that mirror the conventional and safe model of today's MMOs. Most OPs of these threads have WoW avatars and armory links in their signatures. Some come off as civil, but the civil ones never reply to their own threads, they just kind of...disappear. The not-so-civil ones get met with hostility and their threads get closed or their threads ramble on about how the OP is a dumbass.

    You probably won't be surprised to see this kind of behavior in the game (if it ever releases, lol). These players who want, cry, and blame will just get outed by the bette part of the community. That is, until the majority of the community ends up becoming a cesspool of bitching kids. It'll happen, all with due time. For now we should enjoy the community as it will stay civil for at least 2 years.

    When I played AoC there was one general chat channel that everyone could talk in no matter where anyone was. A "global chat", if you will. I remember hearing so many WoW fan boys rage in that channel because AoC was different in its' own light. "lol wow clone" was everywhere in chat. Nevermind the bugs and getting kicked off bridged by horses. Nope. These asshats complained about how AoC was too much like WoW or too different from WoW. They'll never learn, these people.

    The effect of these kinds of players will not take hold of GW2 until much time after, when the maddened masses eventually follow these dimwits into MMO oblivion. As for the effect of these players on game-play, well, I'm sure they'll have some kind of negative effect, but nothing that will be as serious as wiping a group because of bad heals, or ninja looting.

    Either way, the only thing you have to worry about is the personality of these people digressing the quality of the community, rather than the game itself.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    @OP:




    You probably won't be surprised to see this kind of behavior in the game (if it ever releases, lol). These players who want, cry, and blame will just get outed by the bette part of the community. That is, until the majority of the community ends up becoming a cesspool of bitching kids. It'll happen, all with due time. For now we should enjoy the community as it will stay civil for at least 2 years.


    The effect of these kinds of players will not take hold of GW2 until much time after, when the maddened masses eventually follow these dimwits into MMO oblivion. As for the effect of these players on game-play, well, I'm sure they'll have some kind of negative effect, but nothing that will be as serious as wiping a group because of bad heals, or ninja looting.

    Either way, the only thing you have to worry about is the personality of these people digressing the quality of the community, rather than the game itself.
    Good points. My biggest complaint about GW2 is, honestly, the hype surrounding it. I don't want GW2 to be a WoW killer; that would mean the habits, desires and attitudes of the less savory types would make their way into the game. I want GW2 to be tradition killer. If that means it only has 100k players, so be it. I want something new-ish, and I'd like to leave all the bullshit behind.

    If spells need adjusting, so be it. If playstyle could be improved upon, fine. What I don't want to see is the game renounce the changes A-net is offering us. If the community stands up to the assholes, it'll be a sunny day for us all. If the company bows under the pressure of a bunch of MMO traditionalists, I'll rage.

    Though I doubt anyone here will remember it, I was the guy who set up A-net Appreciation Day around the 1 year anniversary of the game. Gaile Gray showed up in Lion's Arch 1 (international), mentioned me by name, and answered a bunch of questions and comments we had while people went around dancing, thanking the company, and running some PvP matches in the nude. It was fun, and I'm hoping A-net earns an appreciation day from me all over again.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    @the OP

    Anet claim the DEs are unable to be "griefed" by players either wishing to disrupt the DE or by sheer bad play. The exact details on how that will work out in practice and what it means to gameplay are unknown.

    Just gotta wait and see. DE are perhaps the murkiest of GW2 features.
    They've already said it's as simple as if a player is in a DE but not doing anything the DE will scale back down as if that person wasn't there and they receive zero credit.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by omlech View Post
    They've already said it's as simple as if a player is in a DE but not doing anything the DE will scale back down as if that person wasn't there and they receive zero credit.
    That is a matter of non-participation. Not poor participation.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    @the OP

    Anet claim the DEs are unable to be "griefed" by players either wishing to disrupt the DE or by sheer bad play. The exact details on how that will work out in practice and what it means to gameplay are unknown.

    Just gotta wait and see. DE are perhaps the murkiest of GW2 features.
    They said they have a counter or some sort of mechanic that tracks each player there. If someone comes in and just goes "AFK" in the middle of it, then he/she won't get squat because of the lack of/no effort put into the DE. So it will be like if they never even showed up. Which I like because that was one flaw in Warhammer Online's public quests that was flawed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    That is a matter of non-participation. Not poor participation.
    They would get poor rewards or nothing at all I'm assuming. I'm pretty sure they've covered this by now, especially going into CB.
    Last edited by Mighty Blue Bear; 2011-12-16 at 05:31 AM.

  19. #19

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    That is a matter of non-participation. Not poor participation.
    Tell me if this thought is flawed, but the way I see it is even if they participate poorly, they'll get a bronze level and some fairly bad loot from completing the event. Unless they're trolls, asshats, or simply uninformed, they'll want to get better in some way to earn more exp, more karma, and better gear. But like I say, unless they're just screwing around to mess things up or unwilling to get better at their playstyle. There will always be people like that in MMOs. I don't think we can avoid it, but due to GW2's DE mechanics, it should discourage that kind of thinking.

    Besides, if no one feeds the trolls, they'll die. Just tolerate them for a couple months and they'll find their way out the back door once they realize they're not in a suitable environment for spreading their trololols. As for inexperienced players, just throw tips around. Eventually, they'll find their way if we offer a bit of assistance.

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