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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreverlad View Post
    As the OP, I just wanted to clarify, this post wasn't created to mock the less experienced. We all have blind spots at some point in our gaming career. Additionally, Dynamic Events are one of the least of my concerns since bad/lazy gameplay can be made up for in strength in numbers; one DPS obsessed player who doesn't assist others will not cause the 29 others playing their professions dynamically to fail.
    I don't think you'll be able to out number a DE. As ANet said, however many people that are participating in the DE will determine the difficulty. What I worry about is even if those players who are bad and refuse to learn are still in the area contributing... the DE will scale since they are there. But if they're not doing it properly, or effectively, then that will screw other players who already know how to play, or those willing to learn.

  2. #42
    Im not sure it really matters same point as in wow for example.
    Only place is if they end up in a 5-man competitive pvp team or 5-man dungeons. If you act as a boosted scrub there your team just wont be successful, simple as that.
    In everyday game otherwise it doesn't really matter what weapons and skills a singel player use really. Since you join public groups automatically there's no role check or anything like that, also cause there's no role.
    It will only affect competitive play, and as in most games: if you aren't skilled enough you aren't competitive enough.
    Just that there's more content to be unskilled in when it comes to GW2, cause you enjoy them on your own or in large public groups.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreverlad View Post
    I'll apologize in advance for the slightly baiting title, but I think 'baddie' is far more accurate than 'casual' or the like in this discussion.

    I was thinking about class, individual and group balance, re-reading arguments for and against the trinity, raids, etc. IMO, the truly dynamic aspect of the game won't be the events, it'll be how we play our characters, altering tactics, skills and responsibilities on the fly.

    In WoW, which button you press determines the action you take. In GW2, your action is dictated by: Being on land or in water, which weapon you have equipped, what other professions and skills you have in your group (for combos), etc. That introduces so many potential combinations and alterations to how you play... which leads to my question:

    How will bad players affect the game? Do you think most will swap weapons on the fly, switch to healing or defense, go ranged instead of melee?

    I suppose you could chalk it up to preference more than being bad, but are any of you afraid of the warrior who focuses solely on melee-bound defense, or the DPS who never assists with heals, or that guy in the back who only likes to play a would-be buffer/healer?

    In a sense, we're all meant to be druids or paladins in GW2; our skill bar carries a variety of skills to assist in every aspect of gameplay. Will the majority play the game right and utilize all 3 or 4 specs (using wow as an example), or will most players keep it simple and go Ret or Feral?

    (I mean absolutely no offense to WoW Druids or Pallies, just using the stereotype for an example)

    Basically, do you think GW2 will foster true hybrid teamwork, or will the real solo-player/pure 'spec' overcome the development goals of A-net, and what will that do to the game, in a worst case scenario?
    I am hoping the GW2 doesn't suffer from Bad Players like WoW does. Here is my reasoning.

    In WoW there is no reason to know anything about your class until you hit 85 and attempt to do heroics/raids. Questing is a joke and every class in the game can level 1-85 using a single button. There are no quests in the leveling process that actually has a chance of you dying. If you do die in the leveling process there is no negative to it besides a repair bill therefore even if people do die they generally don't care. If you do do instances from 1-85 the necessity of a tank and a healer are mediocre at best until you hit around 80, and that is only because Cata has an increased difficulty level compared to the rest of the game. Blizzard also gives non stop "opportunities" to the "baddy" for easy gear and achievements(LFR). Throughout the leveling process there is only ONE quest per class that pertains to a class ability. That is in the opening zone when it tells you to go use an attack ability on a target dummy. All of these factors combine into no need for "learning to play" via the leveling process so once these people get to 85 they are more or less clueless. This really is not the fault of the player at all, but the fault of the current game design.

    If GW2 makes it to there is a very real possibility of dying in the leveling process then that alone will make sure people "skill up" while leveling. I personally hope for a death tax (so far GW2 will not be doing this), this would be an amazing tool for forcing people to skill up and something I think should be mandatory for all MMOs. You die outside of in instance/raid then you are taxed for the next 10% of your levels experience. Meaning that the next 10% of your levels experience is gained at half speed. This will force people to see dying as a very real drawback so that they utilize their skills in a smarter manner. The fact that there is no tank/heal/dps role should also increase the skill levels because in order for a group to succeed everyone should have to support everyone else.

    Until I get into the Beta I won't really be able to factually answer your question, but having played GW1 and read pretty much all the info accessible about GW2 I think Anet is going to come out with a far superior leveling process that what is currently on the market. Player skill building all resides within the leveling process.

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-16 at 07:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post

    Unskilled players will not effect the game. Elitist jerks and stubborn players will.
    That's a very odd way to think. So the truly good players who expect other people to learn to play a game will be the detriment to the game while the "unskilled" masses won't?

    You'll have the players who will refuse to teach, and tend toward kicking "baddies", and you'll have "baddies" who tend toward never taking advice because they think that what they're doing is fine. These are the players that'll effect the game.
    So if you are intelligent enough to learn how to play well and to do the research to learn your class and role then you should have to hand hold people that are too lazy to put forth the same effort? I'm sorry, I am not against giving out advice or telling people what websites to go to but that is where I draw the line.

    These kind of players are what we like to call "assholes". They should be shunned, spit upon, and treated with utmost prejudice that a human can express.
    The unskilled players who refuse to learn should be yes, the skilled players who won't hand hold those people though? That line of thinking is simply ignorant. I do not play games in order to teach baddies how to play. That is not where my fun is derived from, and for that I should be spit on and shunned? Grow up.

    The best way to help assholes is to drive them away from the game, or shove them in the cage of trolls where they can promptly be ignored.
    That is quite a strong opinion. Thank god it is only that, and opinion. You know what they say, "opinions are like assholes, most of them stink".

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-16 at 07:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by worprz View Post
    I imagine they would not stay bad for long since you need to be a good player rather than a good class. Also what Cuchulainn said I agree with people should be shown that right way to do things rather than kicked out. I remember when I played wow for the first time I knew nothing about stats but nobody told me I had the wrong stats for a priest but maybe nobody knew what they were doing at the time also lol.
    Its called the interwebz and google. If you notice that you suck do some web searches for info like 90% of the people that don't suck do. Its really not that hard. Even if you don't suck and you are new to a game like an MMO you should still do a little research to make sure you are doing the right thing. Why play an MMO if you don't want to do this type of thing?

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-16 at 07:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    @the OP

    Anet claim the DEs are unable to be "griefed" by players either wishing to disrupt the DE or by sheer bad play. The exact details on how that will work out in practice and what it means to gameplay are unknown.

    Just gotta wait and see. DE are perhaps the murkiest of GW2 features.
    Actually its not unknown.

    DEs will scale based on the number of people actively participating. Unlike the Rift joke events where you can walk in, do 1 point of damage and scale up the event in GW2 you will need to continue to actively participate in order for said event to keep the scale you gave it. After a certain amount of time (confirmed except for the exact time) with you not doing anything the event will scale you out and lower difficulty until you once again start actively participating, in which it will then rescale.

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-16 at 07:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    That is a matter of non-participation. Not poor participation.
    Poor participation is something that would be ridiculously hard to quantify. Yeah, if a terrible player is participating the difficulty may jump up a little more than it should, but I would hope that its not something a good player couldn't make up for.

    Also, apparently your reward is based on your participation. This is something I really want to see in practice. Hopefully it is a more involved reward system than the pathetic joke that is the rift event rewards.

  4. #44
    i dont mind noobs i mind stubborn players who think they're the the be all end all of gaming.

  5. #45
    Bloodsail Admiral Haggerty's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I'll start by making the obligatory comment - I have no problem whatsoever if someone is just learning...and I have no problem with people whos natural skill level just isn't as high even when fully maxed out - had some fantastic experiences with those kinds of folk...I'm not that competitive and enjoy the playing more than the winning.

    The "baddies" for me are either the folk who are deliberately and with premeditation exploitative...or the folk who push people around and scream a lot.

    Yeah, I call them arseholes too.

    One of the things I *hated* and found upsetting about WoW - in vanilla, moving in to BC...when it stopped being about fun because nobody knew what they were doing, and became this...I don't even know what to call it...like, this tense environment of being told how you had to spec, what you had to do, how you had to dress...of it all being about the loot, about the progress - a half completed dungeon with talking and jokes was deemed a failure...only getting the boss down was success - even if it was in complete silence. All of a sudden people started to scream at other people because they weren't doing it right...you had to have a certain achievement or gear score. It was horrible.

    So I suppose, getting to the point, I fear that happening again...I fear that the baddies will start to outweigh the good folk and all of the magic will go.

    It's not an inevitability, of course, just a fear of mine.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by RAWRF View Post
    Actually its not unknown.
    Nah. You are describing how DEs dole out reward and scale- well known to all tracking the game. That is separate to how Joe Baddie can effect a DE [adversely? we don't really know] for others.

    There are no hard specifics I can find on what Anet define as poor play or how poor players impact the DE for other groups.

    Poor participation is something that would be ridiculously hard to quantify.
    Indeed. Hence DE specifics such as poor play are murky at best till we get to play GW2 popularly.

  7. #47
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    @RAWRF:

    That's a very odd way to think. So the truly good players who expect other people to learn to play a game will be the detriment to the game while the "unskilled" masses won't?
    See, just in your first response to my post does the point go completely over your head. Let me elaborate for you.
    I don't mind truly skilled players at all, there will be a ton of them in GW2 just as there are a ton of them in every Genre of every game. However, this doesn't mean all truly skilled players are elitist assholes (which you're assuming they are, and accusing me of assuming the same). When I speak of Elitist Assholes, I'm talking about the people who won't lift a finger for anyone below their "level" and will proceed to scoff at them for being "lesser" than them.

    Now on to "Stubborn players". Those are the unskilled players that refuse help. The ones who think everything they're doing is right, and everyone else is wrong and/or stupid. Unskilled players in general will not effect the game, but the ones who make running a dungeon a living hell because they refuse help are the ones that will. If only for a short time before getting kicked because they're assholes. Same goes for elitists.

    So if you are intelligent enough to learn how to play well and to do the research to learn your class and role then you should have to hand hold people that are too lazy to put forth the same effort? I'm sorry, I am not against giving out advice or telling people what websites to go to but that is where I draw the line.
    I'd agree to this, but this isn't MMO 1.0 anymore. In a game like EQ I would accept just directing someone to a site and giving a few points because of how MMOs "worked" back then (if you played them, you would know). I'm a strong believer in community, and I have a strict "no tolerance" code for peoples bullcrap when they're keeping to themselves or being complete douche bags to people because they "can". I'm not saying that better players have to discuss things in detail to a new or unskilled player, I'm just saying that if they make a mistake, point it out, help them out, and continue to do so until they get it or otherwise. Sometimes it's not a matter of being lazy, it's just a matter of if they have the time to do all the research or just don't know where to start on huge info sites. Not everyone can be as Savvy as you or I or whoever.

    The unskilled players who refuse to learn should be yes, the skilled players who won't hand hold those people though? That line of thinking is simply ignorant. I do not play games in order to teach baddies how to play. That is not where my fun is derived from, and for that I should be spit on and shunned? Grow up.
    Here's you assuming again, not getting the point, and then proceeding to insult me. Again, I'm not speaking for all skilled players, I'm talking about the ones who are assholes who don't share knowledge, who don't care for community bonds on a large scale, and for those who shun others for not knowing that the Shatterer does an AoE at a certain time. TEACH THEM! If you don't like to, and would rather kick them instantly, then you're no better than the elitist fuckasses for being impatient and not giving someone at least a chance. You're telling me to grow up, but at least I'm willing to MATURELY help someone out even if it's not fun. I do it for the greater good, and as I've stated, I've made many friends in the past this way who've become GREAT players.

    That is quite a strong opinion. Thank god it is only that, and opinion. You know what they say, "opinions are like assholes, most of them stink".
    It's an opinion that holds its' place, and is seen in all MMOs. It's really actually a universal truth. If you have 3 people who are friends and one friend becomes a major asshole, what do you think is going to happen? That one friend is going to get outed. It's natural. So if you have 3 regular MMO players and one is an elitist prick or a terrible player that refuses advice, or even a trolltastic bastard, then that player is going to be outed.

    You're obviously not a team player. I've nothing else to say to you. Have fun being L337 in GW2 by yourself.
    Last edited by Cuchulainn; 2011-12-17 at 12:49 AM.

  8. #48
    @RAWRF:


  9. #49
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airea View Post
    @RAWRF:

    -snip-
    Yeah, I can't stand people like RAWRF. It took everything I had to not rage at him for being an elitist. And if anyone's ever looked at my posting history, then you'd know that I'm not a nice guy most of the time. Only when it's warranted though. In this case, it was most definitely warranted, but seeing as RAWRF is one of those posters who looks at everything in a selfish and objective manner, what's the point of getting on his case, frothing at the mouth?

    The point is; no one should be treated like garbage and ignored because they're a bad player. Do not judge them by how they play, judge them by how they act toward others. RAWRF is just one of those guys who thinks that the game revolves around him, and if you're not a good player, then not a single fuck will be given. What a load of shit.

    Helping players = improving the quality of the community.
    Being a selfish ass = well, you're just an ass.

  10. #50
    That was awesome I hope the Guild Wars community is as bomb as all of you here.
    Last edited by worprz; 2011-12-17 at 03:10 AM.

  11. #51
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worprz View Post
    That was awesome I hope the Guild Wars community is as bomb as all of you here.
    I'm sorry, what was awesome?
    I know after you tell me I'm going to feel like an idiot.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    @RAWRF:


    See, just in your first response to my post does the point go completely over your head. Let me elaborate for you.
    I don't mind truly skilled players at all, there will be a ton of them in GW2 just as there are a ton of them in every Genre of every game. However, this doesn't mean all truly skilled players are elitist assholes (which you're assuming they are, and accusing me of assuming the same). When I speak of Elitist Assholes, I'm talking about the people who won't lift a finger for anyone below their "level" and will proceed to scoff at them for being "lesser" than them.

    Now on to "Stubborn players". Those are the unskilled players that refuse help. The ones who think everything they're doing is right, and everyone else is wrong and/or stupid. Unskilled players in general will not effect the game, but the ones who make running a dungeon a living hell because they refuse help are the ones that will. If only for a short time before getting kicked because they're assholes. Same goes for elitists.


    I'd agree to this, but this isn't MMO 1.0 anymore. In a game like EQ I would accept just directing someone to a site and giving a few points because of how MMOs "worked" back then (if you played them, you would know). I'm a strong believer in community, and I have a strict "no tolerance" code for peoples bullcrap when they're keeping to themselves or being complete douche bags to people because they "can". I'm not saying that better players have to discuss things in detail to a new or unskilled player, I'm just saying that if they make a mistake, point it out, help them out, and continue to do so until they get it or otherwise. Sometimes it's not a matter of being lazy, it's just a matter of if they have the time to do all the research or just don't know where to start on huge info sites. Not everyone can be as Savvy as you or I or whoever.


    Here's you assuming again, not getting the point, and then proceeding to insult me. Again, I'm not speaking for all skilled players, I'm talking about the ones who are assholes who don't share knowledge, who don't care for community bonds on a large scale, and for those who shun others for not knowing that the Shatterer does an AoE at a certain time. TEACH THEM! If you don't like to, and would rather kick them instantly, then you're no better than the elitist fuckasses for being impatient and not giving someone at least a chance. You're telling me to grow up, but at least I'm willing to MATURELY help someone out even if it's not fun. I do it for the greater good, and as I've stated, I've made many friends in the past this way who've become GREAT players.


    It's an opinion that holds its' place, and is seen in all MMOs. It's really actually a universal truth. If you have 3 people who are friends and one friend becomes a major asshole, what do you think is going to happen? That one friend is going to get outed. It's natural. So if you have 3 regular MMO players and one is an elitist prick or a terrible player that refuses advice, or even a trolltastic bastard, then that player is going to be outed.

    You're obviously not a team player. I've nothing else to say to you. Have fun being L337 in GW2 by yourself.
    Thats the thing though. I won't be leet in GW by myself. I will be leet in GW with other leet people and steamroll w/e content they have. This is because I am not a lazy player and I will go out and learn everything I possibly can to be the best I possibly can. While you are sitting around in kindergarten teaching the people who are too lazy to teach themselves I will be having tons of fun with people like me.

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-17 at 03:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    Yeah, I can't stand people like RAWRF. It took everything I had to not rage at him for being an elitist. And if anyone's ever looked at my posting history, then you'd know that I'm not a nice guy most of the time. Only when it's warranted though. In this case, it was most definitely warranted, but seeing as RAWRF is one of those posters who looks at everything in a selfish and objective manner, what's the point of getting on his case, frothing at the mouth?

    The point is; no one should be treated like garbage and ignored because they're a bad player. Do not judge them by how they play, judge them by how they act toward others. RAWRF is just one of those guys who thinks that the game revolves around him, and if you're not a good player, then not a single fuck will be given. What a load of shit.

    Helping players = improving the quality of the community.
    Being a selfish ass = well, you're just an ass.
    As I said, I have no problems offering people advice, but im not going to hold someones hand because they are too lazy to research the relevant info by themselves. But apparently you must have missed that part.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    I'm sorry, what was awesome?
    I know after you tell me I'm going to feel like an idiot.
    Just basically everything you said lol.

  14. #54
    I just hope arenanet actually creates a learning curve for players so they have motivation to get better. blizzards reaction is to mutilate content so the players get their easy shit and never LEARN. It's giving a person to fish and never teaching them how to fish. I'm not bitching about wow being super easy, the hard modes are fine, my problem is amount of bad players to good players is astounding because they just don't ever fucking learn how to be good due to the design of the game.

  15. #55
    How they will affect? they already have, just take a look at LFR, the constant nerfing to already cake-with-chocolate-icing bosses, I'm no elitist but It would be nice to actually do a boss properly and with decent/dangerous abilities, right now I can use my left-hand to masturbate and just mouse-to-click & clicking abilities on my actionbars while looking at Malin Åkerman galleries on my other monitor.


    Oh yeah and before people yell "THEN DONT DO IT, YOU NOOB LOL" I do both regular and normal Dragon Soul, sorta mandatory in my guild when you need to gear up fast.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirakh View Post
    How they will affect? they already have, just take a look at LFR, the constant nerfing to already cake-with-chocolate-icing bosses, I'm no elitist but It would be nice to actually do a boss properly and with decent/dangerous abilities, right now I can use my left-hand to masturbate and just mouse-to-click & clicking abilities on my actionbars while looking at Malin Åkerman galleries on my other monitor.


    Oh yeah and before people yell "THEN DONT DO IT, YOU NOOB LOL" I do both regular and normal Dragon Soul, sorta mandatory in my guild when you need to gear up fast.
    ‎(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

    This is a GW2 forum, buddy.
    Last edited by airea; 2011-12-17 at 04:10 AM.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer Dewote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airea View Post
    ‎(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

    This is a GW2 forum, buddy.
    ┬──┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)

    It seems every gw2 thread should have a gw2 tag, or perhaps a small logo.
    FC 2793-2016-8218 - Name: Suoma

  18. #58
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    Its very obvious that there is difference between the definitions of "help" and "hand-holding." Those values are at different quantities for different people. For all us readers know, RAWRF and Cuchulainn's value of "help" may be at the same value; or they may be very different (which is more likely).

    What IS important in this thread, I think, is that this is a chance for us to help build a good, strong, unified community with-in the game (when it releases). This includes helping one another. It is especially important in the early months because players who have gone further in a short amount of time (beta players, or players who have the time to devote to the game) would have the advantage and it would be up to those players to help the newer players. Please don't misconstrue what I said into "If you make it to max lv first, you have to help everyone." What I AM saying is that those players to make it further, faster will determine the a big part of the community. Building community while leveling will obviously be a very important part of the game, however, think on this: If a player A (more experienced) helps player B (less experienced), do you think player B would be more or less likely to help players who come after them?

    Pay it forward.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Dewote View Post
    ┬──┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)

    It seems every gw2 thread should have a gw2 tag, or perhaps a small logo.
    Or just a warning pop-up before you post,

    [Attention, you are now posting in a Guild Wars 2 thread. Mouthbreathers shall kindly refrain from posting within.]

  20. #60
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewote View Post
    ┬──┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)

    It seems every gw2 thread should have a gw2 tag, or perhaps a small logo.
    They said they we're going to do that weeks ago (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

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